Another simple disproof of Amil: No more sea

[ewq1938]

So...if we consider the imagery given to us from scripture itself...and I hope you concede that doing this is not "spiritualizing", it's being biblically faithful, then it's not far-fetched to suggest that Revelation is not telling us that there will be "no sea" in the new heavens and earth.

Or it is telling us there will be no sea. It is a new world and we should expect some differences.

It is actually telling us that there will be no rebellion and no chaos in the new order. Which, I hope, we should expect and long for.

We already know that about the new Earth and the Eternity. It is unrelated to there not being any sea on the planet. Symbolizing nearly everything is the wrong way to understand the text.

 

[robert derrick]

What did I miss in your post 131?
You should fully address what Paul wrote.

I have. You should try address any specific point I make, and show how it is not proper reasoning of Scripture.

Laying an old blanket of repetition over it, doesn't do it.

 

[jeffweeder]

I have. You should try address any specific point I make, and show how it is not proper reasoning of Scripture.

Laying an old blanket of repetition over it, doesn't do it.

You haven't dealt with the fact that all those who reject the Gospel are eternally separated at his coming from those who are glorified at his coming.
The Lord is clearly coming in vengeance against those who harm us. (Bringing the Church eternal relief)

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


Paul is clearly not a premillennialist.

 

[ewq1938]

You haven't dealt with the fact that all those who reject the Gospel are eternally separated at his coming from those who are glorified at his coming.

That is a false "fact". That does not happen at the second coming.

The Lord is clearly coming in vengeance against those who harm us. (Bringing the Church eternal relief)

This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering. 6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.


Paul is clearly not a premillennialist.

He clearly was.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Interlinear: who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

biblehub.com

You can verify in the link above that the verb tisousin is in the future tense: verb tense: future indicative active.

Amill will AVOID this fact as much as possible because it destroys the false teachings it espouses!

 

[jeffweeder]

That is a false "fact". That does not happen at the second coming.

Paul said it does happen at his appearing; on that same day we are glorified...,


dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day,

This verb is in the present tense in the Greek manuscripts so this “taking vengeance” happens during the second coming.

Thats right. this vengeance is eternal separation from his coming presence. The man of sin is put to an end by the power of his appearing in the following chapter.

The deluding influence on those who persist in unbelief through satans activity comes to an end so they can be judged and condemned.



8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 1

1 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

So is the day of our glorification Lol

 

[ewq1938]

Paul said it does happen at his appearing; on that same day we are glorified...,

No, he expressly said it did not happen on that day, using a future tense verb. He is Premill because he knew the eternal punishment of the wicked was a future event to the Coming. Once again, Amill ignores the verb tense to force the LOF punishment to happen at a time it does not happen. That's classic eisegesis, an Amill foundation.

 

[Naomi25]

Or it is telling us there will be no sea. It is a new world and we should expect some differences.




We already know that about the new Earth and the Eternity. It is unrelated to there not being any sea on the planet. Symbolizing nearly everything is the wrong way to understand the text.

I am far from dogmatic on this issue. Is it possible that Revelation is being far more literal than it seems, leaving the imagery behind? Of course. And I won't be surprised if this is the case.
However, it does bring other questions into it...and granted, they are just as unanswerable.
For example: no sea...well...that suggests that all God created within them will be no more. But...should we assume they won't be in the new heavens and new earth? Why wouldn't they be? Shouldn't we expect that everything that was created in the beginning, and labeled "good", will also be in the new heavens and earth? If the bible is telling us that the nh/ne is basically Eden restored, then shouldn't we ask the question....'why would seas, and everything in them, be "not good""?
Perhaps I'm over-thinking it...but perhaps not. I suppose all we can do as bible students is attempt to look at scripture and be as faithful to the whole text and its meaning as a whole. Easier said than done. And...I find...it comes with a dash of anxiety and expectation. Anxiety that I might get it wrong, and expectation of when God will reveal all. It will be a good day when he does.

 

[jeffweeder]

No, he expressly said it did not happen on that day, using a future tense verb. He is Premill because he knew the eternal punishment of the wicked was a future event to the Coming. Once again, Amill ignores the verb tense to force the LOF punishment to happen at a time it does not happen. That's classic eisegesis, an Amill foundation.

Oh my.
The glorification of his people is also future tense as he expressly said it happens on the day of eternal separation. v8-9

 

[ewq1938]

Oh my.
The glorification of his people is also future tense as he expressly said it happens on the day of eternal separation. v8-9

You continue to avoid the issue that proves your doctrine wrong:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

 

[jeffweeder]

You continue to avoid the issue that proves your doctrine wrong:

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;


“shall be punished” is in the FUTURE TENSE which means that the everlasting destruction ie: GWTJ/LOF is NOT happening at the second coming but is a FUTURE event after the second coming just as Premill teaches and exactly opposite of what Amill teaches.

Lol. The avoidance is all yours.
Finish the above sentence above ewq...,in red below
. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day,

Future event AT the second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

Lol. The avoidance is all yours.
Finish the above sentence above ewq...,in red below
. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day,

Future event AT the second coming.

That isn't the second coming. It's the day of the GWTJ when he comes to that location. The second coming was mentioned by Paul in verses 7-8. 9-10 is a day that is FUTURE to the second coming (future tense means it happens in the future in case you didn't know that)


The part YOU are avoiding (all Amills avoid it) is that pesky future tense verb Paul used placing the LOF eternal punishment past the second coming.

 

[jeffweeder]

That isn't the second coming. It's the day of the GWTJ when he comes to that location. The second coming was mentioned by Paul in verses 7-8. 9-10 is a day that is FUTURE to the second coming (future tense means it happens in the future in case you didn't know that)


The part YOU are avoiding (all Amills avoid it) is that pesky future tense verb Paul used placing the LOF eternal punishment past the second coming.

If you want to avoid the obvious, then go ahead.

Paul repeats the timing of the eternal punishment of chap 1 in his second chapter..,


8 Then the lawless one [the Antichrist] will be revealed and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of His mouth and bring him to an end by the appearance of His coming.

9 The coming of the [Antichrist, the lawless] one is through the activity of Satan, [attended] with great power [all kinds of counterfeit miracles] and [deceptive] signs and false wonders [all of them lies], 10 and by unlimited seduction to evil and with all the deception of wickedness for those who are perishing, because they did not welcome the love of the truth [of the gospel] so as to be saved [they were spiritually blind, and rejected the truth that would have saved them]. 11 Because of this God will send upon them a misleading influence, [an activity of error and deception] so they will believe the lie, 12 in order that all may be judged and condemned who did not believe the truth [about their sin, and the need for salvation through Christ], but instead took pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Truth7t7]

With all due respect, I do wonder if you're missing not only what Amillennialists say about this text, but what the bible itself is saying.
The 'sea' is often used to portray, image wise, chaos, especially throughout the OT. If you do a search for terms like 'sea monster', 'Leviathan', 'Rahab', 'dragon'...all these terms are often used, and in conjunction with the sea, to represent chaos, rebellion against God.
Some examples:


Isaiah 27:1
[1] In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. (ESV)

Psalm 74:13–14
[13] You divided the sea by your might;
you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters.
[14] You crushed the heads of Leviathan;
you gave him as food for the creatures of the wilderness. (ESV)

Psalm 89:9–10
[9] You rule the raging of the sea;
when its waves rise, you still them.
[10] You crushed Rahab like a carcass;
you scattered your enemies with your mighty arm. (ESV)

Isaiah 51:9–10
[9] Awake, awake, put on strength,
O arm of the LORD;
awake, as in days of old,
the generations of long ago.
Was it not you who cut Rahab in pieces,
who pierced the dragon?
[10] Was it not you who dried up the sea,
the waters of the great deep,
who made the depths of the sea a way
for the redeemed to pass over? (ESV)

So...if we consider the imagery given to us from scripture itself...and I hope you concede that doing this is not "spiritualizing", it's being biblically faithful, then it's not far-fetched to suggest that Revelation is not telling us that there will be "no sea" in the new heavens and earth. It is actually telling us that there will be no rebellion and no chaos in the new order. Which, I hope, we should expect and long for.

I believe many times "Sea" "Sand" and "Waters" in the Bible symbolizes masses of people

Revelation 13:1 The Beast rises out of the "Sea" this represents "People" not rebellion or Chaos

Revelation 17:1 the whore sits upon many waters, this is multitudes of "People" just as Revelation 17:15 below clearly teaches

Revelation 17:15KJV
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[ewq1938]

If you want to avoid the obvious, then go ahead.

You are the one avoiding the issue. That future tense verb Paul used shows he is Premill and also shows Amill is wrong about the GWTJ and LOF happening at the second coming. That proves Amill is a false doctrine.

 

[robert derrick]

With all due respect, I do wonder if you're missing not only what Amillennialists say about this text,

Yes I do. You say there is a sea on the new earth, no matter that the Scripture says, so that you can make this earth the new earth, and so say there is no thousand year reign of Jesus Christ on this earth, before it becomes the new earth.

I now know all about it from Millennium unbelievers, by what is posted on this site.

but what the bible itself is saying.
The 'sea' is often used to portray,

When plainly spoken words of Scripture are made only symbols, in order to change the normal meaning of Scripture, then the Bible is made into just another book of fables of men.

For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

There's no harm in trying to spiritualize any Scripture we want, but not at the cost of it's plain natural meaning.

If a child can understand something, such as there will be no sea on the new earth, then so must the adults.

We can perhaps ask why not, but we must not contradict it and say, yes there will be a sea on the new earth, no matter what God says.

In part, I personally believe there will be no sea on the new earth, just so God can say so, and see if unbelievers in His Millennium will go so far as to reject His plainly spoken word, about there being no sea on His new earth.

Or symbolize it away as a fable only.

image wise, chaos, especially throughout the OT. If you do a search for terms like 'sea monster', 'Leviathan', 'Rahab', 'dragon'...all these terms are often used, and in conjunction with the sea, to represent chaos, rebellion against God.

True. Sometimes we don't have to spiritualize nor symbolize Scripture into something else, because normal sense tells us, when words of Scripture are symbols with spiritual teaching.

But not the case with the Red Sea waves parting, nor there being no sea on the new earth.

If there being no sea on the new earth is only a symbol, then the new earth itself is nothing but a fable as well.

So...if we consider the imagery given to us from scripture itself...and I hope you concede that doing this is not "spiritualizing", it's being biblically faithful,

True. In the Scriptures you quoted.

then it's not far-fetched to suggest that Revelation is not telling us that there will be "no sea" in the new heavens and earth.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

No, it's not far fetched. Just plainly false.

The problem is when we adults, get too smart for our own good, just so we can keep hold of our favorite traditions about the things of God.

I would never tell a child reading Revelation 21, that there really is a sea on the new earth, and make a fable out of Scripture, so that little child then begins to wonder what other parts of the Bible are just symbolic fables.

It is actually telling us that there will be no rebellion and no chaos in the new order. Which, I hope, we should expect and long for.

True.

The same on this earth in Jesus' millennial reign.

At least not on a national level, though He will withhold rain from any nation, that comes not to keep the feast of tabernacles with Him.

 

[robert derrick]

Or it is telling us there will be no sea. It is a new world and we should expect some differences.




We already know that about the new Earth and the Eternity. It is unrelated to there not being any sea on the planet. Symbolizing nearly everything is the wrong way to understand the text.

I like two specific things about you. You only argue from what is written, without trying to make things up, or change Scripture for your own teaching.

And you do the same courtesy for others, by specifically addressing their points, whether you agree with them or not.

And if you disagree, then you stick to the point, without getting childishly personal about it. I really do sometimes wonder how old some of the people are on this site.

I believe part of being 'fearful and unbelieving' as to do with people, that truly are so afraid of their doctrine falling apart, that they really do blind themselves to any correction or objection of others.

It's what the unbelieving Jews still do, when reading OT Scriptures, by putting the vail of Moses over their faces, so that they can't see him prophesying of Jesus as the Christ come in the flesh.

Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

 

[WPM]

You are the one avoiding the issue. That future tense verb Paul used shows he is Premill and also shows Amill is wrong about the GWTJ and LOF happening at the second coming. That proves Amill is a false doctrine.

Hello! Amils believe the GWT and LOF happen at the second coming. That is the future. You totally negate your own argument.

 

[robert derrick]

You haven't dealt with the fact that all those who reject the Gospel

Which does not include babes and little children that don't even know there is a decision to make.

And yet, your unjust prophecy would have them all wiped out.

Your prophecy of the Lord's coming again is false.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

are eternally separated at his coming from those who are glorified at his coming.
The Lord is clearly coming in vengeance against those who harm us. (Bringing the Church eternal relief)

You haven't acknowledged the fact that Paul begins with them that trouble Christians.

Nor the fact, that not every believer tries to trouble Christians.

If you say there are no such unbelievers, then you are detached from reality, of the wrong spirit, and lack righteous judgment.

 

[jeffweeder]

Which does not include babes and little children that don't even know there is a decision to make.

And yet, your unjust prophecy would have them all wiped out.

Your prophecy of the Lord's coming again is false.

It is not my prophecy and God knows those who are his. God has appointed Jesus as the righteous judge on the last day. It is not our concern what happens to children and babes. God will judge righteously these things not us.

But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.




You haven't acknowledged the fact that Paul begins with them that trouble Christians.

Nor the fact, that not every believer tries to trouble Christians.

If you say there are no such unbelievers, then you are detached from reality, of the wrong spirit, and lack righteous judgment.

Paul is commending those who endure and persevere in tribulation in the Thessalonian congregation. They will be accounted as worthy of the kingdom.
The Lord first and foremost is coming in vengeance to execute Gods righteous judgment against all who have rejected the Gospel.
He does this on the day he appears to glorify us. It's the final judgment as it is eternal.



4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]


Act 17
30 Therefore God overlooked and disregarded the former ages of ignorance; but now He commands all people everywhere to repent [that is, to change their old way of thinking, to regret their past sins, and to seek God’s purpose for their lives], 31 because He has set a day when He will judge the inhabited world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed and destined for that task, and He has provided credible proof to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[robert derrick]

Paul is commending those who endure and persevere in tribulation in the Thessalonian congregation. They will be accounted as worthy of the kingdom.

Well, at least you acknowledge the point.

Paul is speaking of those troubling the church, not of those who don't care one way or the other about the church.

The Lord first and foremost is coming in vengeance to execute Gods righteous judgment against all who have rejected the Gospel.

Against all those gathered to make war against Him and His saints.

He does this on the day he appears to glorify us. It's the final judgment as it is eternal.

True all judgment of God is final and never changes. He will make that judgment after this heaven and earth is burnt up and flees from His face. Which is after the thousand years of Christ's earthly reign expires.