the 7th Trump

[David in NJ]

No, he would be a futurist but not the first one.

Yeah, i had it backwards......dealing with too much pain right now while climbing trees.

I am scheduled for May 24th hip replacement surgery

i find it a little comical with all the labels that people like to fall under - is there a identity crisis amongst the saints?

Are you sure HE did not come Back already and we are "left-behind" - lol

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ah, the old head in the sand approach and the hope the truth goes away. This is nothing more than a weak, feeble, attempt to stop conversing because you have no answers to the truth of the Word of God.

This is a lie. Did you know that lying is a sin? Do you care? You did not explain how you came to your conclusions. That is a fact. What is the point of conversing if you don't want to bother explaining how you come to your conclusions?

The truth doesn't line up with your preconceived ideas so head in the sand. I showed you in one coming the Lord Himself comes as the bridegroom comes for the bride. I showed you in another coming that He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

I've already told you that each passage about a particular event contains different details about that event. Just because 1 Thess 4:14-17 doesn't specifically mention the angels does not mean that passage can't be talking about the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. Not all passages about the second coming contain all the same details. Your approach to interpreting scripture is ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yeah, i had it backwards......dealing with too much pain right now while climbing trees.

I am scheduled for May 24th hip replacement surgery

i find it a little comical with all the labels that people like to fall under - is there a identity crisis amongst the saints?

Are you sure HE did not come Back already and we are "left-behind" - lol

I'm not a big fan of labels, but they do make it easier to identify what someone believes without them having to explain it over and over again.

 

[Zao is life]

Maybe the Two-Tribs and Two-Rapts can get together under the Mid-Trib banner? Not sure. ???

'Aint no political solution to a theological problem. Unless you're Catholic and the other Eastern Orthodox. Then you can have two bishops excommunicating one another.

Throw that onto the stage too.

 

[Zao is life]

What is a Preterist?

Someone who believes Jesus returned in 70 A.D in a spiritual sense and everything written in the Revelation, 2 Thessalonians 2, etc, has already taken place. There's a box with a label for Christians who believe the same.

 

[Zao is life]

For now, people are as blind fools, unable to find the truth. Daniel 12:4

My suggestion to everyone is, Keep calm, avoid making unbiblical and fanciful guesswork, especially do not teach and promote fables, as we surely are in the time Paul said would come. 2 Timothy 4:3-4
We must - Wait for the Day! [new thread]

I have a feeling there's more written on your keep calm t shirt. It has to do with whose fables we should follow.

 

[David in NJ]

Someone who believes Jesus returned in 70 A.D in a spiritual sense and everything written in the Revelation, 2 Thessalonians 2, etc, has already taken place.

Well, that is what we call 'plain crazy'....

 

[Zao is life]

Well, that is what we call 'plain crazy'....

A Preterist is also a package delivered by FedEx that was supposed to have the New Testament in it. Instead it had an interpretation of the New Testament written by someone who did not know that the Old Covenant ended with the death of Christ, not in 70 A.D.

Typical FedEx.

 

[Zao is life]

Oh boy.
This is quite the circus.

I thought everyone was Pre-Trib before I came on this thread.
All of a sudden everyone switched to Post-Trib/Premil.
I mean, except for the Preterists and... never hear from the Mid-Tribbers anymore... ???

Now we have a 3.5 yr Tribulation, or two Tribulations. And two Raptures, and ... ???
Think I'll stick with my Post-Toasties stance for now. (until the dust settles)

Maybe the Two-Tribs and Two-Rapts can get together under the Mid-Trib banner? Not sure. ???

Imagine how nice it would be if the Pre-Tribbers were correct. Nice for Christians. Not so nice for the rest, no matter how nice they are. I believe for some the great tribulation is nice from far but it's going to be far from nice when it's not too far. Kind of like the person you don't want to invite to your party but know you have to.

 

[David in NJ]

Imagine how nice it would be if the Pre-Tribbers were correct. Nice for Christians. Not so nice for the rest, no matter how nice they are. I believe for some the great tribulation is nice from far but it's going to be far from nice when it's not too far. Kind of like the person you don't want to invite to your party but know you have to.

Who does not want pre-trib to be true???

i wish it were true - but you cannot make a wish that changes "It is written".

 

[Zao is life]

I am scheduled for May 24th hip replacement surgery

Hang in there. Not too long now. Neighbor of mine had hers done last year. She said it has helped her a whole lot.

 

[David in NJ]

Hang in there. Not too long now. Neighbor of mine had hers done last year. She said it has helped her a whole lot.

This is what everyone who had one tells me.

 

[Olin]

God is not the author of confusion but religion is.

It is irrefutable Scriptural Truth that there will be only One Second Coming of Christ = Hebrews 9:28
"Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many; and He will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await Him."

Confirming this Truth is that there will be one last Trumpet sound at the Second Coming of Christ and the Resurrection of the dead in Him:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Revelation 10:7

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God,
and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled, just as He proclaimed to His servants the prophets.”

The Irrefutable Validation of this Truth is SEEN in 1 Thess 1:10 , 2 Thess ch2 and Revelation 11:15-18

"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come."

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

It certainly makes sense that the last of the seven trumpets sounded by angels would be called the last trumpet. An angel also sounds it. That comes with the Lord a second time. That's why it's a safe bet to say the resurrection of the two witnesses must be part of the general resurrection of God's people. That would make God's words in Revelation 11 be the specific command of the Lord to come up and meet Him. It also means the catching up of the church could be in the sight of people all around the world. Maybe their angry afterward because they remain stuck on earth.

 

[St. SteVen]

Imagine how nice it would be if the Pre-Tribbers were correct. Nice for Christians.

Typical of Christianity. "I got mine... to hell with everyone else."

Not so nice for the rest, no matter how nice they are. I believe for some the great tribulation is nice from far but it's going to be far from nice when it's not too far. Kind of like the person you don't want to invite to your party but know you have to.

Nice. - LOL

 

[The Light]

This is a lie. Did you know that lying is a sin? Do you care? You did not explain how you came to your conclusions. That is a fact. What is the point of conversing if you don't want to bother explaining how you come to your conclusions?

I explained the conclusions in part. There is so much to explain as to why there is more than one coming of the Lord that it's not a ten minute Job.

Here I showed you that those raptured to heaven at the sixth seal are singing the song of Moses as they are Jews.

Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Additionally, here is the only lie that has been told. Here is your quote which does not appear to be the truth.

"You're just saying things without explaining how you come to your conclusions. That's pointless. I'm not going to waste my time reading any further since you don't bother explaining how exactly you are coming to your conclusions."

I've already told you that each passage about a particular event contains different details about that event. Just because 1 Thess 4:14-17 doesn't specifically mention the angels does not mean that passage can't be talking about the same event as Matthew 24:29-31. Not all passages about the second coming contain all the same details. Your approach to interpreting scripture is ridiculous.

Your approach to look past all the details is why you do not understand the Word of God. The Master is at the door and you do not see Him coming.

 

[Zao is life]

I explained the conclusions in part. There is so much to explain as to why there is more than one coming of the Lord that it's not a ten minute Job.

Here I showed you that those raptured to heaven at the sixth seal are singing the song of Moses as they are Jews.

Rev 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Additionally, here is the only lie that has been told. Here is your quote which does not appear to be the truth.

"You're just saying things without explaining how you come to your conclusions. That's pointless. I'm not going to waste my time reading any further since you don't bother explaining how exactly you are coming to your conclusions."


Your approach to look past all the details is why you do not understand the Word of God. The Master is at the door and you do not see Him coming.

Exodus 15
1 Then the sons of Moses and Israel sang this song to the LORD, and spoke, saying, I will sing to the LORD, for He has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider He has thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and song, and He has become my salvation. He is my God, and I will glorify Him, my father's God, and I will exalt Him.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire. And those who had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvelous are Your works, Lord God Almighty, just and true are Your ways, O King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You only are holy. For all nations shall come and worship before You, for Your righteousnesses were made known.

Note: Your righteousnesses were made known is past tense.

The thing about the song of Moses is this: It was sung after they had crossed the red sea, AFTER they had been delivered from great tribulation at the hand of Pharaoh, and AFTER the judgment of Pharaoh and his armies (the beast and his armies) = their redemption.

Remember too that God's people were still in Egypt while the plagues were being poured out upon Pharaoh, and God's two witnesses (Moses and Aaron) were bringing the plagues of God upon Egypt.

So much like the Revelation: In the midst of the 6th plague of the 7 last plagues (which are also bowls of wrath) Jesus interjects,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame." (Rev.16:15).

The 7th and last plague is the judgment of the beast, and God's people were kept from the last plague to come upon Egypt (the death of the firstborn) through their faith in THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB.

But you have your own ideas about the significance of the song of Moses being sung by those who had gained victory over the mark of the beast.

Bear in mind that the chapter divisions in the Revelation were inserted into the text in 1227 A.D, and understand that Revelation chapters 14:1 to 15:4 are talking about what happens immediately before and after the final judgments of God (the seven last plagues), and Revelation 15:5 to the end of chapter 16 are a description of those plagues, the 7th one being the final judgment/plague/bowl of wrath - the type of which is the destruction | judgment of Pharaoh's armies in the sea.

Jesus will return for His flock immediately before this, as He states in Revelation 16:15, just as God's people were delivered from the hand of Pharaoh through the sea immediately before the final judgment of Pharaoh and his armies. The descriptions in Revelation 13 are seen "with" all this. The Revelation is not a chronology but an unveiling.

You talk about the song of Moses but fail to understand the typology and what the typology points to, what it's telling us.

 

[Keraz]

Here I showed you that those raptured to heaven at the sixth seal are singing the song of Moses as they are Jews.

Rev 15

Gross errors!
The multitude in heaven are the souls of all the dead martyrs. Proved by Revelation 6:9-11
God allows them to cry out at times.

The Sixth Seal will be a worldwide Judgment and punishment. It will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:34-36 We need to ask God for the strength to endure it and to trust Him for our protection thru it all.

The Jews will be gone = Isaiah 22:1-14 describes their demise very well. Only a remnant will remain.

 

[The Light]

Gross errors!
The multitude in heaven are the souls of all the dead martyrs. Proved by Revelation 6:9-11
God allows them to cry out at times.

The souls under the altar are not all the souls that were martyred. They are the souls of those that are martyred in the great tribulation. The dead in Christ have already risen.

The Sixth Seal will be a worldwide Judgment and punishment.

Not correct at all. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. The seventh seal is the wrath of God.

It will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Luke 21:34-36

You seem to be missing this. Watch therefore that we be accounted worthy to escapte all these things that will come to pass, AND STAND BEFORE THE SON OF MAN.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We need to ask God for the strength to endure it and to trust Him for our protection thru it all.

Here are the instructions. I see nothing that tells me we need to endure it.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You can pray for strength to endure if you so choose. I'm sticking with the Word on this one.

The Jews will be gone = Isaiah 22:1-14 describes their demise very well. Only a remnant will remain.

The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured to heaven at the 6th seal, which is why they are singing the song of Moses before the throne. There is a reason there are 144,000 first fruits. The reason is there is going to be a harvest.

The remnant will be those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection as instructed. The Church will be in heaven before the seals are opened. The beleivers from the 12 tribes will be raptured at the 6th seal.

Jacob had two brides. The fig tree has two harvests

 

[Keraz]

The souls under the altar are not all the souls that were martyred. They are the souls of those that are martyred in the great tribulation. The dead in Christ have already risen.

Read Revelation 6:9-11. Obviously, the martyrs there are all the Christians killed for their faith since Stephen. His soul was taken to heaven and he 'sleeps' under the Altar.

Not correct at all. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth. The seventh seal is the wrath of God.

This assertion is quite wakadoodle. Jesus does not Return at the Sixth Seal, He is not even seen then. The people who dive for cover as the Lord's wrath strikes, do that to avoid being seen by Him.
The Seventh Seal is a time gap, nothing more.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming....... Revised English Bible.
The REB translates this passage correctly, To say 'escape' makes a contradiction of the previous verse and of many other scriptures.

I know that v 36 is one of the main 'rapture to heaven', so called proof texts. But it does NOT say anyone can avoid being on earth during the end times events.

The beleivers from the 12 tribes will be raptured at the 6th seal.

According to your beliefs, an Eskimo Christian will be left behind?

 

[The Light]

Read Revelation 6:9-11. Obviously, the martyrs there are all the Christians killed for their faith since Stephen. His soul was taken to heaven and he 'sleeps' under the Altar.

As I said, the dead in Christ have already risen. See the kings and priest of Rev 5

This assertion is quite wakadoodle. Jesus does not Return at the Sixth Seal, He is not even seen then.

Jesus comes at the 6th seal as marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The people who dive for cover as the Lord's wrath strikes, do that to avoid being seen by Him.
The Seventh Seal is a time gap, nothing more.

The seventh seal is the trumpets of wrath.

Luke 21:36 Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass safely through all that is coming....... Revised English Bible.
The REB translates this passage correctly, To say 'escape' makes a contradiction of the previous verse and of many other scriptures.

Can't agree with the translation.

I know that v 36 is one of the main 'rapture to heaven', so called proof texts. But it does NOT say anyone can avoid being on earth during the end times events.

There is a great multitude in heaven that returns to earth with the armies of heaven. There are plenty of verses that show a rapture to heaven.

According to your beliefs, an Eskimo Christian will be left behind?

I you want to know what I believe, just read the Bible........a proper translation.