The Light
Well-Known Member
So the question is when will the heavens disappear and be laid bare. That can occur at the 6th seal, the seventh trumpet or at the end of 1000 years?What do you mean? I believe the wrath that it talks about occurring on the entire earth on "that day" is described here:
2 Peter 3:10 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.
What you do not understand is that Christ returns to the clouds at the 6th seal. Christ returns to the earth at the end of the trumpets. When Christ returns for the harvest at the 6th seal, He is not coming for the Church as they are already in heaven before the seals are opened. See Revelation 4 and 5.I believe that on the day Christ returns we will first be caught up to meet Him in the air and then what is described above will happen. Why can't it happen that way?
It's really hard for us to communicate brother, as terms mean certain things to you and something different to me. Since you quote the verses of 2 Peter 3 why do you not notice this?You say that, but do nothing to explain why that can't be the case. How can I take you seriously when you just say things without any explanation to back them up?
You're not making any sense. The idea of heaven and earth passing away at His second coming is not just taught in that passage. It's also taught in passages like 2 Peter 3:3-13.
2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
So when you say the day of the Lord, you seem to be unaware that it lasts 1000 years. So when I am citing my explanations I am thinking that heaven and earth pass away at the end of 1000 years. You think it happens with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. I don't think you understand that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and then the 1-year wrath of God begins. Jesus returns after the year as He remains in heaven with His bride.
From these remarks I am concluding that you think the seals are already opened. You think that the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse have been riding since before World War 1?You have to be kidding me. That is not at all what Jesus was saying. You continue to ignore that He said we will escape the things that will happen on "that day", which will be the day He returns. Do you somehow not know that earthquakes, "nations rising against nations, famines, pestilences" have already been going on? Jesus said those things will happen, and they have been happening, but they do not indicate that the end is at hand just yet. Nowhere did He indicate that anyone would be taken off of the earth before those things happen. That's ridiculous. If that was going to be the case the rapture would have occurred before World War 1.
Daniel 9The 70th week was fulfilled long ago. That was when Jesus confirmed the new covenant which put an end to the old covenant animal sacrifices and offerings. You couldn't have all of this more wrong if you tried.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
You have another incorrect premise. It is the people of the prince that shall come that shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. This has not occurred yet. It is talking about the destruction of the 3rd Temple.
I think He comes for the church shortly after that. The 6th seal indicates that His one and only future coming is at hand at that point and then it actually happens with the 7th seal. That's why heaven is silent at that point because everyone (Jesus, His angels, the souls of the dead in Christ) will have descended from heaven.
The Church is in heaven before the seals are opened. When the Church is raptured, the fullness of the Gentiles will have come in. God will turn His attention to the Jews and part of them will have their eyes opened. That will be the seed of the woman. There will be 144,000 first fruits taken to heaven, seen here.
Revelation 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
If there are acceptable first fruits, that means there will be a harvest, seen here.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Proven here, that they are of the 12 tribes as they sing the song of Moses.
Revelation 14
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
You miss so much brother. The real problem is that those that believe in a pretrib rapture don't understand that there is a post tribulation rapture. They think that the tribulation and the wrath of God are the same thing. They are not. This is why you think you are correct in that you understand that there is a rapture at the 6th seal. And yet you don't understand WHO is raptured at the 6th seal. You don't understand that the fig tree has two harvests. You don't understand that one coming it will be like the days of Noah and one coming will be like the days of Lot. Noah was in the ark 7 days BEFORE the flood even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before the end.That is complete nonsense and not taught anywhere in scripture.