The 144,000 before God at the end.

[rebuilder 454]

Joseph is the biblical type of Jesus. Jacob is the patriarch of Israel.

Joseph had one bride - a Gentile woman. His two sons were born to him in Egypt. They were Gentiles but were still the seed of Israel, their great-great grandfather.

What you are doing is attempting to complicate the types and shadows dynamic.
A "type" is not a mirror. The type has illustrations within it, but is not an exact clone.
But beside that, your replacement theology is not biblical and your analogy is flawed because both Jew and Gentile make up "one new man" espoused to Christ.
Remember, omission is your doctrines friend.
That is why you need the Jewish wife/gentile bride dynamic voided out of Gods word.
The bride becomes the wife in heaven at the marriage supper as vividly depicted in rev 19.

The parable of the wedding supper has stages of attendance.
Yet another pesky component your doctrine can not possibly reconcile.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Imagined second harvest?

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The Word says there are two harvests. The fathers of Israel were seen as first fruits of the fig tree at HER FIRST TIME. The fig tree has two harvests. FACT.

Israel will now be the second harvest. And please don't waste your time with we are all Israel, as I understand that. But I also understand the TIMING of the Word of God.

It is the Wave Offering of the first fruits unto God. You ought to know what that is and the harvest that follows when the wave offering is acceptable.


Great and they are not Old Testament saints.


Out of context regarding the 144,000 first fruits of the SECOND HARVEST, which occurs at the 6th seal.,

They have no clue about first fruits.
Their doctrine draws a blank.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Gen 7:11-13

Read it again. God told Noah seven days beforehand that he must get himself and all the animals into the ark. It was not until the 7th day that Noah entered the ark - the day the flood waters were opened:

1 And the LORD said to Noah, You and all your house come into the ark, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation.
2 You shall take with you every clean animal by sevens, the male and female. And take two of the animals that are not clean, the male and female.
3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made.
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in. And his sons and his wife and his sons' wives went in with him into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of the clean animals, and of the animals that were not clean, and of the fowls, and of everything that creeps on the earth,
9 two by two they went in to Noah into the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it happened after seven days that the waters of the flood came into being on the earth.

I suppose you believe that Noah got all the animals into the ark on the same day that the flood came?

It took seven days. And on the 7th day, Noah obeyed the final part of the command - got himself and his family into the ark:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Gen 7:11-13

So what you say above is as much gibberish as what you say below, because you based what you say below on what you said above:
​

hahaha. You just proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that you need to read Genesis 7 some more because you have changed what it's saying in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with a pre-trib rature fantasy.

Noah returned to earth post trib/ post flood.
After leaving PREFLOOD and dwelling over a mile into the sky. Ahem, DURING the trib/flood
Omission is your friend once again.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Gen 7:11-13

Read it again. God told Noah seven days beforehand that he must get himself and all the animals into the ark. It was not until the 7th day that Noah entered the ark - the day the flood waters were opened:

1 And the LORD said to Noah, You and all your house come into the ark, for I have seen you righteous before Me in this generation.
2 You shall take with you every clean animal by sevens, the male and female. And take two of the animals that are not clean, the male and female.
3 Also take of the fowls of the air by sevens, the male and the female, to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth.
4 For in seven more days I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And I will destroy from off the face of the earth every living thing that I have made.
5 And Noah did according to all that the LORD commanded him.
6 And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth.
7 And Noah went in. And his sons and his wife and his sons' wives went in with him into the ark, because of the waters of the flood.
8 Of the clean animals, and of the animals that were not clean, and of the fowls, and of everything that creeps on the earth,
9 two by two they went in to Noah into the ark, male and female, as God had commanded Noah.
10 And it happened after seven days that the waters of the flood came into being on the earth.

I suppose you believe that Noah got all the animals into the ark on the same day that the flood came?

It took seven days. And on the 7th day, Noah obeyed the final part of the command - got himself and his family into the ark:

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of the heavens were opened up. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.
In this same day, Noah and Shem and Ham and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, entered into the ark. -- Gen 7:11-13

So what you say above is as much gibberish as what you say below, because you based what you say below on what you said above:
​

hahaha. You just proved beyond the shadow of any doubt that you need to read Genesis 7 some more because you have changed what it's saying in order to attempt to force scripture to comply with a pre-trib rature fantasy.

noah entered before the flood and went into the sky.
Returned to earth post flood.
Change it, omit it, cleverly cover it.
It is not going anywhere.
Must be disheartening, how you guys get owned big time by the bible.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The first fruits are NOT OLD COVENANT SAINTS.

Hosea 6
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first fruits OF THE FIRST HARVEST, but they served Baalpeor, so they would not be the first fruits of the first harvest.

The Gentiles will be the first harvest, which is the harvest of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME.

After the rapture of the Church, part of Israel will have it's eyes opened.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

After the rapture of the Church, there are 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. This harvest takes place immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God at the 6th seal.

Exactly.
Firstfruit ethnic Jews.
Eternally canonized as such in Gods word.
The people you are talking to disagree with the bible.
That is a fact.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please post the Scriptural reference that describes God's faithful obedient saints through the ages as "pesky".
No gymnastics at all for the spiritually discerning. Foolishness to all others. 1 Corinthians 2:14
Thank you God for the records of your faithful obedient saints through the ages.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…the Church is written all over the 144,000.

No verses are pesky to pretribs as your basis of theories is one of omissions.
So all the pretrib rapture verses are in fact pesky to you as you continually demonstrate by attempts to void them.

You left out that the 144k are the only ones sealed in their foreheads.
Yet your doctrine has always pointed out that we are all sealed at salvation.( correctly so)
So your doctrine has God confused and resealing the 144k in their foreheads, which you are attempting to reframe as the gentile church.
Not to mention we can see their designation as FIRST FRUITS immediately before the main harvest DURING THE TRIB.
Hello...firstfruits precedes main harvest.
You need a new strategy.


Nice try though.
Not really. Grand canyon leap as you jettison the obvious.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Error #1 - "ethnic" Jews

Revelation does not speak of 144k "ethnic" Jews.

Revelation speaks of the Body and Bride of Christ = just as Rev ch7 and Rev ch21 , Gospel , Ephesians , Galatians , Romans , Acts declare

It even lists the tribes they are from.
So obvious it is painful seeing you guys dance around the facts.
Nothing of their description points to some made up analogy of the church.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Error #1 - "ethnic" Jews

Revelation does not speak of 144k "ethnic" Jews.

Revelation speaks of the Body and Bride of Christ = just as Rev ch7 and Rev ch21 , Gospel , Ephesians , Galatians , Romans , Acts declare

Your attempts to void them out are unbelievably weak.
They are a thorn in your doctrine big time

 

[rebuilder 454]

Bible= 144k firstfruit ethnic Jews separated during the GT.

Some members here on the board= nope bible is wrong.

That is a fact.

 

[PinSeeker]

Quote;"Noah and his family are representative of the church in the flood story"
Good point.

Thank you...

They enter the ark' a type of heaven prefood/ pretrib and the door is shut, as in the virgin parable, then as you point out, noah ( as you say the church) returns post trib/ flood.

No, the ark is a type, or shadow of Christ ~ it is representative of Christ, Whom we, having been born again of the Holy Spirit, and thus a new creation in Christ, are now in. We are no longer in Adam but in Christ.

No one was removed from the flood, but some ~ Noah and his family, of course ~ were carried through it, and protected from its destruction. And that's God's promise throughout Scripture, not that He will remove us from any kind of trouble, but that He will always be with us in the midst of it, that He will never leave us or forsake us, that He even though we walk through the valley of the shadow of death, He is always with us, protecting us and even preparing a table before us in the midst of our enemies.

Great pretrib rapture depiction by Jesus himself confirmed several times, in the next few sentences of that description, he so vividly declared and confirmed.

Disagree. What you say here is kind of what I was getting at in the other thread when I said that thinking the parables have "components" and that they are a "story within a story" can be a dangerous way of thinking. Not to say that it always leads one into falsehoods, but that it can lead to... well, in the negative sense, "creativity." :)

The parable is meant to convey the suddenness of the return of Christ and the need to prepare beforehand and to be ready. Just as Noah was ready for the flood that God said would come. As I said, Jesus, in Matthew 24, said the suddenness and unexpectedness of His return would be as the suddenness and unexpectedness of the coming of the flood in Noah's day:

"For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man" (Matthew 24:37-39)

Quite obviously, it's not about the flood itself or the timing of the return in relation to it, but about it's manner, it's suddenness and unexpectedness. And he sums it up by saying:

"Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect" (Matthew 24:44)

And this is what I was actually intimating before, Rebuilder, that we should... well, to be very succinct, that we should be careful with Scripture (as we are told in Revelation 22).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Bible= 144k firstfruit ethnic Jews separated during the GT.

There's a partial hardening now on Israel, as we know (Romans 11). But there is no "separation" ~ there is no Jew or Greek/Gentile, but we are all one in Christ. And even in the midst of this tribulation, God is with us, Jesus as He said He would be at the end of Matthew 28, and of course the Holy Spirit.

The 144,000 of the first half of Revelation 7 (verses 1-8) are the same group of people as the innumerable multitude of the latter part (verses 9-17) of that chapter. Verses 1-8 convey the true Jewish heritage of all of God's Israel (which includes Jew and Gentile alike) in the very sense that Paul speaks of true Jews in Romans 2:28-29. The number is symbolic of the "complete completeness" of God's people, all His elect. (12 tribes of Israel of the Old Testament times 12 disciples/apostles of the New Testament times 1000). The latter part is the link to the promise to Abraham to make this people as the sands on the seashore, as the stars in the heavens, that no one can number.

Some members here on the board= nope bible is wrong.

That is a fact.

In... your opinion. And I would think anyone would be ~ I certainly am ~ okay with you saying the same back to them/me.

Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 19 is the second coming and it is not by any means the rapture.
Besides that, the second coming on white horses also can not be the dead in Christ resurrection because rev 14 gathering is during the trib., which PRECEDES the white horse 2nd coming.
That means your doctrine disagrees that the dead in christ precede the living.
Also all take the mark or die in the trib.
So there is no believers by the end of the trib.
It even says the innumerable number are in heaven abd came out of the great trib.
That is just a few that your doctrine left out.
Omission is the only way for your doctrine to have traction, as your post vividly illustrates

Revelation 19 does not say that is the Second Coming. That is you adding to the text.

The Second Coming is to the Mount of Olives. Revelation 19 is to the Mount of Megiddo. Two totally different locations 60 miles apart from each other.

Revelation 19 cannot be the Second Coming, period, for the reason you declared. So why do you claim it is the Second Coming? You contradict yourself. Revelation 19 is not a meeting in the air. Revelation 19 is not Jesus Coming to earth with the angels for the final harvest. There is literally no one left on the earth to harvest. In fact those on white horses are the final harvest from the Second Coming years before this battle at Armageddon. The Second Coming is not after the 7 vials are already poured out. Revelation 19 is the battle that is the 6th vial preparation.

"And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

Revelation 19 is the defeat of the beast, FP, and Satan. The beast and FP are cast into the LOF. Satan is bound for a thousand years. The 7th kingdom is the Millennial Kingdom on earth for this same thousand years Satan is bound. Revelation 19 is a return, because Jesus and the 144k did not reign in Jerusalem at the same time as Satan did as the 8th kingdom that lasted for 42 months.

The Second Coming is the 6th Seal, because that was the start of the final harvest. The final harvest was declared over at the 7th Trumpet. Then in the midst of the week of the 7th Trumpet, Satan was allowed 42 months as the 8th kingdom. Revelation 17:10-11.

"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Jesus is declared the 7th kingdom at the 7th Trumpet for 3.5 days.

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Yet if an 8th kingdom happens, it is because of Daniel 9:27. It is also the 3rd woe. Those 42 months result in the harvest of those beheaded, who refuse to take the mark. Jesus is not reigning on earth, because Satan is the 8th kingdom, and the 7th kingdom is placed on hold for 42 months.

 

[covenantee]

No verses are pesky to pretribs as your basis of theories is one of omissions.
So all the pretrib rapture verses are in fact pesky to you as you continually demonstrate by attempts to void them.

You left out that the 144k are the only ones sealed in their foreheads.
Yet your doctrine has always pointed out that we are all sealed at salvation.( correctly so)
So your doctrine has God confused and resealing the 144k in their foreheads, which you are attempting to reframe as the gentile church.
Not to mention we can see their designation as FIRST FRUITS immediately before the main harvest DURING THE TRIB.
Hello...firstfruits precedes main harvest.
You need a new strategy.


Nice try though.
Not really. Grand canyon leap as you jettison the obvious.

All opinion, no Scripture. 1 Corinthians 2:14

Can you do better?

 

[David in NJ]

It even lists the tribes they are from.
So obvious it is painful seeing you guys dance around the facts.
Nothing of their description points to some made up analogy of the church.

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[David in NJ]

Your attempts to void them out are unbelievably weak.
They are a thorn in your doctrine big time

Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

 

[Zao is life]

What you are doing is attempting to complicate the types and shadows dynamic.
A "type" is not a mirror. The type has illustrations within it, but is not an exact clone.
But beside that, your replacement theology is not biblical and your analogy is flawed because both Jew and Gentile make up "one new man" espoused to Christ.
Remember, omission is your doctrines friend.
That is why you need the Jewish wife/gentile bride dynamic voided out of Gods word.
The bride becomes the wife in heaven at the marriage supper as vividly depicted in rev 19.

The parable of the wedding supper has stages of attendance.
Yet another pesky component your doctrine can not possibly reconcile.

Your replacement theology is not biblical. You think you can replace Israel who are found only in Christ with unbelievers, and expect Jesus to believe you. He does not believe you. Therefore I don't either.

The Jews who believe in Jesus can teach no better and no worse than Gentiles who believe in Jesus. Some teach false doctrine like you, some don't. Your idolatrous exaltation of Jews above all other nations is your own and is not biblical.

The Jews who do not believe in Jesus can teach no better and no worse than Gentiles who do not believe in Jesus, either.

 

[rwb]

his post is 100% biblical.
Your response is ironically made up nonsense.
How ironic

More blather without biblical authority! It's really a shame that so many come with what they think is biblical truth, but in reality, comes from a vivid imagination! You too would do well to write fictional stories, because it's apparent from what you espouse here that you have a pretty good imagination, especially when it comes to understanding Biblical doctrine!

 

[rwb]

Noah returned to earth post trib/ post flood.
After leaving PREFLOOD and dwelling over a mile into the sky. Ahem, DURING the trib/flood
Omission is your friend once again.

OH BROTHER!!!

 

[Zao is life]

noah entered before the flood and went into the sky.
Returned to earth post flood.
Change it, omit it, cleverly cover it.
It is not going anywhere.
Must be disheartening, how you guys get owned big time by the bible.

You are the one who's getting owned big time by the Bible. You can't defend @The Light because you see he exposed his ignorance of scripture by claiming Noah entered the ark 7 days before the flood began. So you use a red herring called "Noah set his feet on earth afterward".

Which only proves that you have not a clue about the type and the anti-type. Your understanding allows you to see through a stained glass window to a far greater extent than other saints because of the veil you have pulled over your own eyes. The earth that the ark rested on, that Noah and his family and the animals re-inhabited, is a type of the new heavens and new earth. Take it or leave it.​

 

[rwb]

noah entered before the flood and went into the sky.
Returned to earth post flood.
Change it, omit it, cleverly cover it.
It is not going anywhere.
Must be disheartening, how you guys get owned big time by the bible.

What an imagination!! Where is your biblical authority for saying Noah "went into the sky"???? You're kidding right? So he went into the sky and returned to the earth after the flood???? Where does this bizarre garbage come from? It certainly does not come from the written Word of God!