As you can see in the charts above, the King James version is the most inconsistent with its translations. The NIV is slightly less inconsistent. Young's Literal Translation and the Concordant Literal Versions are the most consistent.
The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?
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Ziggy
Well-Known Member
Define Hell....
I found this kind of interesting:
Isa 28:14
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19
From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
I believe this "overflowing scourge" is truth as opposed to the lies and falsehoods they have made a covenant with.
I believe fire is a purification process.
Where hell is more darkness and ignorance. Depression, malancholy.. the deepest sorrow where there is no hope, no faith, no love.
The Lake of fire on the other hand is taking that darkness and burning it off like dross.
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Because those who hate the light will not freely come to it, and hide themselves with ummm fig leaves,
They will have to be cast into the fire unwillingly even though it is for their own good.
Just as Adam was cast out into the earth, eveil minded people will be cast into hell.
If we believe the Gospel that tells us that God is Love and we read the desriptions of what love (charity) is,
then how can we believe God is anything other than what he says he is.
Hell and the lake of fire are for people who believe in lies and hide behind falsehoods.
They fear the light, they fear the fire of God which is his righteousness.
And because they will not come willingly to the light/truth, God is going to overflow them with it and destroy their evil works.
So I believe the definition of hell is the lowest of low a person can be. Dead, no hope no love no joy.. etc.
And the lake of fire is truth and a purification process to remove that hell and lift them out of their depraved minds.
I also believe that if a person is purely evil and unredeamable, that their very life source, (not eternal life because they dont have that, all they have is the soul which is animated tissue... that person will be snuffed out like a candle never to be again.
Or the book of revelation says they sit outside the kingdom gnashing their teeth because they couldn't find a way to bribe their way in.
So they will stay in eternal torment, or the duration of their animated body until they have no breath left in them.
It will be their choice, not something God will do to them, but rather what they will do to themselves.
Maybe Hell is different for different people. The Bible talks of the lowest hell as if there are many layers of hell.
Psa 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
The lowest hell, the lowest sorrow, the lowest depression and darkness, hopelessness.
Just my thoughts.
Hugs
I found this kind of interesting:
Isa 28:14
Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isa 28:16
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Isa 28:17
Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.
Isa 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19
From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.
I believe this "overflowing scourge" is truth as opposed to the lies and falsehoods they have made a covenant with.
I believe fire is a purification process.
Where hell is more darkness and ignorance. Depression, malancholy.. the deepest sorrow where there is no hope, no faith, no love.
The Lake of fire on the other hand is taking that darkness and burning it off like dross.
Mat 4:16
The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21
But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Because those who hate the light will not freely come to it, and hide themselves with ummm fig leaves,
They will have to be cast into the fire unwillingly even though it is for their own good.
Just as Adam was cast out into the earth, eveil minded people will be cast into hell.
If we believe the Gospel that tells us that God is Love and we read the desriptions of what love (charity) is,
then how can we believe God is anything other than what he says he is.
Hell and the lake of fire are for people who believe in lies and hide behind falsehoods.
They fear the light, they fear the fire of God which is his righteousness.
And because they will not come willingly to the light/truth, God is going to overflow them with it and destroy their evil works.
So I believe the definition of hell is the lowest of low a person can be. Dead, no hope no love no joy.. etc.
And the lake of fire is truth and a purification process to remove that hell and lift them out of their depraved minds.
I also believe that if a person is purely evil and unredeamable, that their very life source, (not eternal life because they dont have that, all they have is the soul which is animated tissue... that person will be snuffed out like a candle never to be again.
Or the book of revelation says they sit outside the kingdom gnashing their teeth because they couldn't find a way to bribe their way in.
So they will stay in eternal torment, or the duration of their animated body until they have no breath left in them.
It will be their choice, not something God will do to them, but rather what they will do to themselves.
Maybe Hell is different for different people. The Bible talks of the lowest hell as if there are many layers of hell.
Psa 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
The lowest hell, the lowest sorrow, the lowest depression and darkness, hopelessness.
Just my thoughts.
Hugs
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
This is what I have found in the New Testament:
1. The word "hell" is ALWAYS a translation of one of three Greek words. (All three words have been translated as "hell" in the KJV, making no distinction). *
* The above fact is not meant to disparage, discredit or depreciate the King James Bible in any way. Personally I believe that the King James translation of the Bible is quite possibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, but even so, to me this does not mean that its translators made absolutely no errors of choice when it comes to which English word to use when translating Greek words.
I have no idea why the words haides, geena and tartaróō are all translated as "hell" in the KJV, aside from the fact that all three words are characterized by a state of separation from God.
(i) haides (Hebrew: sheol) seems to refer to the abode of departed souls (Mat.11:23; Mat.16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27 & 31; 1 Cor.15:55; Rev.1:18; Rev.6:8; Rev.20: 13-14); and the greatest biblical evidence that this 'place' called hades exists and is populated by souls who are both self-aware and aware of their surroundings, consists in the fact that Jesus descended into sheol/hades (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31), where He proclaimed or heralded (Greek: kērýssō) the gospel to certain souls who were imprisoned there. (1 Peter 3:18-20).
Besides this, if sheol / hades, which is mentioned repeatedly in scripture, is a mythical 'place', then the biblical scriptures would not even mention such a "place".
See for example:- (Note that the Hebrew word nephesh is the equivalent of the Greek word psychḗ, and the Hebrew word sheol is the equivalent of the Greek word háidēs):
Proverbs 23:14
"Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul [nephesh, psychḗ] from sheol [hades]".
Psalms 86:12-13
"I confess Thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I honour Thy name to the age. For Thy kindness is great toward me, And Thou hast delivered my soul [Hebrew nephesh] from the lowest Sheol."
1 Corinthians 15:55
"O death [thánatos], where is your sting? O grave [háidēs], where is your victory?"
The many examples where sheol / hades is spoken of as the abode of the dead (or the abode of departed souls or spirits) implies that sheol / hades is a very real, rather than a mythical place - and if sheol / hades exists, it has a "population" (because it's the population of sheol / hades that causes it to exist), and if it has a population, then it means that the soul, or at least the self-awareness of the person, continues after physical death.
If this were not the case, then death and hades "delivering up the dead in them" to face judgement (Revelation 20:13) would not make sense.
In the Revelation, the name of Jesus is said to be both known and praised under the earth:
1. The word "hell" is ALWAYS a translation of one of three Greek words. (All three words have been translated as "hell" in the KJV, making no distinction). *
* The above fact is not meant to disparage, discredit or depreciate the King James Bible in any way. Personally I believe that the King James translation of the Bible is quite possibly inspired by the Holy Spirit, but even so, to me this does not mean that its translators made absolutely no errors of choice when it comes to which English word to use when translating Greek words.
I have no idea why the words haides, geena and tartaróō are all translated as "hell" in the KJV, aside from the fact that all three words are characterized by a state of separation from God.
(i) haides (Hebrew: sheol) seems to refer to the abode of departed souls (Mat.11:23; Mat.16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; Acts 2:27 & 31; 1 Cor.15:55; Rev.1:18; Rev.6:8; Rev.20: 13-14); and the greatest biblical evidence that this 'place' called hades exists and is populated by souls who are both self-aware and aware of their surroundings, consists in the fact that Jesus descended into sheol/hades (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31), where He proclaimed or heralded (Greek: kērýssō) the gospel to certain souls who were imprisoned there. (1 Peter 3:18-20).
Besides this, if sheol / hades, which is mentioned repeatedly in scripture, is a mythical 'place', then the biblical scriptures would not even mention such a "place".
See for example:- (Note that the Hebrew word nephesh is the equivalent of the Greek word psychḗ, and the Hebrew word sheol is the equivalent of the Greek word háidēs):
Proverbs 23:14
"Do not withhold correction from a boy, for if you beat him with the rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with the rod, and shall deliver his soul [nephesh, psychḗ] from sheol [hades]".
Psalms 86:12-13
"I confess Thee, O Lord my God, with all my heart, And I honour Thy name to the age. For Thy kindness is great toward me, And Thou hast delivered my soul [Hebrew nephesh] from the lowest Sheol."
1 Corinthians 15:55
"O death [thánatos], where is your sting? O grave [háidēs], where is your victory?"
The many examples where sheol / hades is spoken of as the abode of the dead (or the abode of departed souls or spirits) implies that sheol / hades is a very real, rather than a mythical place - and if sheol / hades exists, it has a "population" (because it's the population of sheol / hades that causes it to exist), and if it has a population, then it means that the soul, or at least the self-awareness of the person, continues after physical death.
If this were not the case, then death and hades "delivering up the dead in them" to face judgement (Revelation 20:13) would not make sense.
In the Revelation, the name of Jesus is said to be both known and praised under the earth:
"Therefore God has highly exalted Him (Jesus),
and has given Him a name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones,
and of ones under the earth;
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
(Philippians 2:9-11).
"And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth,
and under the earth, and those that are in the sea,
and all who are in them, saying,
Blessing and honor and glory and power be
to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever."
(Revelation 5:13).
and has given Him a name which is above every name,
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of heavenly ones, and of earthly ones,
and of ones under the earth;
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."
(Philippians 2:9-11).
"And I heard every creature which is in the Heaven and on the earth,
and under the earth, and those that are in the sea,
and all who are in them, saying,
Blessing and honor and glory and power be
to Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever."
(Revelation 5:13).
In ancient Greek mythology haides was the god of the underworld. His name later became synonymous with the underworld (the abode of departed souls, or the abode of the dead). It's not surprising then that in the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuaginta or "Septuagint"), the Hebrew word sheol is always translated as haides. Sheol (Hebrew) or haides (Greek) was understood even at the time of Jesus to refer to the abode of the dead.
In Revelation 20:13-15 death and hades delivered up the dead in them. So hades and death, it seems, are two sides of the same coin: Paul tells us that death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26), and when this comes to pass, it will obviously render sheol/hades empty.
In Revelation 20:13-15 Jesus seems to be making a clear distinction between hades on one hand, and the lake of fire and brimstone on the other, where like gehenna, the lake of fire and brimstone is a place of destruction.
(ii) tartaróō (tartaros/tartarus) refers to an abyss or bottomless pit in haides (II Peter 2:4).
In ancient Greek mythology, tartarus or tartaros was the place where the Titans (gods) were imprisoned after a war in which they were overthrown by the Olympian gods. The Strongs Greek Dictionary informs us that tartaroo is the deepest abyss in hades:
[StrongsGreek] 05020
TARTARO/W ταρταρόω tartaróō tar-tar-o'-o from Τάρταρος Tártaros, (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
In the Bible, the word tartaroo is used only once (2 Peter 2:4); and it seems to refer to an abyss or bottomless pit where Peter stated that angels who sinned are bound.
(iii) geena (Hebrew gehenna) is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of everlasting destruction (every time He spoke of everlasting destruction):- (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6).
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body [sōma], but are not able to kill the soul [psychḗ]. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul [psychḗ] and body [sōma] in géenna."
Gehenna, or The valley of Hinnom, was the valley in Jerusalem where in ancient times certain kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. In time it became deemed by the Jews to be accursed, and became a symbol of the destiny of the wicked. Some say that in the days of Jesus, the city's rubbish would be thrown into Gehenna (the valley of Hinnom) and a fire burned there continually.
Geena seems to equate to the 2nd death | the lake of fire written about in the Revelation.
In Revelation 20:13-15 death and hades delivered up the dead in them. So hades and death, it seems, are two sides of the same coin: Paul tells us that death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26), and when this comes to pass, it will obviously render sheol/hades empty.
In Revelation 20:13-15 Jesus seems to be making a clear distinction between hades on one hand, and the lake of fire and brimstone on the other, where like gehenna, the lake of fire and brimstone is a place of destruction.
(ii) tartaróō (tartaros/tartarus) refers to an abyss or bottomless pit in haides (II Peter 2:4).
In ancient Greek mythology, tartarus or tartaros was the place where the Titans (gods) were imprisoned after a war in which they were overthrown by the Olympian gods. The Strongs Greek Dictionary informs us that tartaroo is the deepest abyss in hades:
[StrongsGreek] 05020
TARTARO/W ταρταρόω tartaróō tar-tar-o'-o from Τάρταρος Tártaros, (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment:--cast down to hell.
In the Bible, the word tartaroo is used only once (2 Peter 2:4); and it seems to refer to an abyss or bottomless pit where Peter stated that angels who sinned are bound.
(iii) geena (Hebrew gehenna) is the word that Jesus used as a symbol of everlasting destruction (every time He spoke of everlasting destruction):- (Mat.5:22, 29 & 30 | Mark 9:43, 45 & 47; Mat.10:28; Mat.18:9; Mat.23:15 & 33; Luke 12:5; James 3:6).
Matthew 10:28
"And do not fear those who kill the body [sōma], but are not able to kill the soul [psychḗ]. But rather fear Him who can destroy both soul [psychḗ] and body [sōma] in géenna."
Gehenna, or The valley of Hinnom, was the valley in Jerusalem where in ancient times certain kings of Judah sacrificed their children by fire. In time it became deemed by the Jews to be accursed, and became a symbol of the destiny of the wicked. Some say that in the days of Jesus, the city's rubbish would be thrown into Gehenna (the valley of Hinnom) and a fire burned there continually.
Geena seems to equate to the 2nd death | the lake of fire written about in the Revelation.
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Thanks for your post.
The hell in Is.28 is Sheol/the Grave. The lowest hell is Tartarus.
See the reference charts supplied by @Freedm
/
Except that doesn't jive with the Biblical usage. I suggest you explore this.
Much love!
I think the motivation of the King James translators was to scare people into the church. This is the only reason I can imagine to explain why they would choose to not be accurate, because they could've been more accurate if they'd wanted to.
I don't see it that way, regarding your deduction of it having a population the way a physical place would. Rather, I liken it to, for example, "going to sleep". The language there also implies that you're going to a place (a place called "sleep") but in reality we know we're simply moving into a different state of being, not a different location. I think that's the same thing happening with the words sheol and hades. They're described as places, but they're actually just a state of being, specifically, the state of being dead.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
The changing perception of hell. - How do I define it?
Living without without supporting Big Pharma (fear, anxiety, confusion) Religious fanaticism, Accusation, Arms manufacturing, Environmental degradation and the obsession to climb that slippery success pole.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
That may be true, which is why I used the word 'place' in quotations, but as a matter of interest for me I would like to ask you, do you see those "in hades" as being consciously or at least subconsciously (like we are when we are in a dream state) aware of themselves and of whatever they "see and hear" around them?
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
The Lord who taught us to love our enemies, did this for His enemies:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. -- Jn 3:16-17
No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. -- Jn 15:13
He who believes on Him is not condemned .. Jn 3:18a
So He did love His enemies - but that's not all He said about this. He said something else which implies that God is 100% just:
.. but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. Jn 3:18b-19.
Jesus used gehenna - everlasting destruction - as a picture of what that condemnation entails.
If John 3:16-18 stopped at verse 17 then this thread would not even exist, because the topic of this thread would not exist. But the words in verses 18-19 are Jesus' own words, and he spoke about the everlasting destruction of the soul many times, using gehenna as a symbol for it.
Personally, I think that any soul even being aware of its being eternally separated from God, is torment.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna Mat.10:28
However, if God would rather destroy the soul than suffer the soul to such a fate, I do not know. It's a case of deciding between:
1. If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev.14:9-11.
@St. SteVen I agree with what Steve Gregg says in the above video about fire and brimstone being a symbol of the destruction of the ungodly, which is borrowed by the prophets, and in the Revelation from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also appears in Ezekiel 38:22 talking about the destruction of Gog and his armies.
However, Revelation 14:9-11 also suggests that there may be a difference between the punishment for worshiping the beast and receiving his/its mark, and the punishment for unrepentant sin mixed with unbelief in Christ): --
2. And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into gehenna. And if your right hand offends you, cut it off and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into gehenna. Mat.5:29-30
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna Mat.10:28
Perhaps there is only a difference in the method of the destruction.
For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him. -- Jn 3:16-17
No one has greater love than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. -- Jn 15:13
He who believes on Him is not condemned .. Jn 3:18a
So He did love His enemies - but that's not all He said about this. He said something else which implies that God is 100% just:
.. but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil. Jn 3:18b-19.
Jesus used gehenna - everlasting destruction - as a picture of what that condemnation entails.
If John 3:16-18 stopped at verse 17 then this thread would not even exist, because the topic of this thread would not exist. But the words in verses 18-19 are Jesus' own words, and he spoke about the everlasting destruction of the soul many times, using gehenna as a symbol for it.
Personally, I think that any soul even being aware of its being eternally separated from God, is torment.
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna Mat.10:28
However, if God would rather destroy the soul than suffer the soul to such a fate, I do not know. It's a case of deciding between:
1. If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name. Rev.14:9-11.
@St. SteVen I agree with what Steve Gregg says in the above video about fire and brimstone being a symbol of the destruction of the ungodly, which is borrowed by the prophets, and in the Revelation from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. It also appears in Ezekiel 38:22 talking about the destruction of Gog and his armies.
However, Revelation 14:9-11 also suggests that there may be a difference between the punishment for worshiping the beast and receiving his/its mark, and the punishment for unrepentant sin mixed with unbelief in Christ): --
2. And if your right eye offends you, pluck it out and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into gehenna. And if your right hand offends you, cut it off and throw it from you. For it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be thrown into gehenna. Mat.5:29-30
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna Mat.10:28
Perhaps there is only a difference in the method of the destruction.
So what we do know is that there is an "opposite" to salvation trough faith in Christ - and there may even be two "opposites":-
1. Destruction of both soul and body; and
2. Everlasting torment specifically for worshiping the beast and his/its image and receiving his/its mark.
(or possibly everlasting torment for all unrepentant sin and unbelief in Christ, which includes those who worship the beast).
It's difficult to come to a conclusion (actually I believe it's impossible to come to a conclusion) because if Jesus did state these things plainly, it's not recorded.
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Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed response.
And for actually watching the Steve Gregg video.
In an incredibly unbiased presentation. Quite remarkable really.
I think he was honestly undecided at the time.
For me it comes down to what each view says about the character of God.
Two of the views make God into something less than loving. (way less)
/
And for actually watching the Steve Gregg video.
Gregg actually presented all three views of the final judgement. (three hells)
In an incredibly unbiased presentation. Quite remarkable really.
I think he was honestly undecided at the time.
Indeed.
For me it comes down to what each view says about the character of God.
Two of the views make God into something less than loving. (way less)
/
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
I don't know. I think it says more about us than about God if we only want to know about His love and mercy, but not about His justice. God's character is both love AND justice.
If our penal system was perfect it would punish the murderer by putting him in jail but it would let him out if the system could somehow know if he truly was remorseful and repentant and sought forgiveness from all those he had harmed.
God's love provided the mercy and forgiveness we need. What about His justice?
I think the hell doctrine clouds our understanding of God's justice.
Was it justice, or mercy that Christ paid our death penalty for sin?
We are told that revenge is a sin and that we are to love our enemies.
Does God hold us to a higher standard than he holds himself?
/ @Hillsage
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
No, but do we hold God to a lower standard regarding His justice than He holds Himself?
Not sure how to answer that question. - LOL
Could you restate it? (if need be)
My point was that it would be hypocritical to hold anyone to a higher standard than you hold yourself.
Does God require us to love our enemies while he plans to incinerate his own?
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone should think there will not be consequences for our deeds.
We need to be held accountable. Everyone will answer. But correction should have the purpose of restoration,
not pointless eternal punishment with no hope of escape. Does that make sense?
/ cc; @Hillsage
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
What you say makes sense, but just to bring in another scripture into focus that has reference to what we're talking about:
"Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but giving place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord." -- Romans 12:19
"It is a righteous thing with God to repay tribulation to those who trouble you, and to give rest with us to you who are troubled, at the revealing of the Lord Jesus from Heaven with the angels of His power, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He shall come to be glorified in His saints and to be admired in all those who believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that Day." -- 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
"For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people." -- Hebrews 10:30
So we are to love our enemies because it's not our place to seek vengeance or to bring God's justice to bear upon them - but it IS God's place.
So in that case, God is in this sense holding us to a higher standard because we may not do what it is His sovereign right as God to do.
Or is it not correct to say we are being held to a higher standard?
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