The changing perception of hell. - How do you define it?

[St. SteVen]

Or is it not correct to say we are being held to a higher standard?

Here's the kicker. IMHO
Verse 48 reads: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
This tells me that loving our enemies is not merely good human behavior.
Loving ones enemies is godly behavior. We are required to love, because God is love.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

/ @Hillsage

 

[St. SteVen]

So in that case God is in this sense holding us to a higher standard because we may not do what it is His sovereign right as God to do.

Tyranny and endless cruelty is the sovereign right of tyrants.
Not sure we should lay that on God's doorstep. I know I won't.

/

 

[Zao is life]

Here's the kicker. IMHO
Verse 48 reads: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
This tells me that loving our enemies is not merely good human behavior.
Loving ones enemies is godly behavior. We are required to love, because God is love.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’
44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?
47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

/ @Hillsage

Yes but God has loved us that way, and still does. He did not wait for us to be worthy before He took the sin of the entire human race upon Himself and became a curse for us.

"So God so loved His enemies that He gave .."

 

[Zao is life]

Tyranny and endless cruelty is the sovereign right of tyrants.
Not sure we should lay that on God's doorstep. I know I won't.

/

Well if there's one part of the Bible that I'm actually thankful I do not fully understand, it's what happens after the Great White Throne.

But if there's one thing I know, it's that God did not love Adam and his descendants so much that He stopped Adam from dying or experiencing all the other consequences of unbelief of the Word of God and belief of the lie.

He loved him so much that He delivered him from death. How many times does He have to do that?

@St. SteVen If there will be no second sacrifice for sins to deliver humans from the second death and bring about a second resurrection, then it does not mean that God is being a tyrant. It means He has already done it. once for all.

And the second death is the lake of fire.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes but God has loved us that way, and still does. He did not wait for us to be worthy before He took the sin of the entire human race upon Himself and became a curse for us.

"So God so loved His enemies that He gave .."

Agreed. It was payment in full.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

/

 

[St. SteVen]

He loved him so much that He delivered him from death. How many times does He have to do that?

It doesn't need to be redone. Once for all.

Romans 6:10 NIV
The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

Hebrews 9:12 NIV
He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place
once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining[a] eternal redemption.

/

 

[Zao is life]

Agreed. It was payment in full.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 John 4:14 NIV
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 1:29 NIV
... The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said,
“Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

/

There's that odd verse about why are people bapised for (on behalf of) the dead if the dead are not raised - a verse which Mormons use as their theological basis for people getting baptized on behalf of the dead in a Mormon 'church' or whatever they call it.

"Otherwise, what will they do, those being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not at all raised, why indeed are they baptized on behalf of the dead?" -- 1 Corinthians 15:29

There is also the question about why Jesus preached the gospel in hades to souls who had been imprisoned in hades since the days of Noah. What would the gospel have helped them?

 

[St. SteVen]

There is also the question about why Jesus preached the gospel in hades to souls who had been imprisoned in hades since the days of Noah. What would the gospel have helped them?

The proof is in the pudding. He led captivity captive when he brought them out. He emptied "hell". IMO

.

 

[Zao is life]

The proof is in the pudding. He led captivity captive when he brought them out. He emptied "hell". IMO

.

The Bible does not tell us. Maybe the people in the 1st century understood what we grapple with because certain concepts were just known, that we have now lost, and that's why it looks as though the Bible is silent, but we're actually just reading it through 21st century post-Greek and lost Hebrew modern post-reason era lenses.

In short, there's a lot of understanding we lack because we've lost the knowledge that the apostles and those they taught took for granted.

 

[marks]

Can you give me an example?

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Dead, but walking around on the earth.

There are a few different words used that are translated dead, or death. My recommendation is to look at each and every place the word appears. Take note of what what it means in each context, so you can establish the range of meaning, and become familiar with each use.

Much love!

 

[Freedm]

That may be true, which is why I used the word 'place' in quotations, but as a matter of interest for me I would like to ask you, do you see those "in hades" as being consciously or at least subconsciously (like we are when we are in a dream state) aware of themselves and of whatever they "see and hear" around them?

No, I don't see people in Hades being conscious, because they're dead. Like I said, it's a state of being. As King Solomon said "The dead know nothing".

EDIT: I should clarify, as believers in Christ, we will never go to Hades because we will never die. As believers, we will never lose consciousness, but will move instantly from this life into the next.

 

[Freedm]

For me it comes down to what each view says about the character of God.
Two of the views make God into something less than loving. (way less)

Don't forget that God is also capable of hate.

Just a few examples here:

Psalm 5:5
The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Romans 9:13
Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

 

[St. SteVen]

Don't forget that God is also capable of hate.

I would categorize those as literary exaggeration.

Does Jesus really want us to hate our father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters, and even our own life?

Luke 14:26 NIV
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—
yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

/

 

[Freedm]

Ephesians 2:1-3 KJV
1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Dead, but walking around on the earth.

There are a few different words used that are translated dead, or death. My recommendation is to look at each and every place the word appears. Take note of what what it means in each context, so you can establish the range of meaning, and become familiar with each use.

Much love!

That's clearly in a figurative context. However, Romans 6:23, saying "the wages of sin is death" clearly refers to actual physical death, since we saw this with the fall of Adam and Eve out of the garden. They died because of sin, which is exactly what Romans 6:23 was referring to. If it weren't so, there would be no need for a resurrection.

Therefore, I maintain, that the wages of sin (death) eliminates the possibility of eternal torment. To convince me I'm wrong, you would have to convince me that even without sin, Adam and Eve would've died physically. Otherwise, I have to believe that the wages of sin refers to physical death, not the kind of death mentioned in Ephesians 2.

 

[Freedm]

I would categorize those as literary exaggeration.

Does Jesus really want us to hate our father and mother, wife and children,
brothers and sisters, and even our own life?

Luke 14:26 NIV
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—
yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple.

/

As curious as your example is, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that God hates those who sin. I think it's fair to say that he hated Sodom and Gomorrah and he proved it. I think it's fair to say that he hated Jerusalem and he proved that as well. I'm also reminded that it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea, than to cause the little children to sin. That's a direct warning of God's wrath, which can only come from hate. God hates sin and those who live by it. That's no exaggeration.

 

[marks]

That's clearly in a figurative context.

It's a propositional indicative statement. What's figurative about it? Are you thinking Paul is using imprecise language? I think he's being accurate.

Much love!

 

[Freedm]

There is also the question about why Jesus preached the gospel in hades to souls who had been imprisoned in hades since the days of Noah. What would the gospel have helped them?

They were imprisoned by death. That verse you're referring to (1 Peter 3), is the resurrection coming to those who had died since the days of Noah. Paul referred to this in 1 Thess 4:15 when he said "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep".

Those who had fallen asleep (died) are the ones who were resurrected by Jesus' defeat of death. They were the first to move into the new life (be resurrected). The rest of us won't receive it until we leave this current life. 1 Peter 3 is telling us, that even those who died before the cross and before hearing the gospel, are saved by Jesus' sacrifice. And 1 Thess 4 is telling us that they are resurrected first.

 

[Freedm]

It's a propositional indicative statement. What's figurative about it? Are you thinking Paul is using imprecise language? I think he's being accurate.

Much love!

It's figurative in the sense that he's clearly not referring to physical death. He can't be talking to people who are physically dead. Surely you agree with me on that.

 

[St. SteVen]

As curious as your example is, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that God hates those who sin. I think it's fair to say that he hated Sodom and Gomorrah and he proved it. I think it's fair to say that he hated Jerusalem and he proved that as well. I'm also reminded that it would be better for a man to have a millstone tied around his neck and thrown into the sea, than to cause the little children to sin. That's a direct warning of God's wrath, which can only come from hate. God hates sin and those who live by it. That's no exaggeration.

Here's more on the subject

This is a rather long, but interesting, citation about the restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah, Ammon and Moab, Elam, Egypt and Edom. The bit about Edom is most interesting. It discusses the use of exaggerated language (to make a point) in biblical literature. Meaning, it is not to be taken literally.

The restoration of Sodom and Gomorrah from "eternal" fire Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Ezekiel 16:53 “‘However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

The restoration of Ammon and Moab Zephaniah 2:9 Therefore, as surely as I live,” declares the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, “surely Moab will become like Sodom, the Ammonites like Gomorrah— a place of weeds and salt pits, a wasteland forever. The remnant of my people will plunder them; the survivors of my nation will inherit their land.” Jeremiah 25:22, 27 21 Edom, Moab and Ammon; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says:
Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:6 “Yet afterward, I will restore the fortunes of the Ammonites,” declares the Lord. Jeremiah 48:4, 47 4 Moab will be broken; her little ones will cry out. 47 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Moab in days to come,” declares the Lord. Here ends the judgment on Moab.

The restoration of Elam Jeremiah 25:25, 27 25 all the kings of Zimri, Elam and Media; ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Jeremiah 49:39 “Yet I will restore the fortunes of Elam in days to come,” declares the Lord.

The restoration of Egypt
Jeremiah 25:19, 27 19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his attendants, his officials and all his people, ... 27 “Then tell them, ‘This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: Drink, get drunk and vomit, and fall to rise no more because of the sword I will send among you.’ Ezekiel 29:13-14 “‘Yet this is what the Sovereign Lord says: At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the nations where they were scattered. 14 I will bring them back from captivity and return them to Upper Egypt, the land of their ancestry. There they will be a lowly kingdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Edom

Edom was an ancient kingdom in Transjordan located between Moab to the northeast, the Arabah to the west and the Arabian Desert to the south and east. Most of its former territory is now divided between Israel and Jordan.

The destruction of Edom uses the same exaggerated language descriptions as hell in the Bible. Yet none of it lasted forever as it clearly says. And you can certainly pass through it today. For this prophecy to be taken literally it would need to be a smoking tar pit today with a bypass to get around it. Compare verse ten below. (Revelation 14:11)

Isaiah 34:8-11 For the Lord has a day of vengeance, a year of retribution, to uphold Zion’s cause. 9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch, her dust into burning sulfur; her land will become blazing pitch! 10 It will not be quenched night or day; its smoke will rise forever. From generation to generation it will lie desolate; no one will ever pass through it again. 11 The desert owl and screech owl will possess it; the great owl and the raven will nest there. God will stretch out over Edom the measuring line of chaos and the plumb line of desolation.

/

 

[Zao is life]

No, I don't see people in Hades being conscious, because they're dead. Like I said, it's a state of being. As King Solomon said "The dead know nothing".

EDIT: I should clarify, as believers in Christ, we will never go to Hades because we will never die. As believers, we will never lose consciousness, but will move instantly from this life into the next.

I do see them as being conscious but I can't say for sure because I've never been there and will not go there because like you say, those who die in Christ remain in Christ.