rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes it is sobering to think that it is our choice to be one of the wise virgins or one of the foolish virgins
Apostle Paul Showed The Rapture Happens With The Future Resurrection
- Thread starter Davy
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The first thing to factor in here, verses 40-41 occur during verse 39. If we have verses 40-41 meaning a rapture prior to great trib and that verse 39 occurs during verses 40-41, and that this is prior to the beginning of great trib, one then has some explaining to do here.
If some are raptured at the time, and that those left behind(verse 39) are wiped out when these are raptured, and that the trib is 3.5 years, who then experiences this 3.5 year trib if some have been raptured and the rest have been wiped out at the beginning, not at the ending of this 3.5 year period?
No one with any sense is going to take any interpretation serious if that interpretation has verse 39 divorced from verses 40-41. IOW, whenever one insists verses 40-41 is meaning, that same one has to do the same with verse 39..
It would look like this
A) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus after great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Or it would look like this
B) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus before great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And not like this instead
C) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Obviously, this interpretation makes nonsense out of the 'then' in verse 40 if we have verse 39 meaning years later after when verse 40 is meaning, rather than when verse 40 is meaning.
Therefore, C) is not a valid interpretation. That only leaves A) and B) as the only two valid choices, except only one is actually valid since both choices can't be correct. If we assume it is B) that is correct, then like I already pointed out, who is it then that experiences the 3.5 years trib? It can't be anyone in verses 40-41 if they have been raptured before this 3.5 year period begins. Nor can it be anyone in verse 39 if they have been wiped out before this 3.5 years trib begins.
And let me guess, since you indicated no postribber ever honestly addresses those verses. What I just did here per this post, this too is another example of no post tribber ever honestly addressing these verses, right?
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I think that is well said as to what our Lord Jesus meant with using the flood of Noah's time to point to the deceived and wicked being swept away, which is actually about those who want to be 'taken' in Christ's parable of Luke 17:35-37.
Per Genesis 7, Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for a period of 150 days before the waters started receding. That period is symbolically represented as "five months" regarding the coming tribulation per Rev.9. (the 150 days representing 5 months per the old Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = a month. And the number 5 in God's Word symbolically represents Grace.)
Thank you, Davy.
I would disagree with this; they want to preserve their lives (and retain all their possessions as part of that). No one "wants to be taken," but some will be ruined/destroyed ~ their lives brought to nothing ~ as a result of not believing, waiting patiently, and giving up themselves for Christ, as it were.
150 days, yes, as Moses writes. I disagree that the number 5 represents grace. I would submit that 150 days of the waters prevailing upon the earth is significant, though, because that is the same amount of time it took for the waters to recede. So, in total, of course, that is 300 days, and we know the significance of the numbers 3 and 10; in many contexts in Scripture, they ~ along with 7, 12, and 1000 ~ communicate ideas of fullness and completeness, and in the case of the 300 total days, the fullness and completeness of His judgment upon the earth.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
Of course those brethren who wrongly believe being TAKEN do not intend to be in the wrong camp when Jesus does return after the great tribulation. Yet the first ones 'taken' Jesus shows in His answer will be wheresover the carcase is, that's where the fowls will be gathered together to feast. We don't need to hide that fact of His answer of Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28.
So how will you link that to the "five months" of Rev.9 about the time of the 'stinging'? And have you not understood the waters as a flood out of the mouth of the serpent in Rev.12 is linked with that time of five months stinging by the locusts?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
In "a, b, and c", you omitted the setting of " before the flood".
Then you attempted to make the 2 comings Jesus depicted into one.
Again, can any postrib rapture adherent explain "before the flood" ?
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
QUOTE
"If some are raptured at the time, and that those left behind(verse 39) are wiped out when these are raptured, and that the trib is 3.5 years, who then experiences this 3.5 year trib if some have been raptured and the rest have been wiped out at the beginning, not at the ending of this 3.5 year period?"
The "all are wiped out at the rapture" does not fit ANY model.
Jesus is using Noah BEFORE THE FLOOD, as an analogy.
Obviously there will be no flood, or all of earths inhabitants destroyed ...save 8 people.
Try another shot at it.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
there is no model with all earth's inhabitants destroyed at the rapture.
Because that would be outside any stretch.
When we leave out the setting of "before the flood, normal life, peacetime, commerce, and Noah removed" , then proceed to show a model with Jesus's setting removed, we can surely fit a false narrative in there, as you just demonstrated.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Nope.
The one taken one left behind is in the same setting as Before the Flood. That Dynamic is also in the setting of peacetime, Commerce ,normal life, and in the setting of watch and wait ,for it is the rapture.
Jesus, in the SAME BREATH,in mat 25, gives a second group of 50% taken, 50% left behind.
Two side by side groups of 50% taken.
This is what happens when you build a doctrine on omission.
Now you can leave all that out and
make it say what you want but that's not honesty.
That is why pinseeker could not admit that the one taken and one left in three or four different scenarios is actually 50% taken and 50% left. And that percentage is of a particular group it is not the entire Earth ,it is just that group of people.
When I see that kind of Dodge ,diversion ,and reframing of what is written, anyone can see that is not being honest
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
You guys just uncovered yet another anti pretribber dilemma.
You guys are interpreting the "swept them all away" as ALL the earths inhabitants as destroyed.
...yet another impossible self imposed dilemma.
Now I am wondering if yall think there will be an actual flood at the rapture?????
You guys are interpreting the "swept them all away" as ALL the earths inhabitants as destroyed.
...yet another impossible self imposed dilemma.
Now I am wondering if yall think there will be an actual flood at the rapture?????
Not I... If you were to change that to "all the earth's inhabitants who are unbelievers," or "who do not find favor with the LORD," then yes... Seems to me everyone here would say that, but maybe not...
Well, God promised that "the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh" (Genesis 9:15), so... well, just speaking for myself, certainly not. So, that, and the fact that there will be no "rapture," in the sense of "removal" of the ones who find favor with the LORD, but rather protection and safe-keeping through the final Judgment...
You seem to "wonder" a lot of things...
Grace and peace to you, Rebuilder.
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Hm. Well, no one "intends to be in the wrong camp," of course, but through the period of tribulation ~ which is now ~ those in this "wrong camp" believe themselves to be in the right, and that those in the other "camp" are foolish... which was the case in Noah's day and is true even today.
No one is "hiding" anything, at least not I.
When Jesus says what He says in those verses, He's actually redirecting their misdirected question of "Where, Lord?" Previously in Luke 17:20-21, He said, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed." So He's answering in a parable, since He's already made it obvious. He does say, "Remember Lot's wife," and in saying what He says in Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 tells them that they should not look back to "where the corpse is" or "where the vultures will gather" ~ or as Lot's wife did, back at Sodom and Gomorrah ~ but to let "the vultures" do that... to not seek to preserve their lives and thereby lose it.
What He says here is in the very same vein as what we read in Luke 9:57-61...
- "As they were going along the road, someone said to him, 'I will follow you wherever you go.' And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.'”
- "To another he said, 'Follow Me.' But he said, 'Lord, let me first go and bury my father.' And Jesus said to him, 'Leave the dead to bury their own dead. But as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.'"
- "Yet another said, 'I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home.' Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.'”
, "...since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith..." (Hebrews 12:1-2).
I agree there is a close association of ~ parallel between ~ the two passages, but I think, from the impression I'm getting, in quite a different way than you suppose.
Grace and peace to you.
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Woah! wait a minute.
Are you saying we today are already in... the "great tribulation" Jesus warned about?
No, that's not true. Per the written Matthew 24:15-29 Scripture, the "great tribulation" time is kicked off when the pseudo-Christ places the "abomination of desolation" IDOL at the new Jew's temple in Jerusalem (which the Jews there today already have the materials ready to build). That event also includes that false one ending the daily sacrifices there, so that means the time when that abomination is setup, old covenant worship with a new temple will have been already going on for sometime. None of that is happening in today's Jerusalem, not yet.
Well, yeah, however... it still comes down to who is going to listen to God in HIS written Word vs. man in his. The majority of deceived brethren tend to operate on the idea of 'fads' and 'slogans' devised by clever men.
Nope, I'd never agree to what you just said. His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" SPECIFICALLY in response to what Jesus said about "two men in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left," and the "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Luke 17:34-35)
You completely leave the context of "Where, Lord?" when you try to spiritualize away His disciple's simple question about where the one will be "taken' to.
It's still more simple than that, because Jesus made the time of His future coming to gather His Church easy to know, as did Apostle Paul.
Jesus showed in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that He comes AFTER... the tribulation to gather His Church.
And in 1 Thessalonians 4, Apostle Paul is claiming the exact same thing when he shows Jesus brings the 'asleep' saints with Him when He descends, right after they are resurrected, as written in 1 Thess.4:16. The future resurrection event only happens on the 'last day' of this world, which is when Jesus said He will raise those who believe on Him to eternal life (John 6:40).
The last phrase of Matthew 24:31 is hard-linked to the 'asleep' saints being raised on the day of Jesus' coming.
The last phrase of Mark 13:27 is hard-linked to the saints still alive on earth being "caught up" to Jesus on that same day at His coming.
That is how those who keep God's Word should show the deceived Pre-tribber on this matter. Then it is up to them to 'read' the Scripture as written, and either condemn theirself by not keeping God's Word, or to start looking deeper in God's Word for theirselves as to what their preachers are telling them.
Too many brethren look at Revelation 9 as if it is the time of the Gog/Magog war with the 200 million army mentioned there, so their timing of endtime events are skewed, a result of their 'fleshy' thinking.
The Revelation 9 chapter is covering future events that occur on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period, and the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Per the Rev.11 chapter, Jesus takes over all the world's kingdoms on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, so that has to mean... the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is "great tribulation" time.
That 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, the time of "great tribulation", begins at this point...
Rev 9:12-19
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
That time is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, the time of "great tribulation".
What kind... of time does God's Word show us the future "great tribulation" will be, a time of war, or a time of world peace?
Jesus showed us the great tribulation time will be about world peace. Jesus said we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, but don't be troubled for those things must be, BUT THE END IS NOT YET (Matt.24:6). So the END (tribulation time)... will not be a time of war and rumors of war, which means a time of peace. This also is what Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Thess.5 about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety", just prior to the time of "sudden destruction" upon them, which happens on the last day of this world. That means they have to be saying that during the time of "great tribulation" just prior to Jesus' coming.
The locusts are told that they cannot kill those NOT sealed with God's seal, but only 'sting' them for "five months". The locusts represent these prepped for battle on these horses, having breastplates of fire and jacinth and brimstone. They represent Satan's priests...
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
Notice that fire and smoke and brimstone issues out of their... MOUTHS. That means WORDS to cause DECEPTION, not... a literal military army of tanks, infantry and planes!
These attacking locusts for the end was first mentioned back in the Book of Joel. And God showed there He is Who is sending this locust army upon the rebellious of His people (Joel 2).
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
These are NOT actual monsters like some stupid Hollywood movie. What issues out of their MOUTHS are LIES to cause deception. That is what the coming time of "great tribulation" will be about, false bowing to the coming fake-Messiah in place of Jesus Christ. That is what this locust army will be about, and it involves Satan's angels that he brings with him once they are booted out the heavenly down to our earthly dimension.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
KJV
I'm saying we are in the time of tribulation... the last days. And there will be a time of great tribulation near the end of that time, even such as will have not been seen/experienced ~ to a much greater degree than has been seen experienced ~ up to that time. Futurism, which is currently in favor in most churches, says that most New Testament prophecy concerns events immediately prior to the final return of Jesus Christ to the earth. For most futurists, the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation does not refer to the fall of Jerusalem or to the continuing problems of the church in all ages, but is a period just prior to Christ’s return (usually of seven years in duration). John, the writer of Revelation, was not a futurist... <smile> ...and ~ not to compare myself to the apostle John, but ~ neither am I. <smile> In is prologue, John writes:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" (Revelation 1:1-3).
"The time is near." The words of John's prophecy were not irrelevant even to his first-century readers... or only intensely relevant to those living now two thousand (plus) years in the future. To put it succinctly, the setting of John's Revelation and the time period in which it occurs/spans... misplaced/misunderstood by many well-meaning Christians.
I'm... very well aware of that.
Two things to this: (1) I don't "leave" the context of "Where, Lord?" at all, I clarify (clarified, in my previous post) the context of that question, applying it correctly, and (2) as I have said previously to another poster, the issue is not really "where the one will be taken to," but rather which one the one taken is.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
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Hmm, well, I agree here, at least to an extent.
That may be, but is not always the case...
Well, some are wrong, for sure, but just having errant ideas about the end times is not a result of "fleshly" ~ which is really to say sinful ~ thinking.
Hmmm, dispensationalism... :)
Disagree.
Two things here:
1) Yes, Jesus said what He said, of course... But He's not implying, as it seems you might hold, that we just hear of these wars but they're not really taking place, that what you will be hearing is fiction. He's saying that even though these wars and rumors of war are occurring ~ even though it is not a time of peace ~ the wars and rumors of wars are not themselves signs of the end.
2) What you say here is, respectfully, a bit of a contradiction, Davy. If it is really a time of peace, and no war or rumor of war, then it would then be a time of no tribulation, much less a great tribulation.
Disagree. This is a personal letter from Paul to the Christians in Thessalonica, so what he was saying was just as relevant to them as it is to us two thousand years later. The deceived have always, and always will (until Jesus returns, of course) take comfort in themselves and their own prosperity, even thinking of themselves as their own savior, and they will bring destruction upon themselves.
Grace and peace to you, Davy.
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Well, I am not a Futurist, nor a Preterist, nor an Historicist, nor an Amillennialist, nor a Dispensationalist, nor a Hyper-Dispensationalist, etc. I stay strictly with what is written in God's Word, and every one of those seminary categories I mention have major areas that leave God's written Word. Futurism in particular is allied with man's false Pre-tribulation Rapture theory, which is not written in God's Word. Jesus revealed His coming to gather His saints is AFTER the tribulation, and He was speaking of the "great tribulation" where He said that.
Nor do I pay attention to John Darby's Church Ages Dispensationalist theories.
And something I warn brethren about, which the seminaries love to do, is against man's propensity to create pop slogans and catchphrases, which most often go outside of God's written Word. Therefore, phrases in Revelation 1 like "shortly come to pass", "the time is at hand", etc., must be weighed in conjunction with the subject context in which it appears. That means just quoting those phrases in the style of a 'slogan' is going outside the context of God's Word. I mean, Apostles Paul, Peter, and James all used the phrase "last days" for their time, and that was how many years ago? So I'm not here to play seminary games.
Yet leaving the context of the "Where, Lord?" question Christ's disciples asked Him is exactly... what you did. You instead went all the way back up to the Luke 17:20-21 verses where the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom would come, which is a completely different... subject! And by doing that you also left Jesus' answer to their question. So I don't know who you think... you're talking to here. I saw what you did with trying to 'change' the actual context of what Jesus' disciples asked Him in relation to the following... subject...
Luke 17:34-37
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
Now if you pull my other leg, it plays Jingle Bells.
Yeah it is, thinking with their 'fleshy' mind is one of the main problems many brethren have. Otherwise how men's false seminary doctrines turns pieces of Scripture into slogans, like the word "tribulation" and "the time is near", wouldn't work against them.
You actually think the EVENTS that Jesus gave with the final 3 Trumpet - Woe periods is dispensationalism? If you believe that, then it shows you have very little understanding in Christ's Book of Revelation.
Based on your own words, I already believe YOU are a Dispensationalist, for they love to use that church "ages" expression like you did.
Disagree with Jesus in Matthew 24:6 all you want, but the opposite of wars and rumors of wars is what He was pointing to when He said, "...but the end is not yet".
Also, in 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul made it plain that the deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" just prior to the "sudden destruction" event upon them on the "day of the Lord". Paul was pulling that from the Old Testament prophets, so that idea is not just The New Testament Scripture only.
Uh, what!?!
No! Jesus said we would hear of wars and rumors of wars, and that DOES mean they will be taking place, NOT some fiction that is dreamed up in your fleshy mind. I mean, you are funny! You even take a passage from Lord Jesus where He is giving a direct SIGN to be watching for, and you turn it into some allegorical story?
I'm done with your silly reasoning.
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