rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Yes it is sobering to think that it is our choice to be one of the wise virgins or one of the foolish virginsBelieve and look for the very near rapture "catching up" or be left behind===your choice!!
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Yes it is sobering to think that it is our choice to be one of the wise virgins or one of the foolish virginsBelieve and look for the very near rapture "catching up" or be left behind===your choice!!
He asked you interpret for us mat 24: 44"There's more things in heaven and earth, MA2444, than are dreamt of in your philosophy..." - Shakespeare mostly.
Exactly.
When those verses are in context, we have Jesus saying He is GATHERING pretrib
38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
Jesus said;
Before the flood normal life with commerce and peacetime setting.
Noah enters ark ( a type of heaven) pretrib
The flood comes and takes Noah and sinners away.
HMMMMM...Taken away. All are taken away...Hmmmmm
Jesus said "That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man"
Then he says in his pretrib coming/gathering;
One taken, one left.
50% of those groups of 2 vanish.
Half the church stays.
....and we are still in Jesus setting of BEFORE THE FLOOD.
He concludes with;
Coming as a thief in the night
Be ready
Watch for his pretrib coming.
But you will not see a postribber ever honestly address those verses.
Why???
Because they have a white knuckle grip on a farce that Jesus can only come one time.
A babe in Christ with a bible can debate these misguided souls.
Mat 25 is a continuation of The "before the flood" setting.
Rev 14 has gatherings during the trib..
Plus the other pretrib rapture verses.
I think that is well said as to what our Lord Jesus meant with using the flood of Noah's time to point to the deceived and wicked being swept away, which is actually about those who want to be 'taken' in Christ's parable of Luke 17:35-37.Yes. His life was preserved. Again, what you're saying... the context you are putting this into... is very different than Jesus's in Matthew 24 and Luke 17. The ones who will be "removed" ~ swept away, destoyed (but certainly not annihilated) ~ as a result of the final Judgment are the unrepentant... unbelievers... who, even up to that time, will remain unaware and will be surprised, even mortified, at the outcome, as we see in Matthew 25:44, and will then, at Jesus's command ~ "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" ~ will "go away into eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46).
Thank you, Davy.I think that is well said as to what our Lord Jesus meant with using the flood of Noah's time to point to the deceived and wicked being swept away...
I would disagree with this; they want to preserve their lives (and retain all their possessions as part of that). No one "wants to be taken," but some will be ruined/destroyed ~ their lives brought to nothing ~ as a result of not believing, waiting patiently, and giving up themselves for Christ, as it were....which is actually about those who want to be 'taken' in Christ's parable of Luke 17:35-37.
150 days, yes, as Moses writes. I disagree that the number 5 represents grace. I would submit that 150 days of the waters prevailing upon the earth is significant, though, because that is the same amount of time it took for the waters to recede. So, in total, of course, that is 300 days, and we know the significance of the numbers 3 and 10; in many contexts in Scripture, they ~ along with 7, 12, and 1000 ~ communicate ideas of fullness and completeness, and in the case of the 300 total days, the fullness and completeness of His judgment upon the earth.Per Genesis 7, Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for a period of 150 days before the waters started receding. That period is symbolically represented as "five months" regarding the coming tribulation per Rev.9. (the 150 days representing 5 months per the old Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = a month. And the number 5 in God's Word symbolically represents Grace.)
Of course those brethren who wrongly believe being TAKEN do not intend to be in the wrong camp when Jesus does return after the great tribulation. Yet the first ones 'taken' Jesus shows in His answer will be wheresover the carcase is, that's where the fowls will be gathered together to feast. We don't need to hide that fact of His answer of Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28.I would disagree with this; they want to preserve their lives (and retain all their possessions as part of that). No one "wants to be taken," but some will be ruined/destroyed ~ their lives brought to nothing ~ as a result of not believing, waiting patiently, and giving up themselves for Christ, as it were.
So how will you link that to the "five months" of Rev.9 about the time of the 'stinging'? And have you not understood the waters as a flood out of the mouth of the serpent in Rev.12 is linked with that time of five months stinging by the locusts?150 days, yes, as Moses writes. I disagree that the number 5 represents grace. I would submit that 150 days of the waters prevailing upon the earth is significant, though, because that is the same amount of time it took for the waters to recede. So, in total, of course, that is 300 days, and we know the significance of the numbers 3 and 10; in many contexts in Scripture, they ~ along with 7, 12, and 1000 ~ communicate ideas of fullness and completeness, and in the case of the 300 total days, the fullness and completeness of His judgment upon the earth.
In "a, b, and c", you omitted the setting of " before the flood".Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The first thing to factor in here, verses 40-41 occur during verse 39. If we have verses 40-41 meaning a rapture prior to great trib and that verse 39 occurs during verses 40-41, and that this is prior to the beginning of great trib, one then has some explaining to do here.
If some are raptured at the time, and that those left behind(verse 39) are wiped out when these are raptured, and that the trib is 3.5 years, who then experiences this 3.5 year trib if some have been raptured and the rest have been wiped out at the beginning, not at the ending of this 3.5 year period?
No one with any sense is going to take any interpretation serious if that interpretation has verse 39 divorced from verses 40-41. IOW, whenever one insists verses 40-41 is meaning, that same one has to do the same with verse 39..
It would look like this
A) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus after great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Or it would look like this
B) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus before great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And not like this instead
C) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Obviously, this interpretation makes nonsense out of the 'then' in verse 40 if we have verse 39 meaning years later after when verse 40 is meaning, rather than when verse 40 is meaning.
Therefore, C) is not a valid interpretation. That only leaves A) and B) as the only two valid choices, except only one is actually valid since both choices can't be correct. If we assume it is B) that is correct, then like I already pointed out, who is it then that experiences the 3.5 years trib? It can't be anyone in verses 40-41 if they have been raptured before this 3.5 year period begins. Nor can it be anyone in verse 39 if they have been wiped out before this 3.5 years trib begins.
And let me guess, since you indicated no postribber ever honestly addresses those verses. What I just did here per this post, this too is another example of no post tribber ever honestly addressing these verses, right?
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The first thing to factor in here, verses 40-41 occur during verse 39. If we have verses 40-41 meaning a rapture prior to great trib and that verse 39 occurs during verses 40-41, and that this is prior to the beginning of great trib, one then has some explaining to do here.
If some are raptured at the time, and that those left behind(verse 39) are wiped out when these are raptured, and that the trib is 3.5 years, who then experiences this 3.5 year trib if some have been raptured and the rest have been wiped out at the beginning, not at the ending of this 3.5 year period?
No one with any sense is going to take any interpretation serious if that interpretation has verse 39 divorced from verses 40-41. IOW, whenever one insists verses 40-41 is meaning, that same one has to do the same with verse 39..
It would look like this
A) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus after great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Or it would look like this
B) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus before great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And not like this instead
C) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Obviously, this interpretation makes nonsense out of the 'then' in verse 40 if we have verse 39 meaning years later after when verse 40 is meaning, rather than when verse 40 is meaning.
Therefore, C) is not a valid interpretation. That only leaves A) and B) as the only two valid choices, except only one is actually valid since both choices can't be correct. If we assume it is B) that is correct, then like I already pointed out, who is it then that experiences the 3.5 years trib? It can't be anyone in verses 40-41 if they have been raptured before this 3.5 year period begins. Nor can it be anyone in verse 39 if they have been wiped out before this 3.5 years trib begins.
And let me guess, since you indicated no postribber ever honestly addresses those verses. What I just did here per this post, this too is another example of no post tribber ever honestly addressing these verses, right?
there is no model with all earth's inhabitants destroyed at the rapture.I think that is well said as to what our Lord Jesus meant with using the flood of Noah's time to point to the deceived and wicked being swept away, which is actually about those who want to be 'taken' in Christ's parable of Luke 17:35-37.
Per Genesis 7, Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for a period of 150 days before the waters started receding. That period is symbolically represented as "five months" regarding the coming tribulation per Rev.9. (the 150 days representing 5 months per the old Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = a month. And the number 5 in God's Word symbolically represents Grace.)
Nope.I think that is well said as to what our Lord Jesus meant with using the flood of Noah's time to point to the deceived and wicked being swept away, which is actually about those who want to be 'taken' in Christ's parable of Luke 17:35-37.
Per Genesis 7, Noah's ark was upon the height of the flood waters for a period of 150 days before the waters started receding. That period is symbolically represented as "five months" regarding the coming tribulation per Rev.9. (the 150 days representing 5 months per the old Hebrew reckoning of 30 days = a month. And the number 5 in God's Word symbolically represents Grace.)
Not I... If you were to change that to "all the earth's inhabitants who are unbelievers," or "who do not find favor with the LORD," then yes... Seems to me everyone here would say that, but maybe not...You guys just uncovered yet another anti pretribber dilemma. You guys are interpreting the "swept them all away" as ALL the earths inhabitants as destroyed.
Well, God promised that "the waters shall never again become a flood to destroy all flesh" (Genesis 9:15), so... well, just speaking for myself, certainly not. So, that, and the fact that there will be no "rapture," in the sense of "removal" of the ones who find favor with the LORD, but rather protection and safe-keeping through the final Judgment...Now I am wondering if yall think there will be an actual flood at the rapture?????
Hm. Well, no one "intends to be in the wrong camp," of course, but through the period of tribulation ~ which is now ~ those in this "wrong camp" believe themselves to be in the right, and that those in the other "camp" are foolish... which was the case in Noah's day and is true even today.Of course those brethren who wrongly believe being TAKEN do not intend to be in the wrong camp when Jesus does return after the great tribulation.
No one is "hiding" anything, at least not I.Yet the first ones 'taken' Jesus shows in His answer will be wheresover the carcass is, that's where the fowls will be gathered together to feast. We don't need to hide that fact of His answer of Luke 17:37 and Matthew 24:28.
I agree there is a close association of ~ parallel between ~ the two passages, but I think, from the impression I'm getting, in quite a different way than you suppose.So how will you link that to the "five months" of Rev.9 about the time of the 'stinging'? And have you not understood the waters as a flood out of the mouth of the serpent in Rev.12 is linked with that time of five months stinging by the locusts?
Woah! wait a minute.Hm. Well, no one "intends to be in the wrong camp," of course, but through the period of tribulation ~ which is now ~
Well, yeah, however... it still comes down to who is going to listen to God in HIS written Word vs. man in his. The majority of deceived brethren tend to operate on the idea of 'fads' and 'slogans' devised by clever men.... those in this "wrong camp" believe themselves to be in the right, and that those in the other "camp" are foolish... which was the case in Noah's day and is true even today.
Nope, I'd never agree to what you just said. His disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" SPECIFICALLY in response to what Jesus said about "two men in one bed, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left," and the "Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left." (Luke 17:34-35)No one is "hiding" anything, at least not I.
When Jesus says what He says in those verses, He's actually redirecting their misdirected question of "Where, Lord?" Previously in Luke 17:20-21, He said, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed." So He's answering in a parable, since He's already made it obvious. He does say, "Remember Lot's wife," and in saying what He says in Matthew 24:28 and Luke 17:37 tells them that they should not look back to "where the corpse is" or "where the vultures will gather" ~ or as Lot's wife did, back at Sodom and Gomorrah ~ but to let "the vultures" do that... to not seek to preserve their lives and thereby lose it.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
The first thing to factor in here, verses 40-41 occur during verse 39. If we have verses 40-41 meaning a rapture prior to great trib and that verse 39 occurs during verses 40-41, and that this is prior to the beginning of great trib, one then has some explaining to do here.
If some are raptured at the time, and that those left behind(verse 39) are wiped out when these are raptured, and that the trib is 3.5 years, who then experiences this 3.5 year trib if some have been raptured and the rest have been wiped out at the beginning, not at the ending of this 3.5 year period?
No one with any sense is going to take any interpretation serious if that interpretation has verse 39 divorced from verses 40-41. IOW, whenever one insists verses 40-41 is meaning, that same one has to do the same with verse 39..
It would look like this
A) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus after great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Or it would look like this
B) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus before great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
And not like this instead
C) And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be, thus after great tribulation.
Then, thus before great tribulation, shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Obviously, this interpretation makes nonsense out of the 'then' in verse 40 if we have verse 39 meaning years later after when verse 40 is meaning, rather than when verse 40 is meaning.
Therefore, C) is not a valid interpretation. That only leaves A) and B) as the only two valid choices, except only one is actually valid since both choices can't be correct. If we assume it is B) that is correct, then like I already pointed out, who is it then that experiences the 3.5 years trib? It can't be anyone in verses 40-41 if they have been raptured before this 3.5 year period begins. Nor can it be anyone in verse 39 if they have been wiped out before this 3.5 years trib begins.
And let me guess, since you indicated no postribber ever honestly addresses those verses. What I just did here per this post, this too is another example of no post tribber ever honestly addressing these verses, right?
Too many brethren look at Revelation 9 as if it is the time of the Gog/Magog war with the 200 million army mentioned there, so their timing of endtime events are skewed, a result of their 'fleshy' thinking.I agree there is a close association of ~ parallel between ~ the two passages, but I think, from the impression I'm getting, in quite a different way than you suppose.
I'm saying we are in the time of tribulation... the last days. And there will be a time of great tribulation near the end of that time, even such as will have not been seen/experienced ~ to a much greater degree than has been seen experienced ~ up to that time. Futurism, which is currently in favor in most churches, says that most New Testament prophecy concerns events immediately prior to the final return of Jesus Christ to the earth. For most futurists, the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation does not refer to the fall of Jerusalem or to the continuing problems of the church in all ages, but is a period just prior to Christ’s return (usually of seven years in duration). John, the writer of Revelation, was not a futurist... <smile> ...and ~ not to compare myself to the apostle John, but ~ neither am I. <smile> In is prologue, John writes:Woah! wait a minute.
Are you saying we today are already in... the "great tribulation" Jesus warned about?
I'm... very well aware of that.I'd never agree to what you just said.
Two things to this: (1) I don't "leave" the context of "Where, Lord?" at all, I clarify (clarified, in my previous post) the context of that question, applying it correctly, and (2) as I have said previously to another poster, the issue is not really "where the one will be taken to," but rather which one the one taken is.You completely leave the context of "Where, Lord?" when you try to spiritualize away His disciple's simple question about where the one will be "taken' to.
Hmm, well, I agree here, at least to an extent.Too many brethren look at Revelation 9 as if it is the time of the Gog/Magog war with the 200 million army mentioned there...
That may be, but is not always the case......so their timing of endtime events are skewed...
Well, some are wrong, for sure, but just having errant ideas about the end times is not a result of "fleshly" ~ which is really to say sinful ~ thinking....a result of their 'fleshy' thinking.
Hmmm, dispensationalism...The Revelation 9 chapter is covering future events that occur on the 5th Trumpet - 1st Woe period, and the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. Per the Rev.11 chapter, Jesus takes over all the world's kingdoms on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe, so that has to mean... the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period is "great tribulation" time.
That 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe, the time of "great tribulation", begins at this point...
Rev 9:12-19
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
That time is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, the time of "great tribulation".
Disagree.Jesus showed us the great tribulation time will be about world peace.
Two things here:Jesus said we'd hear of wars and rumors of war, but don't be troubled for those things must be, BUT THE END IS NOT YET (Matt.24:6). So the END (tribulation time)... will not be a time of war and rumors of war, which means a time of peace.
Disagree. This is a personal letter from Paul to the Christians in Thessalonica, so what he was saying was just as relevant to them as it is to us two thousand years later. The deceived have always, and always will (until Jesus returns, of course) take comfort in themselves and their own prosperity, even thinking of themselves as their own savior, and they will bring destruction upon themselves.This also is what Apostle Paul revealed in 1 Thess.5 about the deceived who will be saying, "Peace and safety", just prior to the time of "sudden destruction" upon them, which happens on the last day of this world. That means they have to be saying that during the time of "great tribulation" just prior to Jesus' coming.
I'm saying we are in the time of tribulation... the last days. And there will be a time of great tribulation near the end of that time, even such as will have not been seen/experienced ~ to a much greater degree than has been seen experienced ~ up to that time. Futurism, which is currently in favor in most churches, says that most New Testament prophecy concerns events immediately prior to the final return of Jesus Christ to the earth. For most futurists, the Great Tribulation spoken of in Matthew 24 and the book of Revelation does not refer to the fall of Jerusalem or to the continuing problems of the church in all ages, but is a period just prior to Christ’s return (usually of seven years in duration). John, the writer of Revelation, was not a futurist... <smile> ...and ~ not to compare myself to the apostle John, but ~ neither am I. <smile> In is prologue, John writes:
"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near" (Revelation 1:1-3).
"The time is near." The words of John's prophecy were not irrelevant even to his first-century readers... or only intensely relevant to those living now two thousand (plus) years in the future. To put it succinctly, the setting of John's Revelation and the time period in which it occurs/spans... misplaced/misunderstood by many well-meaning Christians.
Yet leaving the context of the "Where, Lord?" question Christ's disciples asked Him is exactly... what you did. You instead went all the way back up to the Luke 17:20-21 verses where the Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom would come, which is a completely different... subject! And by doing that you also left Jesus' answer to their question. So I don't know who you think... you're talking to here. I saw what you did with trying to 'change' the actual context of what Jesus' disciples asked Him in relation to the following... subject...Two things to this: (1) I don't "leave" the context of "Where, Lord?" at all, I clarify (clarified, in my previous post) the context of that question, applying it correctly, and (2) as I have said previously to another poster, the issue is not really "where the one will be taken to," but rather which onethe one taken is.
Yeah it is, thinking with their 'fleshy' mind is one of the main problems many brethren have. Otherwise how men's false seminary doctrines turns pieces of Scripture into slogans, like the word "tribulation" and "the time is near", wouldn't work against them.Hmm, well, I agree here, at least to an extent.
That may be, but is not always the case...
Well, some are wrong, for sure, but just having errant ideas about the end times is not a result of "fleshly" ~ which is really to say sinful ~ thinking.
You actually think the EVENTS that Jesus gave with the final 3 Trumpet - Woe periods is dispensationalism? If you believe that, then it shows you have very little understanding in Christ's Book of Revelation.Hmmm, dispensationalism...![]()
Disagree.
Uh, what!?!Two things here:
1) Yes, Jesus said what He said, of course... But He's not implying, as it seems you might hold, that we just hear of these wars but they're not really taking place, that what you will be hearing is fiction. He's saying that even though these wars and rumors of war are occurring ~ even though it is not a time of peace ~ the wars and rumors of wars are not themselves signs of the end.