More baseless assertions from people who haven't even read The Poem of the Man-God...
The day any of you read all four-thousand plus pages of it, my ears will perk up.
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More baseless assertions from people who haven't even read The Poem of the Man-God...
The day any of you read all four-thousand plus pages of it, my ears will perk up.
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
Yeah. just do a forum search for "Maria Valtorta". It brings back 10 pages of results.
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
No thanks, I'll pass. No one needs to read the Satanic Bible, the Book of Mormon or the Quran to know they do not contain truth. By the same token, no one needs to read a 4000 page book to know Maria Valtorta doesn't have any truth either.
So, you want to continue attacking The Poem of the Man-God, a book that you've never even read, and cite sources whose claims against it you can't even verify, because of your refusal to read it... Got it. Yea, who wants to waste time being properly knowledgeable about a subject? Much easier to just pretend to be knowledgeable, make baseless assumptions, and ignore people when they show us our errors, huh?
You're willing to throw reason out the window to justify your laziness, negligence, prejudice, and bias. If anyone else, especially a Catholic, came into a discussion and said "I don't need to do x. I'm just right", you know that wouldn't fly with you or those like you.
Hypocrites.
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shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
When the US treasury trains people to spot counterfeit bills they don't train them using phony bills. They train them with the real bills and it makes spotting counterfeits easy. So it is with a disciple of Jesus...they only need to study his word and not some garbage from a deluded false teacher to know the truth.
And, after training, they go about spotting authentic and counterfeit bills by examining the bills themselves. Have you ever just worked as a cashier? A cashier is shown how to spot a counterfeit bill. When a customer hands them, for example, a one-hundred dollar bill, they're supposed to examine it, and find out if it's counterfeit or authentic, not refuse to examine it and assume it's counterfeit or authentic. You refuse to examine (read) the very subject matter that is The Poem of the Man-God, and just assume it's counterfeit (not from God). And, then you cite sources whose claims against it you can't even verify because you haven't read it!
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shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
yes....and I examined the works of the false prophetess and found them lies. I don't have to read every page to see it is false.
IS "THE POEM OF THE MAN-GOD" SIMPLY A BAD NOVEL?
Maria Valtorta's multi-volume life of Jesus flirts with heresy and exhibits bad taste. Its claim to authenticity have been rejected by Rome.
by Father Mitch Pacwa, S.J.
"The Poem of the Man-God" is a five-volume "narrative" of the life of Jesus written in the 1940s by a sickly Italian woman named Maria Valtorta. "Poem" purports to fill in the details of Jesus' life left blank by the four Gospels. Such narratives have been produced since the second century A.D. Some were written by gnostic heretics. Some by New Agers and occultists. And some were produced by pious Christians who made up stories about Jesus to edify their readers and listeners.
The four Gospels do not give a biography of Jesus--or of anyone else in His life. Their purpose is evangelical and theological--to proclaim the Good News that human beings need for their salvation. Thus, for centuries, the "hidden life" of Jesus has been the subject for speculation.
"The Poem of the Man-God" is in this tradition of apocryphal literature on New Testament themes. Valtorta claimed that she was the "secretary" of Jesus and Mary, and was setting down the divinely inspired truth about Jesus' life. The Church has rejected this claim. Nevertheless, "Poem" has become quite popular, particularly among Catholics as well.
Remarkably, the book has grown in popularity in part because its champions claim that high Church officials--including one Pope--endorsed it. They haven't. In fact, "Poem" was included on the Index of Forbidden books until the abolition of the Index in the 1960s. No less an authority than Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, reiterates the Church's rejection of the claims made for "The Poem of the Man-God
Vatican repeats caution on visions of Maria Valtorta
Continue to this story on KatolischCWN Editor's Note: The Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith (DDF) has reaffirmed that the writings of Maria Valtorta are not recognized by the Church as authentic revelations.
Maria Valtorta, an Italian mystic of the 20th century, drew a wide audience with her massive work The God-Man, in which she described visions that she said she had received from Jesus Christ. The DDF, responding to persistent questions about the visions, issued a statement on March 5 saying that the Church “does not recognize their divine inspiration.”
The DDF judgment matches a negative verdict that had been issued by the same office—then known as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith—in 1985, under the direction of then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger.
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Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
You couldn't have examined The Poem of the Man-God because you haven't read it, nor the arguments of Maria Valtorta's supporters, and thus you can't verify any of your own source's claims against it! Others, including myself, have put in the time and work. We've read all four-thousand plus pages of The Poem of the Man-God, as well as Maria Valtorta's other writings, and have familiarized ourselves with the arguments of both Maria Valtorta's critics and supporters.
You haven't read any of it, so how do you know that your own sources who claim to have read it are reiterating what they supposedly read accurately? And, of course you're going to say, "I don't have to read every page to see it is false", because you don't want to read over four-thousand pages. If anyone else said that though? You wouldn't let that fly. More hypocrisy.
On February 3rd, 1944, Jesus said, “Do you know, Mary [Maria Valtorta], what you are doing? Or rather, what I am doing, in showing you the Gospel? Making a stronger attempt to bring men to Me. You yearned for it with your fervent prayers. I will no longer confine Myself to words. They tire men and detach them. It is a fault, but it is so. I will have recourse to visions, also of My Gospel, and I will explain them to make them more attractive and clear. I give you the comfort of seeing them. I give everybody the possibility of wishing to know Me. And if it is of no avail, and like cruel children they should throw away the gift without understanding its value, you will be left with My present, and they with My indignation. I shall be able once again to repeat the old reproach: "We played for you and you would not dance; we sang dirges and you would not weep." But it does not matter. Let them, the inconvertible ones, heap burning coals on their heads and let us turn to the little sheep seeking to become acquainted with their Shepherd. It is I, and you are the staff leading them to Me." (The Poem of the Man-God: Vol. I)
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shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
I have read enough to know it's all delusion. Why should I read the whole thing? I don't have to eat a whole rotten apple to know it's rotten. One bite is enough.
Even the Roman Catholic Church reject that garbage. I suggest you read this: Religious and Spiritual Delusions in Schizophrenia
Sister-n-Christ
Well-Known Member
I think they promote Maria's delusion just to get to Christians here.
Earlier he defended her receiving messages from Christ as like into what the Paul received.
Garbage is an all encompassing word for Maria's works.
Big Boy Johnson
Well-Known Member
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
Ed agrees . Ed zach Lee . GOD dont lie .
And i want everyone to go and read again the book of revelation .
We will see a place of eternal torment is there and for who it is .
THEN we see a dire warning near the end of that book
that says ANY man that adds to or takes from .
SO i highly suggest folks quit trying to remove the idea of such a place.
Add to or take from . Now lets read what happens to the one who dares to do such a thing .
They gonna find out first hand that the very place they cliamed did not exist
DO EXIST . but then ITS TOO LATE as they wail in such a place .
I have a wonderful and simple idea .
Rather than folks trying to omit things
WHY NOT JUST PREACH JESUS THE CHRIST . cause HE WHO BELEIVES wont be THERE IN said wailing place .
SEE how easy and simple that is . Now to the trenches one and all .
amigo de christo
Well-Known Member
So simple it truly is . Behold BOTH the goodness and severity of GOD .
Allow me to ask a question and then let us hear lil johnnys answer from the back of the classroom .
Hello fellow students the question today is
WHO wont end up in the lake of fire , in hells torments .
And the room goes silent and then a little voice
from the back of the classroom says , HEY , i know .
THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS THE CHRIST . now how simple is that .
gotta say a sheep one has no worry of that place . the goats , WELL they better be totally terrified is all i can say .
ITS HIGH TIME we preach , we persuade men of the dire and absolute necessary need
TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST . Always remember interfaith is of anti christ . I conclude this message
with a resounding set of words , TO THE LORD BE ALL GLORY PRAISE AND THANKSGIVINGS .
Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
You haven't read any of it, nor any of the arguments of her supporters, and thus how do you know that your own sources's claims are accurate? And, of course you're going to say "I don't have to read all of it" because you don't want to read over four-thousand pages. If anyone else said that though? You wouldn't let that fly. More hypocrisy.
Actually, in February 2025, the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith put out a statement giving their opinion about Maria Valtorta's writings, stating that "it cannot be considered having a supernatural origin" (and they didn't even explain why) but they've been wrong before. You should not only read the subject matter, which is The Poem of the Man-God: Vols. I-V, but also read the following article: Response to the Vatican's 2025 Press Release on Maria Valtorta, as well as A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work, especially the chapters on proofs in support of her writings having a supernatural origin.
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Part I
(I) The results from the astronomical and meteorological analysis of Maria Valtorta's Work by Professor Emilio Matricciani and Dr. Liberato De Caro, where they concluded:
"The richness of narrative elements contained in The Gospel as Revealed to Me (or The Poem of the Man-God) by Maria Valtorta has allowed to pursue both astronomical and meteorological studies, suited to verify as much as possible what she states. Indeed, Maria Valtorta affirmed to have witnessed in mystic visions the life of Jesus, and in particular his three years of public life, reporting detailed descriptions of landscapes, costumes, uses, roads, towns with their buildings (including the Temple in Jerusalem) and streets, rivers, lakes, hills, valleys, plantations, climate and rainfall rainy days, night sky with its constellations, stars and planets in the Holy Land, all information that should belong to a period of 2000 years ago. This is not possible from a rational point of view, but from this study a surprising and unexpected result emerges: Maria Valtorta narration seems to be not a fruit of her fantasy. In fact, thanks to a complex and rigorous astronomical analysis of the narrative elements present in her writings, it has been possible to determine a precise chronology of every event of Jesus’ life that she tells us, even if no explicit calendar date is reported in her writings. In particular, this study has led to dating the crucifixion of Jesus in Friday, April 23 of the year 34, a date already proposed by da I. Newton.
Maria Valtorta has also recorded in the EMV the presence of rain and this has suggested to compare her observations with the current meteorological data concerning the number of rainy days in the Holy Land, as recorded by the Israel Meteorological Service (IMS), because this random variable, as shown, seems to be quite independent by the limited climatic changes that have characterized the Holy Land in the last 2000 years. What has emerged is, once more, surprising and unexpected because the annual and even the monthly frequencies of rainy days found in the EMV correspond to what we find today in the IMS data bank. It seems that she has written down observations and facts really happened at the time of Jesus’ life, as a real witness of them would have done. The question arises, unsolved from a point of view exclusively rational, how all this is possible because what Maria Valtorta writes down cannot, in any way, be traced back to her fantasy or to her astronomical and meteorological knowledge.
In conclusion, if from one hand the scientific inquire has evidenced all the surprising and unexpected results reported and discussed in this paper, on the other hand our actual scientific knowledge cannot readily explain how these results are possible."
__________________________________________
"We have examined and studied the huge amount of literary works written by the Italian mystic Maria Valtorta, to assess similarities and differences. We have used mathematical and statistical tools developed for specifically studying deep linguistic aspects of texts, such as the readability index, the number of characters per word, the number of words per sentence, the number of punctuation marks per sentence and the number of words per punctuation marks, known as the word interval, an index that links the previous indices to fundamental aspects of the short−term memory of reader/listener.
The general trend obtained with statistical confidence tests is enough clear. The literary works explicitly attributable to Maria Valtorta (Autobiography and Descriptions) differ significantly from those of the literary works that, according to her claim, are attributable to the alleged characters Jesus and Mary, and when this is not true, as with the number of words per sentence, PF, (Figure 11a, right panel) and the word interval IP (Figure 12a, right panel), this happens only with Jesus says and Mary says. It seems that when Jesus and Mary allegedly speak directly to her, according to her claim, they adapt their communication to the capacity and robust processing time of her short−term memory. On the contrary, when Jesus speaks to a general audience (Parables and Sermons and Speeches) he adopts a significant lower word interval and shorter sentences, because the people may not have had such a good short-term memory as Maria Valtorta did.
Another interesting finding is the great similarity of the texts attributed to Jesus (Parables and Sermons and Speeches), a fact that should be expected in a real situation because this character, in both cases, allegedly speaks to a popular audience.
The comparison with the Italian literature is very striking. A single author, namely Maria Valtorta, seems to be able to write texts so diverse to cover the entire range of the Italian literature.
In conclusion, what do these findings mean? That Maria Valtorta is such a good writer to be able to modulate the linguistic parameters in so many different ways and as a function of character of the plot and type of literary text, so as to cover almost the entire range of the Italian literature? Or that visions and dictations really occurred and she was only a mystical, very intelligent and talented “writing tool”? Of course, no answer grounded in science can be given to the latter question.
As a final observation, the analysis performed in this paper could be done, of course, on other similar mystics’ writings. This could help theologians, working in team with scholars accustomed to using mathematics in their research, to better study mystical revelations by mathematically studying the alleged divine texts."
__________________________________________
(III) "Prof. Leo A. Brodeur, M.A., Lèsl., Ph.D., H.Sc.D., the Director of the Valtorta Research Center, actively read, researched, and wrote in defense of Maria Valtorta’s writings. Here is one prominent excerpt he wrote:
Arguments for a Supernatural Origin [For those who state] that Valtorta's writings were not supernatural in origin, did they investigate to see what kind of person Valtorta was? Had they done so, they would have quickly found that she was a good, earnest, devout Catholic, an invalid who had a deep prayer life and lived according to high moral standards. They would have found that she often claimed, explicitly, in no uncertain terms that she was having visions and dictations from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and that she fully realized the gravity of her claims.
Now had her visions and dictations been mere literary forms of her own deliberate invention, she would have been an unscrupulous liar; but this hypothesis is excluded by the testimonies of all the priests and nuns and lay people who knew her.
Or what if Valtorta had been insane and had imagined all those visions and dictations and mistaken them for real mystical occurrences (and thus escaped the accusation of being a hoaxer)? This hypothesis of lunacy falls flat in the light of her daily living during the years that she wrote. Within the limits of her physical handicaps, she functioned very well: she cared for people, kept up-to-date on current world events, wrote coherent, insightful letters, and had a witty, bright, keen mind as observed by all her visitors, some of whom were Church scholars or university educated laymen." (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work)
@shepherdsword
Part II
(IV) Jean Aulagnier describes what he did and his findings in this excerpt from his book:
"Some, even sincere Catholics, may still have doubts about Maria’s work. Is it an authentic revelation? Or is it just the roaming imaginations of a suffering mystical soul? After all, her writings could have been no more than personal reactions to her religious upbringing.
It is in this connection that a scientific approach to Maria Valtorta’s work was timely. I thus began to analyze her writings with the same method that I had used in my previous historical research, which had yielded such positive results.
First of all, I noticed that Maria Valtorta’s work consists of over 700 scenes. More than 600 concern Jesus’ Public Ministry alone, which spanned approximately 1200 days. This gives us an average of one scene every second day. I sought to determine whether it would be possible to use these writings to establish a precise chronology of Jesus’ Public Ministry.
There were three possibilities.
1. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish a chronology that would be confirmed by all other historical data on the life of Christ. In this case, my test would 199 be successful. We would have an excellent reason to disregard the possibility that Maria Valtorta’s writings were the result of her own imagination.
2. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish a chronology that was internally consistent, but would contradict known historical facts.
3. It might be impossible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish any kind of chronology at all. In the last two cases, my test would fail since Maria Valtorta’s writings would have little or no historical value. This, however, still would not mean that Maria Valtorta’s writings were merely the fruit of her own imagination, since many mystical writings in the past did not have any particular historical value either. Furthermore, there is already evidence that Maria Valtorta’s visions provide an accurate picture of Palestine in Jesus’ time. She had never traveled to Israel or perused the literature of experts describing their archeological finds. Her writings were not revised by anyone else. Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.
There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate. She only obtained the average education of well-to-do girls in early 20th century Italy. She never went to a university. She had no reference books at her disposal, except for the Bible and Pope Pius X’s catechism. In spite of this, some of the things that she wrote are only known by Biblical scholars and experts on ancient Israel. She did not have a gift for long, involved calculations. Yet, by our standards, the Jewish calendar in Jesus’ time was rather complicated, and it is impossible that Maria Valtorta could have imagined, let alone chanced upon, all kinds of chronological details that would stand up to historical scrutiny." (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work)
__________________________________________
(V) "David J. Webster observed that Valtorta named nine towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death. He posted a landmark 31-page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta's writings. The Poem of the Man-God may be the very first private revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine.
In the above article David Webster summarizes his findings below (some of this is similar to what you read on the last page, but this is worded a little differently here):
Of the staggering total of all 255 geographical sites from Palestine mentioned in the Poem 79 (all marked * &**) were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Atlas which represented the scholarship of her day. 62 (all marked **) of these 79 were listed neither by the ISBE Atlas or the 184-page 1968 McMillan Bible Atlas. Where did Maria Valtorta in the mid 1940’s get all these names? Are they fictitious? Of those 17 missed by the 1939 ISBE but included in the 1968 MBA, 9 have been confirmed by an “ancient external source.” Since then an additional 20 sites have been confirmed in the 1989 HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible. This is a total number of 29 confirmations of the original 79 unknown or obscure geographical 229 sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem since the ISBE Atlas was published in 1939. 24 of these 29 do not even have an obscure reference in the Bible!" (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work)
and so on...
Part II
(IV) Jean Aulagnier describes what he did and his findings in this excerpt from his book:
"Some, even sincere Catholics, may still have doubts about Maria’s work. Is it an authentic revelation? Or is it just the roaming imaginations of a suffering mystical soul? After all, her writings could have been no more than personal reactions to her religious upbringing.
It is in this connection that a scientific approach to Maria Valtorta’s work was timely. I thus began to analyze her writings with the same method that I had used in my previous historical research, which had yielded such positive results.
First of all, I noticed that Maria Valtorta’s work consists of over 700 scenes. More than 600 concern Jesus’ Public Ministry alone, which spanned approximately 1200 days. This gives us an average of one scene every second day. I sought to determine whether it would be possible to use these writings to establish a precise chronology of Jesus’ Public Ministry.
There were three possibilities.
1. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish a chronology that would be confirmed by all other historical data on the life of Christ. In this case, my test would 199 be successful. We would have an excellent reason to disregard the possibility that Maria Valtorta’s writings were the result of her own imagination.
2. It might be possible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish a chronology that was internally consistent, but would contradict known historical facts.
3. It might be impossible to use Maria Valtorta’s writings to establish any kind of chronology at all. In the last two cases, my test would fail since Maria Valtorta’s writings would have little or no historical value. This, however, still would not mean that Maria Valtorta’s writings were merely the fruit of her own imagination, since many mystical writings in the past did not have any particular historical value either. Furthermore, there is already evidence that Maria Valtorta’s visions provide an accurate picture of Palestine in Jesus’ time. She had never traveled to Israel or perused the literature of experts describing their archeological finds. Her writings were not revised by anyone else. Therefore, there is no explanation for the archeological and geographical accuracy of her writings except an intervention from the beyond. These factors exclude the possibility of a hoax or a mental disorder.
I proceeded with my research, and discovered that it was possible to establish the exact dates of the events described by Maria Valtorta. These dates do match all the historical data found in the Gospels and in other reliable sources. Her writings withstood the test of my complex analytical method, and my book reveals the chronology that I was able to derive.There is no way that Maria Valtorta could have composed thousands of pages of fiction that would be so historically accurate. She only obtained the average education of well-to-do girls in early 20th century Italy. She never went to a university. She had no reference books at her disposal, except for the Bible and Pope Pius X’s catechism. In spite of this, some of the things that she wrote are only known by Biblical scholars and experts on ancient Israel. She did not have a gift for long, involved calculations. Yet, by our standards, the Jewish calendar in Jesus’ time was rather complicated, and it is impossible that Maria Valtorta could have imagined, let alone chanced upon, all kinds of chronological details that would stand up to historical scrutiny." (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work)
__________________________________________
(V) "David J. Webster observed that Valtorta named nine towns and villages that were not discovered until after her death. He posted a landmark 31-page article that fundamentally proves the authenticity of Maria Valtorta's writings. The Poem of the Man-God may be the very first private revelation ever to be scientifically proven genuine.
In the above article David Webster summarizes his findings below (some of this is similar to what you read on the last page, but this is worded a little differently here):
Of the staggering total of all 255 geographical sites from Palestine mentioned in the Poem 79 (all marked * &**) were not listed in the 1939 International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Atlas which represented the scholarship of her day. 62 (all marked **) of these 79 were listed neither by the ISBE Atlas or the 184-page 1968 McMillan Bible Atlas. Where did Maria Valtorta in the mid 1940’s get all these names? Are they fictitious? Of those 17 missed by the 1939 ISBE but included in the 1968 MBA, 9 have been confirmed by an “ancient external source.” Since then an additional 20 sites have been confirmed in the 1989 HarperCollins Atlas of the Bible. This is a total number of 29 confirmations of the original 79 unknown or obscure geographical 229 sites in Palestine mentioned in the Poem since the ISBE Atlas was published in 1939. 24 of these 29 do not even have an obscure reference in the Bible!" (A Summa and Encyclopedia to Maria Valtorta’s Extraordinary Work)
and so on...
You had said, "Jesus doesn't use mystics". In reply, I said, "You know that God has spoken through humans since the beginning: Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Habakkuk, Zephaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi, Elijah, and Elisha. The terms "mystic" and/or "visionary" are applied to such people because of the kind of interaction they had with God. Then, God became human and spoke to us in the flesh. After leaving the Earth and returning to Heaven, He has continued to speak through humans. And I, and I assume you, haven't had experiences with God like those people have (one day you and/or I might), and thus we aren't considered mystics and visionaries at this time. But Maria Valtorta was because she received visions and took dictation from Jesus and other heavenly persons, and wrote down all that she heard and saw."
shepherdsword
Well-Known Member
Dude...you need to get off this misplaced hero worship and focus on the one who died for you...that wasn't Maria, it was The Lord Jesus Christ.
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