Jesus is the Son of his God

[HealthyShape]

The history of Israel also contains good. The Old Testament is the Hebrew Bible. The Bible of Jewish monotheists.



No. I posted that there were no Christians in Old Testament days.



Unbelieving Jews are Israel. Believing Jews are the Israel of God.

Let me get this straight. The youtube videos you posted on the previous page - these videos represent the Israel that hated Jesus and Christians or the "Israel of God"?

 

[Matthias]

Let me get this straight. The youtube videos you posted on the previous page - these videos represent the Israel that hated Jesus and Christians or the "Israel of God"?

The videos I posted was in response to a comment made by a trinitarian member. He said that the Jews changed the scriptures, replacing the word echad with the word yachid. They didn’t. All of the videos were made by Jews who do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth, himself an observant Jew, is the Messiah promised by the God of Israel.

Did you watch them? Are you able to confirm that the word which they used when reading and reciting the creed which Jesus made his own is echad?

 

[HealthyShape]

The videos I posted was in response to a comment made by a trinitarian member. He said that the Jews changed the scriptures, replacing the word echad with the word yachid. They didn’t. All of the videos were made by Jews who do not believe that Jesus of Nazareth, himself an observant Jew, is the Messiah promised by the God of Israel.

So, let me get this straight - where is the "creed of Judaism" you are talking about so much? Where? In what Jewish group?

Did you watch them? Are you able to confirm that the word which they used when reading and reciting the creed which Jesus made his own is echad?

No, I am not interested in such topic.

 

[dak]

It can have plethora of possible translations, depending on the context. Generally, it means nearness, closeness.

In J 1:1 it is mostly translated as "with".

So then, you understand that "with" is not "within"? The rendering "with" regarding the definitions of pros, surely describes two Gods, not one. It is one God either directly in front of another God, as though face to face, or at the very least one God directly beside another God. This is not the Trinitarian idea of "persons", no, it is two Gods either facing each other or side by side in close proximity.

Greek #4314 πρός
1. forward to, i.e. toward
2. (genitive case) the side of, i.e. pertaining to
3. (dative case) by the side of, i.e. near to
4. (accusative case, usually) the place, time, occasion, or respect (which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated)

HELPS Word-studies
4314 prós (a preposition) – properly, motion towards to "interface with" (literally, moving toward a goal or destination).

4314 /prós ("towards, with") indicates "extension toward a goal, with implied interaction or reciprocity (L & N, 1, 84.18), with "presumed contact and reaction" (L & N, 1, 84.23). 4314 (prós) naturally suggests the cycle of initiation and response (L-N, 1,90.25, 90.33).

[4314 (prós) can mean "in view of," or "in light of, but never "against," except where the context indicates an active exchange (interface) done in opposition.]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4314: πρός

2. it is used of close proximity — the idea of direction, though not entirely lost, being more or less weakened;

a. answering to our at or by (German an); after verbs of fastening, adhering, moving (to): δεδέσθαι πρός τήν θύραν, Mark 11:4; προσκολλᾶσθαι, Mark 10:7 R G Tr (in marginal reading brackets); Ephesians 5:31 R G WH text; προσκόπτειν, Matthew 4:6; Luke 4:11; κεῖσθαι, equivalent to to be brought near to, Matthew 3:10; Luke 3:9 ((cf. 2 Macc. 4:33)); τιθέναι, Acts 3:2; (Acts 4:37 Tdf. (others παρά)); add, βεβλησθαι, Luke 16:20; τά πρός τήν θύραν, the forecourt (see θύρα, a.), Mark 2:2; εἶναι πρός τήν θάλασσαν (properly, toward the sea (A. V. by the sea)), Mark 4:1; θερμαίνεσθαι πρός τό φῶς, turned to the light (R. V. in the light), Mark 14:54; καθῆσθαι πρός τό φῶς, Luke 22:56; πρός τό μνημεῖον, John 20:11 Rec.; cf. Fritzsche on Mark, p. 201f
b. equivalent to (Latinapud) with, with the accusative of a person, after verbs of remaining, dwelling, tarrying, etc. (which require one to be conceived of as always turned toward one), cf. Fritzsche as above: after εἶναι, Matthew 13:56; Mark 6:3; Mark 9:19; Mark 14:49; Luke 9:41; John 1:1;

Strong's Greek: 4314. πρός (pros) -- to, towards, with, for

Thayer gives a large and extensive treatment of this word; so I copied only that portion which includes the usage in John 1:1, (the top portion of section 2b). Note what he says about the rendering "with". In that section, (b), he places in parenthesis, (which require one to be conceived of as always turned toward one), then gives a list which I have copied only up to where he includes John 1:1.

The statement he makes in parenthesis is no different than saying which require one to be conceived as always turned toward another. But for some strange reason he decides not to put it in that terminology, (Gee, I wonder why? perhaps he believed that one plus one plus one equals one?). Thayer tries his best to hide it but still yet he gives away the truth: we have two "ones" in the Trinitarian interpretation of John 1:1 and those two "ones" are two Gods because, although they are in extremely close proximity, (face to face or side by side), they are still separate entities or beings. There are several different understandings and readings, which are according to the scriptures, which would correct this error: but none of them bode well for the Trinity doctrine.

 

[HealthyShape]

So then, you understand that "with" is not "within"? The rendering "with" regarding the definitions of pros, surely describes two Gods, not one. It is one God either directly in front of another God, as though face to face, or at the very least one God directly beside another God.

Reading it in the manner of two Gods would contradict other verses saying there is only one God.

The "within" is expressed in this verse:
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
J 1:18

The trinitarian theology is the only one that makes sense when all the teachings of the New Testament about it are being accepted.

 

[dak]

Reading it in the manner of two Gods would contradict other verses saying there is only one God.

The "within" is expressed in this verse:
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
J 1:18

The trinitarian theology is the only one that makes sense when all the teachings of the New Testament about it are being accepted.

Typical: you must ignore the truth because "the Trinitarian theology is the only one that makes sense"....), but more bad news, regarding the second half of your statement that I just quoted: every other Trinitarian argument stems from either twisting the meaning of a verse or passage and-or is based on passages that are clearly in dispute and having been refuted.

 

[HealthyShape]

Typical: you must ignore the truth because "the Trinitarian theology is the only one that makes sense"....), but more bad news, regarding the second half of your statement that I just quoted: every other Trinitarian argument stems from either twisting the meaning of a verse or passage and-or is based on passages that are clearly in dispute and having been refuted.

The opposite is true. If somebody does not want to ignore the truth, they must accept trinitarianism. Because the Bible teaches:

a) there is only one true God
b) The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God
c) the person of the Father is distinct from the person of the Son and from the person of the Holy Spirit
d) but they are in such close unity that they are "one" or "receiving" from each other or even "proceeding" from each other

If you put it all together, you will get one God with three distinct persons. And this is rightly the orthodox Christian view.

 

[dak]

The opposite is true. If somebody does not want to ignore the truth, they must accept trinitarianism. Because the Bible teaches:

a) there is only one true God
b) The Father is God, The Son is God, The Holy Spirit is God
c) the person of the Father is distinct from the person of the Son and from the person of the Holy Spirit
d) but they are in such close unity that they are "one" or "receiving" from each other or even "proceeding" from each other

If you put it all together, you will get one God with three distinct persons. And this is rightly the orthodox Christian view.

Statement "a)" is the only fully true statement you've made. The rest are not true because, for one, they do not exist in the scripture, and for two, you are already shown to be ignoring and therefore distorting the true definition and meaning of pros in John 1:1 so as to uphold an RCC dogma you have accepted.

At this point you've already lost John 1:1 as an argument for your beliefs regarding the Trinity. Must we end up going through every so-called Trinity passage? (I believe there are about twenty to twenty-five main passages that online forum Trinitarians use to support their beliefs). That would not be a problem on my part; but obviously it would need its own thread so that we do not hijack this thread.

Anyway, nice chatting.

 

[David in NJ]

Here is the bottom line, no matter what a believing or an unbelieving Jew might say. Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, Son of the living God, must have the final word.

The Shema is the creed, his creed, about his God. His God is echad. There is no plurality in the God and Father of the lord Jesus Messiah. There is no plurality in the God of Israel, Yahweh.

YAHWEH is the preincarnate JESUS

YAHWEH gave the Shema, in addition to the TRUTH shown to Moses beginning with GENESIS to the Jewish people so that they would
know exactly who their ELOHIM is = THREE who are ECHAD

Genesis 1:26 - Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness = 3x Spoken

Exodus 3:13-15
Then Moses said to Elohim, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Yahweh Elohim of your fathers,
Elohenu of Abraham, Elohenu of Isaac, Elohenu of Jacob, has sent me to you = 3 Persons Echad Elohim
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

The Jewish people do not know who ELohim is for they murdered HIM when HE came to earth to Save them = Matt 21:33-46

The Jewish people do not know who Elohim is = John 4:21-24

The Jewish people do not know who Elohim is = Romans 10:1-4
1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

When the Jew or Gentile prays the Shema without CHRIST in their heart = they remain dead in trespasses and sins

 

[HealthyShape]

Statement "a)" is the only fully true statement you've made. The rest are not true because, for one, they do not exist in the scripture, and for two, you are already shown to be ignoring and therefore distorting the true definition and meaning of pros in John 1:1 so as to uphold an RCC dogma you have accepted.

At this point you've already lost John 1:1 as an argument for your beliefs regarding the Trinity. Must we end up going through every so-called Trinity passage? (I believe there are about twenty to twenty-five main passages that online forum Trinitarians use to support their beliefs). That would not be a problem on my part; but obviously it would need its own thread so that we do not hijack this thread.

Anyway, nice chatting. View attachment 72687

Of course I can prove all the points from the Bible, nothing easier. Trinitarianism is one of the most direct theological concepts agreed upon for thousands of years by all branches of Christianity.

It is not one of those obscure theological constructions "maybe, maybe not" like for example eschatology.

 

[Matthias]

So, let me get this straight - where is the "creed of Judaism" you are talking about so much? Where? In what Jewish group?

In every Jewish group.

No, I am not interested in such topic.

That’s okay. You said it all when you said (in post # 350) “I do not care if my form of monotheism is the monotheism of Israel or not.”

 

[HealthyShape]

In every Jewish group.

You are making no sense.

That’s okay. You said it all when you said (in post # 350) “I do not care if my form of monotheism is the monotheism of Israel or not.”

Exactly. These are Christian forums, not Jewish forums.

 

[Matthias]

YAHWEH is the preincarnate JESUS

YAHWEH gave the Shema, in addition to the TRUTH shown to Moses beginning with GENESIS to the Jewish people so that they would
know exactly who their ELOHIM is = THREE who are ECHAD

Genesis 1:26 - Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness = 3x Spoken

Exodus 3:13-15
Then Moses said to Elohim, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The Yahweh Elohim of your fathers,
Elohenu of Abraham, Elohenu of Isaac, Elohenu of Jacob, has sent me to you = 3 Persons Echad Elohim
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

The Jewish people do not know who ELohim is for they murdered HIM when HE came to earth to Save them = Matt 21:33-46

The Jewish people do not know who Elohim is = John 4:21-24

The Jewish people do not know who Elohim is = Romans 10:1-4
1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

When the Jew or Gentile prays the Shema without CHRIST in their heart = they remain dead in trespasses and sins

My response to what you’ve written is in post #340.

 

[JustMe]

Reading it in the manner of two Gods would contradict other verses saying there is only one God.

The "within" is expressed in this verse:
Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· μονογενὴς Θεὸς ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ Πατρὸς, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
J 1:18

The trinitarian theology is the only one that makes sense when all the teachings of the New Testament about it are being accepted.

Get to the unitarian, true monotheist heart of the matter, and not skirt around the Trinitarian frilly edges that look so cute.

The expression "in the bosom of the Father" is an idiom that represents a relationship of eternal love, closeness, and intimacy between a Father and a Son. In relation to John 1:18, it suggests that the spirit and mind of the created and born (Son) of God were profoundly connected and intertwined within the Spirit of his Father at conception, with the Father being the sole life-giver, the Almighty God.

The Greek transliterated word "kolphon" literally refers to the chest or breast, the hollow space between the arms, which serves as a place that can hold someone and is near the heart, emphasizing closeness and emotional intimacy. This idiom highlights the unique, everlasting bond between the Father and the Son, affirming Jesus' role as the perfect revealer and interpreter of the Father, who is the only true God.

For John 1:18 to be reasonably understood, there is only one person, echad, numerical cardinal one, who is the true God of genuine monotheism, who is only the Father alone, and not and never his Son as his equal in this sense. The Son is the sinless human person and being, the face and expression of God for all mankind

 

[HealthyShape]

Get to the unitarian, true monotheist heart of the matter, and not skirt around the Trinitarian frilly edges that look so cute.

The expression "in the bosom of the Father" is an idiom that represents a relationship of eternal love, closeness, and intimacy between a Father and a Son. In relation to John 1:18, it suggests that the spirit and mind of the created and born (Son) of God were profoundly connected and intertwined within the Spirit of his Father at conception, with the Father being the sole life-giver, the Almighty God.

The Greek transliterated word "kolphon" literally refers to the chest or breast, the hollow space between the arms, which serves as a place that can hold someone and is near the heart, emphasizing closeness and emotional intimacy. This idiom highlights the unique, everlasting bond between the Father and the Son, affirming Jesus' role as the perfect revealer and interpreter of the Father, who is the only true God.

For John 1:18 to be reasonably understood, there is only one person, echad, numerical cardinal one, who is the true God of genuine monotheism, who is only the Father alone, and not and never his Son as his equal in this sense. The Son is the sinless human person and being, the face and expression of God for all mankind

The verse says "monogenés", i.e. certainly not "created".

The transliterated word is kolpon, without "h". And yes, it refers to special, most extreme closeness and intimacy. Jesus, the eternal Logos, came from the most close relation with His Father. NIV tries to make it clear in this way:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

 

[JustMe]

The verse says "monogenés", i.e. certainly not "created".

The transliterated word is kolpon, without "h". And yes, it refers to special, most extreme closeness and intimacy. Jesus, the eternal Logos, came from the most close relation with His Father. NIV tries to make it clear in this way:

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

The Greek word monogenés (μονογενής) most certainly refers to a creation of even a human being.

It refers to a uniquely begotten human being of a singular kind. It describes a human created through a distinct process of fertilization of a human egg. It does not, and never has, meant a fictional or flawed concept of the Father God transforming Himself into a human being, complete with a human body He provided for Himself, which is the sacred term incarnation upheld by strict trinitarians.

Indeed, it signifies "only one of its kind," "unique," or a "one and only form of human creation." In the New Testament, it is commonly used to describe Jesus Christ as the "only begotten Son," or more precisely, the "one and only Son" of God, highlighting His unique creation, birth, and exclusive relationship with the Father, which clearly implies a unique type of physical begetting, of conception and fertilization for this to take place.

Also, 'Logos' is not a person.....unless one practices circular logic, and other various forms of word manipulation to enforce an agenda.

 

[Matthias]

You are making no sense.

I’m not in your league.

Exactly. These are Christian forums, not Jewish forums.

Having no interest in the monotheism of Israel is having no interest in the God of Israel.

 

[Matthias]

These are Christian forums, not Jewish forums.

I don’t have posting privileges in “Christians Only” forums.

 

[David in NJ]

My response to what you’ve written is in post #340.

Post 340 is false advertising

This is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = any divergence from it is a 'twist' = make straight the paths of the LORD

YAHWEH is the preincarnate JESUS = John 6:36/John 5:37 "no one has seen the FATHER / nor heard His Voice at any time"

YAHWEH, IAM, gave the Shema, in addition to the TRUTH shown to Moses beginning with GENESIS to the Jewish people so that they would
know exactly who their ELOHIM is = THREE who are ECHAD

Genesis 1:26 - Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness = 3x Spoken

Exodus 3:13-15
Then Moses said to Elohim, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Yahweh Elohim of your fathers,
Elohenu of Abraham, Elohenu of Isaac, Elohenu of Jacob, has sent me to you = 3 Persons Echad Elohim
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

The Same Name given to us in the Gospel and Revelation = FATHER/SON/HOLY SPIRIT = LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

 

[Matthias]

Post 340 is false advertising

This is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE = any divergence from it is a 'twist' = make straight the paths of the LORD

YAHWEH is the preincarnate JESUS

YAHWEH, IAM, gave the Shema, in addition to the TRUTH shown to Moses beginning with GENESIS to the Jewish people so that they would
know exactly who their ELOHIM is = THREE who are ECHAD

Genesis 1:26 - Let US make man in OUR image according to OUR likeness = 3x Spoken

Exodus 3:13-15
Then Moses said to Elohim, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The Elohim of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

And Elohim said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ” Moreover Elohim said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel:
‘The Yahweh Elohim of your fathers,
Elohenu of Abraham, Elohenu of Isaac, Elohenu of Jacob, has sent me to you = 3 Persons Echad Elohim
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

The Same Name given to us in the Gospel and Revelation!!!

Post #340 isn’t false advertising. The quote from NIDNTT (a trinitarian source) is the documentation of who the one God is in scripture.