Apokatastasis in the early church

[David in NJ]

Church Fathers Scripture Index

too tired to copy and paste ouchhhh shoulderrs

keep reading the posts until you reach todays = the info is cummalitive

ALWAYS go by what JESUS says is Truth = ALWAYS

 

[Wick Stick]

Church Fathers Scripture Index

too tired to copy and paste ouchhhh shoulderrs

Making a reference to Job is not the same thing as treating the book as prophecy.

The difference is fulfillment. If something has no fulfillment, then it's not being treated as prophecy.

 

[St. SteVen]

Making a reference to Job is not the same thing as treating the book as prophecy.

Agreed.

The difference is fulfillment. If something has no fulfillment, then it's not being treated as prophecy.

The other issue is that some prophecies seem to acquired rather than intended. (by the Prophet)
Probably the case with Job.

Were messianic prophecies acquired, rather than intended? (in the original texts)​

Of what value is the fulfillment of OT prophecy? - since the prophecies were acquired rather than intended​

 

[David in NJ]

Making a reference to Job is not the same thing as treating the book as prophecy.

The difference is fulfillment. If something has no fulfillment, then it's not being treated as prophecy.

the Holy Spirit says otherwise
the prophecy spoken by the Holy Spirit thru Job's suffering was fulfilled in the Suffering of Christ = as the Scripture Declares

THREE Faithful witnesses testify against your unbelief = the LORD, Job and James

the LORD also warns you of this mistake: "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel"

@St. SteVen

 

[amigo de christo]

keep reading the posts until you reach todays = the info is cummalitive

ALWAYS go by what JESUS says is Truth = ALWAYS

yet many go by what the so called church fathers said .
NOT by what was left to us IN THE BIBLE .
THEY will not make it on that path .
a respector of persons is not the path of a sheep . ITS TO GOD and HIS CHRIST that we owe all
and ought rather to have learned HIS WORDS and later the real apostels words in that bible
for our own selves very well .
People can ooh and aww all day over these other writings as they always seem to do .
AND always , AS USUAL some new book is dug up , or some new scroll
, some something , AND IT DARN SURE WILL and does contradict the very bible .
You know what i smell on their fingers
LETS jus say its dung . and it is no meat for the sheep .
I AM GONNA stay , BY grace i have long purposed to stay IN THAT BIBLE .
AND IT WILL BE BY THAT BOOK that i shall test every man , woman and child
Even angels and talking donkeys against . AND IF a one of them contradicts that book
and offer up a new revelation , GUESS WHO I WONT BE HEEDING . THEM . MY MIND IS LIKE SOLID FLINT
that i shall STAY IN that BIBLE and test anything and any word , any book or person or angel
AGAINST IT . THEMS GODS WORDS . AND HE IS TRUTH , HIS WORDS are T RUTH
and them words are meat for our soul my friend . they can keep the doo doo , I KEEP THE TRUTH and shall sell her not .

 

[amigo de christo]

the Holy Spirit says otherwise
the prophecy spoken by the Holy Spirit thru Job's suffering was fulfilled in the Suffering of Christ = as the Scripture Declares

THREE Faithful witnesses testify against your unbelief

the LORD also warns you of this mistake: "straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel"

@St. SteVen

Every word in that holy book is meat for our soul .
as i wrote afore and above folks can keep t he doo doo
I shall KEEP the TRUTH and sell her not .
And i sure smell lots of dung on lots of fingers that have done the opposite .

 

[amigo de christo]

keep reading the posts until you reach todays = the info is cummalitive

ALWAYS go by what JESUS says is Truth = ALWAYS

many love what man has to say
and those many do not love rather what GOD had to say IN that bible
and did so through men recorded IN that bible .
they treat the words of GOD as though they stink .
but its dung on their fingers
FOR EVERY WORD OF GOD , INSPIRED BY GOD , IS TRUTH and it is MEAT for the sheep .
MY MIND FULLY MADE UP AND PERSAUDED that no man gonna pry me from that BIBLE .
And on the day they do , it will be because it was being pulled from my cold dead fingers .
THEY can call that bibolary or any other thing they desire .
I CALL IT TRUTH and I SAY EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH and that they can keep the rest .
This sheep has made my mind up , ITS GOD , ITS CHRIST , ITS HIS WORDS FOR ME .

 

[Wick Stick]

the Holy Spirit says otherwise

Yikes... you continue to make statements I would avoid at just about any cost.

I'm gonna do us both a favor and add you to my Ignored list.

 

[amigo de christo]

Yikes... you continue to make statements I would avoid at just about any cost.

I'm gonna do us both a favor and add you to my Ignored list.

Before you add me to yours , IF you have not already , go and read my responses to david . and let me know
what you think about it .

 

[St. SteVen]

Before you add me to yours...

Too late. - LOL

 

[David in NJ]

Yikes... you continue to make statements I would avoid at just about any cost.

I'm gonna do us both a favor and add you to my Ignored list.

Of course you do, for you listen to the spirit of error whom you are obeying in this instance.

Placing me on ignore is your free choice but you will not benefit from it.

God has spoken and it is your choice whether to obey Christ or not = Matt 4:4

 

[David in NJ]

many love what man has to say
and those many do not love rather what GOD had to say IN that bible
and did so through men recorded IN that bible .
they treat the words of GOD as though they stink .
but its dung on their fingers
FOR EVERY WORD OF GOD , INSPIRED BY GOD , IS TRUTH and it is MEAT for the sheep .
MY MIND FULLY MADE UP AND PERSAUDED that no man gonna pry me from that BIBLE .
And on the day they do , it will be because it was being pulled from my cold dead fingers .
THEY can call that bibolary or any other thing they desire .
I CALL IT TRUTH and I SAY EVERY WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH and that they can keep the rest .
This sheep has made my mind up , ITS GOD , ITS CHRIST , ITS HIS WORDS FOR ME .

THREE Judgments Await
a.) Moses will Judge the Jews by the Law = John 5:45
b.) CHRIST will separate the goats from His Sheep = Matthew 25:32
d.) Great White Throne Judgment for all after the 1,000 Year Reign of CHRIST = Revelation 20:7-15

 

[marks]

the Holy Spirit says otherwise
the prophecy spoken by the Holy Spirit thru Job's suffering was fulfilled in the Suffering of Christ = as the Scripture Declares

No, you say this, the Bible does not say this. Your claim to speak for the Holy Spirit as you make false statements shows you to be a false prophet, saying things that God does not say.

Placing you on ignore is meant to help you, in that you may not become triggered to make such outlandish claims at the risk of the health of your soul.

In your zeal to show your assertions, you misattributed a quote, a small mistake anyone can make, but you have built your small error into a monolith of error, in your refusal to acknowledge even this small small slip. To save yourself the bad taste of the gnat you've swallowed the camel. It seems the only one that cannot see this is you.

Please, take a step back from it all, and consider whether this may be true. You could do so much better than this!

Much love!

 

[marks]

Yikes... you continue to make statements I would avoid at just about any cost.

I'm gonna do us both a favor and add you to my Ignored list.

It's the right answer. Sad, yet true, I think.

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

No, you say this, the Bible does not say this. Your claim to speak for the Holy Spirit as you make false statements shows you to be a false prophet, saying things that God does not say.

Placing you on ignore is meant to help you, in that you may not become triggered to make such outlandish claims at the risk of the health of your soul.

In your zeal to show your assertions, you misattributed a quote, a small mistake anyone can make, but you have built your small error into a monolith of error, in your refusal to acknowledge even this small small slip. To save yourself the bad taste of the gnat you've swallowed the camel. It seems the only one that cannot see this is you.

Please, take a step back from it all, and consider whether this may be true. You could do so much better than this!

Much love!

Dear brother marks,
"take a step back" and review = Shalom

#1 - i am not "adding to God's words" and never will
#2 - neither have i made a "thus saith the Lord" declaration that the OT Prophets, JESUS, the Apostles did not SAY FIRST

#3 - You fail to SEE and Love = 2 Peter 1:19-21

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

Abel , Noah and Job are "Holy men of God that were moved by the Holy Spirit" as they spoke to one another in their generation.

Believe the LORD Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit who Said so = Matt 23:31-36 , Matthew 24:36-39 , James 5:7-12

 

[Wick Stick]

Placing you on ignore is meant to help you, in that you may not become triggered to make such outlandish claims at the risk of the health of your soul.

That was precisely what I was thinking. You may have to add 'mind-reader' to your profile.

 

[David in NJ]

No, you say this, the Bible does not say this. Your claim to speak for the Holy Spirit as you make false statements shows you to be a false prophet, saying things that God does not say.

Placing you on ignore is meant to help you, in that you may not become triggered to make such outlandish claims at the risk of the health of your soul.

In your zeal to show your assertions, you misattributed a quote, a small mistake anyone can make, but you have built your small error into a monolith of error, in your refusal to acknowledge even this small small slip. To save yourself the bad taste of the gnat you've swallowed the camel. It seems the only one that cannot see this is you.

Please, take a step back from it all, and consider whether this may be true. You could do so much better than this!

Much love!

marks,
i appreciate your concern and am asking that you carefully review Post 475 and all the Scriptures that Speak to us Truth

Do a check list:
A.) Christ declares Abel with the prophets = Matt 23:31-36

B.) Job suffers by the Will of God just as JESUS did and Job, by the holy Spirit, uttered the same words of Isaiah and the LORD (remember they do not need to be exact) just as the Apostle Paul proved in his writings as well as the writer of Hebrews.

C.) James, by the holy Spirit, included Job with the prophets = James 5:7-12

D.) Apostle Peter, by the Holy Spirit, includes every man that was "moved by the Holy Spirit" to either speak or direct God's Truth.

E.) God includes with the prophet Daniel, Noah and Job = God was very very very SPECIFIC in doing so as the 3 Men are Prophetic

 

[Wick Stick]

Before you add me to yours , IF you have not already , go and read my responses to david . and let me know
what you think about it .

I did put you there in the past. I don't really remember why... it may just be that I find your writing style hard to parse, visually.

Anyway, I'm seeing this because I couldn't figure out what one of the comments meant and clicked "unhide." I went back and read a few of your posts, and your point seems to be that Christians should treat each other well. Did I "get it?"

Tell you what... UNIGNORED

 

[marks]

marks,
i appreciate your concern and am asking that you carefully review Post 475 and all the Scriptures that Speak to us Truth

Do a check list:
A.) Christ declares Abel with the prophets = Matt 23:31-36

B.) Job suffers by the Will of God just as JESUS did and Job, by the holy Spirit, uttered the same words of Isaiah and the LORD (remember they do not need to be exact) just as the Apostle Paul proved in his writings as well as the writer of Hebrews.

C.) James, by the holy Spirit, included Job with the prophets = James 5:7-12

D.) Apostle Peter, by the Holy Spirit, includes every man that was "moved by the Holy Spirit" to either speak or direct God's Truth.

E.) God includes with the prophet Daniel, Noah and Job = God was very very very SPECIFIC in doing so as the 3 Men are Prophetic

You are simply repeating your false equivalencies.

I have an apple, a piece of bread, and a chunk of cheese. That doesn't mean bread is an apple, or that an apple is cheese.

This began when I saw where you had written that Job had said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?, and I replied with the correct verse written by David in the Psalms.

After that you posted a number of passages from Job that you picked out words here and there to associate them with events pertaining to Jesus, in order to claim Job to be a prophet, apparently to obscure that you had mistakenly named Job for your quote from David.

And since then you've continued to address this secondary point of whether Job was a prophet, seemingly because you are not willing to acknowledge the mistaken attribution.

This is really extreme! I can't think of anyone I've seen to pound this much pavement in order to avoid one tiny little step back.

A.) Christ declares Abel with the prophets = Matt 23:31-36

Personally I prefer to post the passage, and underline the place that says what I'm claiming. I've so often found that those who just post a reference do so contrary to what the passage itself says. You post a reference, but it doesn't support your claim.

Matthew 23:31-39 KJV
31) Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32) Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34) Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35) That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Not all who were killed were prophets.

"all the righteous blood shed upon the earth", Abel is included in these.

This passage does not declare Abel a prophet.

B.) Job suffers by the Will of God just as JESUS did and Job, by the holy Spirit, uttered the same words of Isaiah and the LORD (remember they do not need to be exact) just as the Apostle Paul proved in his writings as well as the writer of Hebrews.

Yes, Job suffered, but Job did not say the quote you gave, David did.

I don't know why you cannot bring yourself to admit this and move on, instead to continue to pile up more and more misinformation.

As for the exactitude of Paul's quotations, I'd remind you that most our translations are from the Masoretic MS, while the NT writers often quoted from the LXX. Saying, "they didn't have to be saying the same thing to be saying the same thing", you are just giving yourself license to to interpret however you will. I suppose we are seeing the results of that.

C.) James, by the holy Spirit, included Job with the prophets = James 5:7-12

Another of those references that don't say what you assert.

James 5:7-11 KJV
7) Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8) Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9) Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10) Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11) Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

We love eating a lemon cake, zesty, tangy! We enjoy lemonaide, refreshing, tangy lemonaide!

But lemon cake is not lemonaide.

Take for example the prophets, an example of affliction and patience. You've heard the patience of Job, the Lord is merciful!

Two examples of patience, the prophets, and Job. And no, this does not show Job a prophet.

None of your passages show Job to be a prophet, and that's not even what this is about.

You mistakenly attributed a quote from David to Job.

Mountains from molehills!

It's healthy to be able to admit mistakes, and very unhealthy to not be able to.

And I just don't know what else I can say to you, only that I pray for you!

Much love!

 

[David in NJ]

You are simply repeating your false equivalencies.

I have an apple, a piece of bread, and a chunk of cheese. That doesn't mean bread is an apple, or that an apple is cheese.

This began when I saw where you had written that Job had said, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?, and I replied with the correct verse written by David in the Psalms.

After that you posted a number of passages from Job that you picked out words here and there to associate them with events pertaining to Jesus, in order to claim Job to be a prophet, apparently to obscure that you had mistakenly named Job for your quote from David.

And since then you've continued to address this secondary point of whether Job was a prophet, seemingly because you are not willing to acknowledge the mistaken attribution.

SEE, i appreciate your analysis as it reveals how you are assessing scripture.

Take time and carefully listen and review.

#1 - i did not mistake David's quote with Job's quote = They are Unique unto God who spoke thru Job and David.

#2 - Job lived approximately after the sons of Jacob but before Moses - as such God spoke thru Job what HE desired for both then/at His time, as well as to us/Today, for the End Time leading up to the Second Coming of CHRIST = James 5:7-12

#3 - Job lived before the Mosaic Law - therefore God decided to begin a Prophetic Utterance thru Job of the Sufferings of Christ.

#4 - Job spoke and experienced some of the sufferings of Christ, in his generation, as is CLEAR as DAY in Job ch16 and more!!!
OBVIOUSLY Job could not suffer exactly as Christ because Job was not CHRIST
Job "shared in the sufferings of Christ" = 1 Peter 1:10-12

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

#5 - i only touched on just one chapter in Job, as there is more prophecy in Job = "I know my Redeemer LIVES"

#6 - the LORD included Abel with the prophets = Abel was a prophet by FAITH & OBEDIENCE, not by utterance = Matt 23:31-35

“Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets.
The FIRST prophet to be murdered was Abel = JESUS Said so = "beginning with the blood of Abel"
Your argument against Abel is voided by the LORD's direct and specific wording = beginning with the blood of Abel
Abel was not sent to Israel as they did not exist = another mistake of your theology as there were prophets BEFORE Moses/Israel
These Holy men of God lived and suffered a Prophetic life of the sufferings of Christ

#7 - the LORD groups together THREE Holy men = Noah, Daniel, Job as a PROPHESY

#8 - End Time Prophecy from 3 Holy men who spoke/walked/lived by the Holy Spirit
a.) JESUS Speaks of this PROPHECY by directing us to NOAH for the Second Coming = Matt ch24
b.) JESUS Speaks of this PROPHECY by directing us to Daniel and the AoD = Matt ch24
c.) James speaks of this PROPHECY by directing us to Job = James 5:7-12

It's healthy to be able to admit mistakes, and very unhealthy to not be able to.

i am hoping that you will allow the Holy Spirit to bring health to you marks

Since you currently are falsely judging me, i have found this for you = hoping that you get HEALTHY

The book of Job is unique, but it traces a familiar pattern of experience that pulsates throughout redemptive history. It is a story shared by characters such as Joseph and David. It is the story of a man who is favored by God, is cast down into the depths of suffering, and is then raised up and vindicated. It is the story of Christ’s experience, foretold through typology, and fulfilled when the Son of God suffered the depths of humiliation before He was given the name above every name (Phil. 2:5–9). Peter tells us that the message of the Old Testament prophets, given by the Spirit of Christ Himself, is all about “the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories” (1 Peter 1:10–11). This pattern of suffering leading to glory, which anticipates the work of Christ, is the essence of Job’s story.

Job is introduced to us without genealogy, a unique feature that he shares with Melchizedek, and a feature that the writer of Hebrews took as prima facie evidence of typology (Heb. 7:1–3). Job is described as “blameless and upright” and “greatest of all the people of the east” (Job 1:1, 3). God further praises him by saying that “there is none like him on the earth” (1:8; 2:3). Job was not sinless, of course, but we are meant to see him in the midst of his sufferings as what God declares him to be—blameless and upright. A “blameless” man suffering great hardship will be an intolerable thought to Job’s friends but a clue to Job’s typological role. It points to the plan of salvation, which required a truly blameless man to be tested by suffering.

The book quickly flashes to the throne room of heaven, where we find God calling Satan to give account of himself. Satan brags that he has been wandering the earth at will (1:7). How will God respond to Satan’s work in the world and his boastful claim of autonomy? How will God answer the adversary who wanders the earth and sheds his evil influence? This is the key question of the book, to which God responds, “Have you considered my servant Job?” God’s response to the earth-wandering adversary will come in the form of a blameless man who endures great suffering and is exalted at last. It is a foretaste of the gospel, in which one righteous man is bruised but the adversary is crushed (Gen. 3:15).

God’s response to Satan invites the challenge to test Job’s faith through hardship. What unfolds is no ordinary story about an average believer’s trusting the Lord through difficult times. What unfolds is the story of the greatest and most upright man on earth losing everything but his life in a single day. There is nothing ordinary about this story. Job touched the extreme outer limits of human experience at both ends of the spectrum, from being the greatest and most pious man on earth to becoming unrecognizable to his friends (Job 2:12). So great a condescension anticipates One even greater, beyond the limits of human experience, from having “equality with God” to the “death on a cross” (Phil. 2:6–8).