Christ has already returned ?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

PeterAndroz

Active Member
May 15, 2026
459
104
43
42
Mt Compass Adelaide
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Hmmm, how interesting.
When did the following occur ?

When Matt 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When did 2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
 

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Hmmm, how interesting.
When did the following occur ?

When Matt 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When did 2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
As I understand Preterism, they would say those events were fulfilled in the past of fulfilled spiritually -
Mat 24:21 ... fulfilled Jerusalem 70AD
1 Thes 4:17 ... our Christian life: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
2 Thes 2:8 ... the conquering of pagan Rome by the Gospel

I am not a preterist, or even a partial preterist, but I would say 1 Thes 4:17 is a spiritual event ... I believe in a literal rapture, but aspects of being "caught up" are spiritual ... the idea of millions of bodies suddenly floating up into the air is a movie fantasy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PeterAndroz

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
As I understand Preterism, they would say those events were fulfilled in the past of fulfilled spiritually -
Mat 24:21 ... fulfilled Jerusalem 70AD
1 Thes 4:17 ... our Christian life: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
2 Thes 2:8 ... the conquering of pagan Rome by the Gospel

I am not a preterist, or even a partial preterist, but I would say 1 Thes 4:17 is a spiritual event ... I believe in a literal rapture, but aspects of being "caught up" are spiritual ... the idea of millions of bodies suddenly floating up into the air is a movie fantasy.


I’m someone who believes Jesus was seen physically, not spiritually or symbolically. Scripture says plainly, “He presented Himself alive… being seen by them” (Acts 1:3). That physical appearing matters, because it anchors everything in real fulfillment, not abstraction.

My belief goes against the core of their system because I hold to fulfillment — that Jesus kept His word exactly as He said He would. He was not a liar. He told His disciples, “Some standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). I take Him at His word.

I believe He gathered the Bride of Christ in that day and age, just as He promised: “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). The apostles understood this timing, saying they were living in “the ends of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11).


@markalan thank you for bringing those points up.

When it comes down to it all us are gonna die and go be judged by God I believe immediately upon death. that’s my view, we are all gonna go meet God one day that’s for sure.
 
Last edited:

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
He told His disciples, “Some standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). I take Him at His word.

I believe He gathered the Bride of Christ in that day and age, just as He promised: “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). The apostles understood this timing, saying they were living in “the ends of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11).
So it sounds as if you believe Jesus' second coming was in the days of the apostles ... is that correct?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
So it sounds as if you believe Jesus' second coming was in the days of the apostles ... is that correct?
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t hold to the idea that Jesus “came spiritually” in some vague or invisible sense. I believe He came just as He promised, and He was seen by the faithful who were watching, waiting, and looking, exactly like Hebrews describes. “To those who eagerly waited for Him, He appeared a second time…” (Hebrews 9:28).

The expectation today is very different. Most people imagine some massive, world‑shaking, cinematic event—almost like one of those Marvel movie scenes where the sky splits open and the whole planet watches at once. But Scripture never described it that way. Jesus spoke of a coming that their generation would witness (Matthew 24:34), and the apostles told them to be watchful because they would see it (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17, Hebrews 10:37).

For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.
 

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.


Do you see Paul mentioning the return of Jesus Christ as a future event in his last epistles to Timothy & Titus?

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Do you see Paul mentioning the return of Jesus Christ as a future event in his last epistles to Timothy & Titus?

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13)

Hold up — do you accept anything I said earlier? If not, then bringing this up as though it overturns my point doesn’t really mean anything.
 

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Hold up — do you accept anything I said earlier? If not, then bringing this up as though it overturns my point doesn’t really mean anything.

From what you said earlier, I have the impression you believe Jesus returned in the days of the apostles ... and I am trying to see how that fits with Paul's comments in his last epistles.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
and I am trying to see how that fits with Paul's comments in his last epistles.

Alright, that’s on you then. I can’t help if you’ve already made up your mind. No one gets to dictate another person’s faith — that belongs to you alone. Even God doesn’t force anyone to believe. He gives people the freedom to trust Him or to reject Him.

Scripture says, ‘Choose you this day whom ye will serve’ (Joshua 24:15). And again, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). Faith is always a choice, never something imposed.


@markalan - Yes, I do believe Jesus returned. I’m not joking when I say that. I have faith that He fulfilled His promise just like He said He would.

People still meet Jesus in this life, and God still changes hearts. Scripture says, ‘Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you’ (James 4:8). And Jesus said, ‘If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him’ (Revelation 3:20).

It’s all still amazing. God is still working, still calling, and still transforming lives.
 
Last edited:

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Alright, that’s on you then. I can’t help if you’ve already made up your mind. No one gets to dictate another person’s faith — that belongs to you alone. Even God doesn’t force anyone to believe. He gives people the freedom to trust Him or to reject Him.

Scripture says, ‘Choose you this day whom ye will serve’ (Joshua 24:15). And again, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). Faith is always a choice, never something imposed.


@markalan - Yes, I do believe Jesus returned. I’m not joking when I say that. I have faith that He fulfilled His promise just like He said He would.

People still meet Jesus in this life, and God still changes hearts. Scripture says, ‘Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you’ (James 4:8). And Jesus said, ‘If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him’ (Revelation 3:20).

It’s all still amazing. God is still working, still calling, and still transforming lives.
One of the reasons for my participation in a variety of forums is not to change minds, but to find out what people believe and why they believe it. I thank you for sharing some of what you believe ... I would like to go further but I have the impression you would not welcome my questions. That's ok.

I fully agree with your concluding remarks which are the most important aspect of our faith.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
One of the reasons for my participation in a variety of forums is not to change minds, but to find out what people believe and why they believe it. I thank you for sharing some of what you believe ... I would like to go further but I have the impression you would not welcome my questions. That's ok.

I fully agree with your concluding remarks which are the most important aspect of our faith.
No problem. People really do have to stop and question things for themselves, because at the end of the day it isn’t about me answering for anyone. Scripture constantly calls people to examine what they believe: “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

A lot of the tension people feel comes from the topics surrounding the end of the age, the removal of Satan, and the white throne judgment — events that Scripture places within the framework of the first‑century generation. Jesus said plainly, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34). John also wrote to his audience about the judgment that was “about to” occur (Revelation 1:1, 3).

It’s understandable that people are interested in these things. But it still requires each person to look at their Bible, compare Scripture with Scripture, and seek understanding by the Spirit and not the flesh. Paul warned that “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Many desire Jesus to come back simply because they hate it here or want an escape, but Jesus never told us to watch for those events. He told them — His first‑century disciples — “When you see these things…” (Luke 21:20–22). Their context matters.

All the best.
 

markalan

Member
May 31, 2021
78
75
18
80
Perth
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
No problem. People really do have to stop and question things for themselves, because at the end of the day it isn’t about me answering for anyone. Scripture constantly calls people to examine what they believe: “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

A lot of the tension people feel comes from the topics surrounding the end of the age, the removal of Satan, and the white throne judgment — events that Scripture places within the framework of the first‑century generation. Jesus said plainly, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34). John also wrote to his audience about the judgment that was “about to” occur (Revelation 1:1, 3).

It’s understandable that people are interested in these things. But it still requires each person to look at their Bible, compare Scripture with Scripture, and seek understanding by the Spirit and not the flesh. Paul warned that “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Many desire Jesus to come back simply because they hate it here or want an escape, but Jesus never told us to watch for those events. He told them — His first‑century disciples — “When you see these things…” (Luke 21:20–22). Their context matters.

All the best.
You have quoted Scripture in your posts ... which is good. We all need to base our beliefs firmly on Scripture.

However, we should not assume that those with a different view have not also carefully considered the same Scriptural references.

We grow in understanding when we learn to integrate all the Bible says on a topic. For instance, compare Rev 1:3 with Rev 1:19.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,755
1,797
113
71
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t hold to the idea that Jesus “came spiritually” in some vague or invisible sense. I believe He came just as He promised, and He was seen by the faithful who were watching, waiting, and looking, exactly like Hebrews describes. “To those who eagerly waited for Him, He appeared a second time…” (Hebrews 9:28).

The expectation today is very different. Most people imagine some massive, world‑shaking, cinematic event—almost like one of those Marvel movie scenes where the sky splits open and the whole planet watches at once. But Scripture never described it that way. Jesus spoke of a coming that their generation would witness (Matthew 24:34), and the apostles told them to be watchful because they would see it (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17, Hebrews 10:37).

For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.
This is mind numbing for some:

Act 1:6-11 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (7) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (9) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, (11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
You have quoted Scripture in your posts ... which is good. We all need to base our beliefs firmly on Scripture.

However, we should not assume that those with a different view have not also carefully considered the same Scriptural references.

We grow in understanding when we learn to integrate all the Bible says on a topic. For instance, compare Rev 1:3 with Rev 1:19.

But I don’t know if they have or not. I don’t do it for my own benefit or theirs. I’m happy just to provide.

I haven’t sat down and read revelation in idk two years, now.

I know the arguments but alas everyone must choose for themselves.
 

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
This is mind numbing for some:

Act 1:6-11 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (7) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (9) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, (11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Then you have Peter proclaiming in Acts 2 that they were already living in the last days, which is fascinating. When the Spirit was poured out, Peter said, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, I will pour out My Spirit…’” (Acts 2:16–17). He wasn’t pointing thousands of years ahead — he was saying it was happening right then.

I just don’t have any problems with this anymore. If Yahavah wanted to confront me about trusting Jesus’ words — especially about His return — He would. Jesus Himself said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35). So if I were rejecting something true, He knows how to deal with His own. But that hasn’t been an issue.

Many people doubt, and honestly, some leaders have a lot to lose. If someone runs a church system, they need people to keep coming, keep giving, keep expecting a future event. Paul warned that some teach “for dishonest gain” (Titus 1:11), and Peter said false teachers would “exploit you with deceptive words” (2 Peter 2:3).

If Jesus already returned, that collapses the entire modern end‑times industry. You can’t build fear‑based sermons, conferences, or prophetic hype if the main event already happened.

And on top of that, if you have people who believe Jesus’ Kingdom is of this world, and that He needs to come back to set up a new earthly nation with Himself ruling from a physical throne — that opens the door to a whole pile of extra jargon and traditions Jesus never taught. He said plainly, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). That alone dismantles the idea of a future geopolitical kingdom.
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,755
1,797
113
71
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
And on top of that, if you have people who believe Jesus’ Kingdom is of this world, and that He needs to come back to set up a new earthly nation with Himself ruling from a physical throne — that opens the door to a whole pile of extra jargon and traditions Jesus never taught. He said plainly, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). That alone dismantles the idea of a future geopolitical kingdom.
That is textbook equivocation, with non sequitur and strawman fallacies following.

It is an error to treat “not of this world” as if it meant: “not located on earth,” “not involving geography,” “not having any physical manifestation.”
In John 18:36, kosmos is used ethically, not geographically. Jesus is saying:
  • His kingdom’s origin is not from this world system,
  • not that its location cannot be on earth.
This is the same way Jesus says believers are “not of the world” (John 17:14–16) while still very much living in the world, so the argument trades on two different meanings of “world”.

Then there is this Non Sequitur fallacy:

Even if one did grant the premise, the conclusion still wouldn’t follow.
The argument is:
  1. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world.
  2. Therefore, there cannot be a future earthly kingdom.
This is a non sequitur because the conclusion does not logically follow from the premise. A kingdom can be:
  • from God (origin)
  • on earth (location)
The Bible repeatedly affirms this pattern:
  • The New Jerusalem “comes down out of heaven” (Rev 21:2).
  • The authority of the Son of Man is “given” to Him (Dan 7:14).
  • The millennial reign is on earth (Rev 20:4–6).
Origin ≠ location.

Next is the Strawman fallacy:

The argument also misrepresents the opposing view by implying: “People who believe in a future earthly kingdom think Jesus’ kingdom is worldly, political, or sourced from human power.” No premillennialist believes that. The kingdom is from God, even if it is on earth.

That is a strawman.
 
  • Love
Reactions: Anchorite

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
That is textbook equivocation, with non sequitur and strawman fallacies following.

It is an error to treat “not of this world” as if it meant: “not located on earth,” “not involving geography,” “not having any physical manifestation.”
In John 18:36, kosmos is used ethically, not geographically. Jesus is saying:
  • His kingdom’s origin is not from this world system,
  • not that its location cannot be on earth.
This is the same way Jesus says believers are “not of the world” (John 17:14–16) while still very much living in the world, so the argument trades on two different meanings of “world”.

Then there is this Non Sequitur fallacy:

Even if one did grant the premise, the conclusion still wouldn’t follow.
The argument is:
  1. Jesus said His kingdom is not of this world.
  2. Therefore, there cannot be a future earthly kingdom.
This is a non sequitur because the conclusion does not logically follow from the premise. A kingdom can be:
  • from God (origin)
  • on earth (location)
The Bible repeatedly affirms this pattern:
  • The New Jerusalem “comes down out of heaven” (Rev 21:2).
  • The authority of the Son of Man is “given” to Him (Dan 7:14).
  • The millennial reign is on earth (Rev 20:4–6).
Origin ≠ location.

Next is the Strawman fallacy:

The argument also misrepresents the opposing view by implying: “People who believe in a future earthly kingdom think Jesus’ kingdom is worldly, political, or sourced from human power.” No premillennialist believes that. The kingdom is from God, even if it is on earth.

That is a strawman.


You’re building an argument on category mistakes and then defending conclusions the text itself won’t support.

1. The equivocation on “world” (kosmos). You insist Jesus meant “world system,” but then use that to smuggle in a future geopolitical kingdom. Yet Jesus’ own contrast is between earthly power and heavenly authority, not “origin vs. location.”

Jesus explicitly defines His meaning in the same breath:

“If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight…” — John 18:36
That’s not about geography. That’s about nature, source, and method. A kingdom that requires earthly force is precisely what He denies.

And when Jesus says believers are “not of the world,” He clarifies the same ethical contrast:

“They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.” — John 17:16
You’re importing a meaning the text doesn’t carry.


2. The “non‑sequitur” accusation misses the actual logic of the passage. Jesus rejects the very kind of kingdom premillennialism requires:

  • political
  • territorial
  • enforced by earthly power
He says plainly:

“My kingdom is not from here.” — John 18:36
That’s not merely “origin.” It’s a denial of the earthly mode of kingdom-building.

And Scripture consistently describes Christ’s reign as heavenly in nature, even when it impacts earth:

  • His throne is in heaven (Psalm 103:19).
  • He is seated at the right hand of God now (Hebrews 10:12–13).
  • His kingdom is within/among you (Luke 17:20–21).
  • Flesh and blood do not inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50).
You can’t turn those into a future earthly regime without breaking the text.


3. The strawman is actually on your side. No one said premillennialists think Jesus’ kingdom is “worldly” in the sinful sense. The issue is that premillennialism does require a kingdom that is:

  • geographical
  • political
  • temporal
  • enforced by earthly authority
Yet Jesus rejects that model outright:

“The kingdom of God does not come with observation… the kingdom of God is within you.” — Luke 17:20–21
And He rebukes the desire for a political restoration:

“It is not for you to know the times or seasons…” — Acts 1:6–7
Calling out that contradiction isn’t a strawman. It’s simply refusing to pretend the system fits the Scriptures.


✦ What that Acts 1:6–7 point means​

When I said Jesus “rebukes the desire for a political restoration,” I wasn’t saying He rebukes curiosity or rebukes the disciples for asking a question. I’m saying He redirects their expectation away from the very thing premillennialism requires: a restored, earthly, geopolitical kingdom of Israel.

Look at the exchange:

“Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” — Acts 1:6
“It is not for you to know the times or seasons…” — Acts 1:7
The disciples are asking about a national, political restoration — the same expectation Jews had throughout the Gospels (Luke 24:21; John 6:15).

Jesus does not affirm that expectation. He does not say, “Yes, later.” He does not say, “Correct idea, wrong timing.”

He shuts down the entire category of the question and immediately redirects them to a spiritual mission, not a political kingdom:

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be My witnesses…” — Acts 1:8
He replaces:

  • political restoration with
  • Spirit-empowered witness
That’s the point.
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
19,082
5,821
113
35
Alabama
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Gender
Male
You’re building an argument on category mistakes and then defending conclusions the text itself won’t support.

1. The equivocation on “world” (kosmos). You insist Jesus meant “world system,” but then use that to smuggle in a future geopolitical kingdom. Yet Jesus’ own contrast is between earthly power and heavenly authority, not “origin vs. location.”

Jesus explicitly defines His meaning in the same breath:


That’s not about geography. That’s about nature, source, and method. A kingdom that requires earthly force is precisely what He denies.

And when Jesus says believers are “not of the world,” He clarifies the same ethical contrast:


You’re importing a meaning the text doesn’t carry.


2. The “non‑sequitur” accusation misses the actual logic of the passage. Jesus rejects the very kind of kingdom premillennialism requires:

  • political
  • territorial
  • enforced by earthly power
He says plainly:


That’s not merely “origin.” It’s a denial of the earthly mode of kingdom-building.

And Scripture consistently describes Christ’s reign as heavenly in nature, even when it impacts earth:

  • His throne is in heaven (Psalm 103:19).
  • He is seated at the right hand of God now (Hebrews 10:12–13).
  • His kingdom is within/among you (Luke 17:20–21).
  • Flesh and blood do not inherit it (1 Corinthians 15:50).
You can’t turn those into a future earthly regime without breaking the text.


3. The strawman is actually on your side. No one said premillennialists think Jesus’ kingdom is “worldly” in the sinful sense. The issue is that premillennialism does require a kingdom that is:

  • geographical
  • political
  • temporal
  • enforced by earthly authority
Yet Jesus rejects that model outright:


And He rebukes the desire for a political restoration:


Calling out that contradiction isn’t a strawman. It’s simply refusing to pretend the system fits the Scriptures.


✦ What that Acts 1:6–7 point means​

When I said Jesus “rebukes the desire for a political restoration,” I wasn’t saying He rebukes curiosity or rebukes the disciples for asking a question. I’m saying He redirects their expectation away from the very thing premillennialism requires: a restored, earthly, geopolitical kingdom of Israel.

Look at the exchange:


The disciples are asking about a national, political restoration — the same expectation Jews had throughout the Gospels (Luke 24:21; John 6:15).

Jesus does not affirm that expectation. He does not say, “Yes, later.” He does not say, “Correct idea, wrong timing.”

He shuts down the entire category of the question and immediately redirects them to a spiritual mission, not a political kingdom:


He replaces:

  • political restoration with
  • Spirit-empowered witness
That’s the point.


For me, it’s like this. There are people who sincerely believe that the Kingdom will one day come to earth in a visible way — that Jesus will physically reign here for a period of time before the end finally arrives. Many of these people are genuine, God‑fearing believers, and I respect that. Their sincerity isn’t in question.

But I’m someone who wants the truth on these matters, not traditions or theories. And when I look at Scripture, I don’t see this whole future earthly‑kingdom scenario laid out the way it’s often taught. Growing up, I saw things like the Left Behind series, and a lot of that mixed political ideas with Jesus, the Antichrist, and end‑times speculation. It shaped people’s expectations, but not necessarily from Scripture itself.

A lot of people simply believe what they were told. And at the end of the day, each person has to choose for themselves. We go around sharing the Bible, explaining it the best we can with what we’ve been given. But we also have to remember what Scripture actually says about who we are right now.

Paul says we belong to “the Jerusalem above” (Galatians 4:26). He says God “has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the Kingdom of His beloved Son” (Colossians 1:13). Jesus Himself said, “The Kingdom of God is within you” (Luke 17:21). That means we are already sons and daughters of God, already part of His heavenly reality through faith.

So if someone believes what they believe simply because they’ve chosen to hold to it — and they don’t desire to reconsider — then that ultimately comes down to their own will and desires. What a person accepts as true or not true is something they themselves must wrestle with.

That’s where I stand.
 

Stumpmaster

Well-Known Member
Apr 5, 2009
2,755
1,797
113
71
Hamilton, New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
That’s the point.
This is the point: "This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

The Book of Revelation calls itself prophecy, and its clearest future prophecies are the visible Second Coming
(Rev 1:7; 14:14–20; 16:15; 19:11–21) and the literal Millennial Reign (Rev 20:1–6). The sequence is explicit: Christ returns, judges, binds Satan, raises the saints, and reigns for a thousand years.

1. Revelation Identifies Itself as Prophecy


Revelation opens and closes by declaring its genre:
  • Rev 1:1–3 — “The revelation… to show His servants things which must shortly take place… Blessed is he who reads… the words of this prophecy.”
  • Rev 22:7,10,18–19 — “Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
This frames the entire book as predictive, not merely symbolic or historical.

2. Futurist Passages Prophesying the Second Coming of Christ

These are the clearest future‑looking prophecies of Christ’s visible return.

A. Revelation 1:7 — The Programmatic Prophecy: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him…”​

This verse sets the trajectory for the whole book: a visible, global, public return.

B. Revelation 14:14–20 — The Son of Man Harvests the Earth

John sees:
  • “One like the Son of Man” on a cloud
  • With a sharp sickle
  • Reaping the earth in judgment
This is a pre‑Armageddon preview of Christ’s return in judgment.

C. Revelation 16:15 — The Interjected Warning: “Behold, I am coming as a thief.”​

Inserted between the sixth and seventh bowls, this is a direct prophetic announcement of His imminent return.

D. Revelation 19:11–16 — The Climactic Second Coming

This is the most explicit Second Coming passage in the entire Bible:
  • Heaven opened
  • Christ on a white horse
  • Called Faithful and True
  • Eyes like fire
  • Many crowns
  • Armies of heaven following Him
  • Strikes the nations
  • Rules with a rod of iron
This is not symbolic of the church; it is the personal return of Christ in power and glory.

E. Revelation 19:17–21 — Armageddon and the Defeat of the Beast

Christ:
  • Slays the Beast’s armies
  • Casts the Beast and False Prophet into the lake of fire
This is the eschatological battle tied directly to His return.

3. Futurist Passages Prophesying the Millennial Reign of Christ

The Millennial Kingdom is described explicitly in Revelation 20:1–6.

A. Revelation 20:1–3 — Satan Bound for 1,000 Years

An angel:
  • Seizes Satan
  • Binds him
  • Casts him into the abyss
  • Seals it for a thousand years
This is a future, chronological event following the Second Coming of chapter 19.

B. Revelation 20:4 — The Reign of Christ and the Martyrs

John sees:
  • Thrones
  • Those given authority to judge
  • The martyrs who refused the Beast
  • “They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.”
This is the first resurrection (v. 5–6), and it is future, bodily, and earthly.

C. Revelation 20:5–6 — The First Resurrection and Blessedness of the Saints

The text explicitly distinguishes:
  • The first resurrection (of the righteous)
  • The rest of the dead (who rise later)
And it states: “They shall reign with Him a thousand years.”

This is the Millennial Reign, not a metaphor for the church age.

4. Futurist Flow of Revelation (Ch. 19–20)

A Futurist reading sees a straight chronological sequence:
  1. Second Coming (19:11–16)
  2. Armageddon (19:17–21)
  3. Satan bound (20:1–3)
  4. First resurrection (20:4–6)
  5. Millennial reign (20:4–6)
  6. Satan released (20:7–10)
  7. Final judgment (20:11–15)

This is the simplest, most natural reading of the text.