Christ has already returned ?

[PeterAndroz]

Hmmm, how interesting.
When did the following occur ?

When Matt 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When did 2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[PeterAndroz]

As suspected, the Preterist nonsense destroyed by a few simple verses.
Conc :-
Christ has NOT YET returned

 

[markalan]

Hmmm, how interesting.
When did the following occur ?

When Matt 24:21
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
When 1 Thess 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
When did 2 Thess 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

As I understand Preterism, they would say those events were fulfilled in the past of fulfilled spiritually -
Mat 24:21 ... fulfilled Jerusalem 70AD
1 Thes 4:17 ... our Christian life: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
2 Thes 2:8 ... the conquering of pagan Rome by the Gospel

I am not a preterist, or even a partial preterist, but I would say 1 Thes 4:17 is a spiritual event ... I believe in a literal rapture, but aspects of being "caught up" are spiritual ... the idea of millions of bodies suddenly floating up into the air is a movie fantasy.

 

[MatthewG]

As I understand Preterism, they would say those events were fulfilled in the past of fulfilled spiritually -
Mat 24:21 ... fulfilled Jerusalem 70AD
1 Thes 4:17 ... our Christian life: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus"
2 Thes 2:8 ... the conquering of pagan Rome by the Gospel

I am not a preterist, or even a partial preterist, but I would say 1 Thes 4:17 is a spiritual event ... I believe in a literal rapture, but aspects of being "caught up" are spiritual ... the idea of millions of bodies suddenly floating up into the air is a movie fantasy.

I’m someone who believes Jesus was seen physically, not spiritually or symbolically. Scripture says plainly, “He presented Himself alive… being seen by them” (Acts 1:3). That physical appearing matters, because it anchors everything in real fulfillment, not abstraction.

My belief goes against the core of their system because I hold to fulfillment — that Jesus kept His word exactly as He said He would. He was not a liar. He told His disciples, “Some standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). I take Him at His word.

I believe He gathered the Bride of Christ in that day and age, just as He promised: “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). The apostles understood this timing, saying they were living in “the ends of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11).


@markalan thank you for bringing those points up.

When it comes down to it all us are gonna die and go be judged by God I believe immediately upon death. that’s my view, we are all gonna go meet God one day that’s for sure.

 

[markalan]

He told His disciples, “Some standing here will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom” (Matthew 16:28). I take Him at His word.

I believe He gathered the Bride of Christ in that day and age, just as He promised: “I will come again and receive you to Myself” (John 14:3). The apostles understood this timing, saying they were living in “the ends of the ages” (1 Corinthians 10:11).

So it sounds as if you believe Jesus' second coming was in the days of the apostles ... is that correct?

 

[MatthewG]

So it sounds as if you believe Jesus' second coming was in the days of the apostles ... is that correct?

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t hold to the idea that Jesus “came spiritually” in some vague or invisible sense. I believe He came just as He promised, and He was seen by the faithful who were watching, waiting, and looking, exactly like Hebrews describes. “To those who eagerly waited for Him, He appeared a second time…” (Hebrews 9:28).

The expectation today is very different. Most people imagine some massive, world‑shaking, cinematic event—almost like one of those Marvel movie scenes where the sky splits open and the whole planet watches at once. But Scripture never described it that way. Jesus spoke of a coming that their generation would witness (Matthew 24:34), and the apostles told them to be watchful because they would see it (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17, Hebrews 10:37).

For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.

 

[markalan]

For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.

Do you see Paul mentioning the return of Jesus Christ as a future event in his last epistles to Timothy & Titus?

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13)

 

[MatthewG]

Do you see Paul mentioning the return of Jesus Christ as a future event in his last epistles to Timothy & Titus?

Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" (Titus 2:13)

Hold up — do you accept anything I said earlier? If not, then bringing this up as though it overturns my point doesn’t really mean anything.

 

[markalan]

Hold up — do you accept anything I said earlier? If not, then bringing this up as though it overturns my point doesn’t really mean anything.

From what you said earlier, I have the impression you believe Jesus returned in the days of the apostles ... and I am trying to see how that fits with Paul's comments in his last epistles.

 

[MatthewG]

and I am trying to see how that fits with Paul's comments in his last epistles.

Alright, that’s on you then. I can’t help if you’ve already made up your mind. No one gets to dictate another person’s faith — that belongs to you alone. Even God doesn’t force anyone to believe. He gives people the freedom to trust Him or to reject Him.

Scripture says, ‘Choose you this day whom ye will serve’ (Joshua 24:15). And again, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). Faith is always a choice, never something imposed.


@markalan - Yes, I do believe Jesus returned. I’m not joking when I say that. I have faith that He fulfilled His promise just like He said He would.

People still meet Jesus in this life, and God still changes hearts. Scripture says, ‘Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you’ (James 4:8). And Jesus said, ‘If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him’ (Revelation 3:20).

It’s all still amazing. God is still working, still calling, and still transforming lives.

 

[markalan]

Alright, that’s on you then. I can’t help if you’ve already made up your mind. No one gets to dictate another person’s faith — that belongs to you alone. Even God doesn’t force anyone to believe. He gives people the freedom to trust Him or to reject Him.

Scripture says, ‘Choose you this day whom ye will serve’ (Joshua 24:15). And again, ‘Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely’ (Revelation 22:17). Faith is always a choice, never something imposed.


@markalan - Yes, I do believe Jesus returned. I’m not joking when I say that. I have faith that He fulfilled His promise just like He said He would.

People still meet Jesus in this life, and God still changes hearts. Scripture says, ‘Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you’ (James 4:8). And Jesus said, ‘If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him’ (Revelation 3:20).

It’s all still amazing. God is still working, still calling, and still transforming lives.

One of the reasons for my participation in a variety of forums is not to change minds, but to find out what people believe and why they believe it. I thank you for sharing some of what you believe ... I would like to go further but I have the impression you would not welcome my questions. That's ok.

I fully agree with your concluding remarks which are the most important aspect of our faith.

 

[MatthewG]

One of the reasons for my participation in a variety of forums is not to change minds, but to find out what people believe and why they believe it. I thank you for sharing some of what you believe ... I would like to go further but I have the impression you would not welcome my questions. That's ok.

I fully agree with your concluding remarks which are the most important aspect of our faith.

No problem. People really do have to stop and question things for themselves, because at the end of the day it isn’t about me answering for anyone. Scripture constantly calls people to examine what they believe: “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

A lot of the tension people feel comes from the topics surrounding the end of the age, the removal of Satan, and the white throne judgment — events that Scripture places within the framework of the first‑century generation. Jesus said plainly, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34). John also wrote to his audience about the judgment that was “about to” occur (Revelation 1:1, 3).

It’s understandable that people are interested in these things. But it still requires each person to look at their Bible, compare Scripture with Scripture, and seek understanding by the Spirit and not the flesh. Paul warned that “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Many desire Jesus to come back simply because they hate it here or want an escape, but Jesus never told us to watch for those events. He told them — His first‑century disciples — “When you see these things…” (Luke 21:20–22). Their context matters.

All the best.

 

[markalan]

No problem. People really do have to stop and question things for themselves, because at the end of the day it isn’t about me answering for anyone. Scripture constantly calls people to examine what they believe: “Test all things; hold fast what is good” (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

A lot of the tension people feel comes from the topics surrounding the end of the age, the removal of Satan, and the white throne judgment — events that Scripture places within the framework of the first‑century generation. Jesus said plainly, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matthew 24:34). John also wrote to his audience about the judgment that was “about to” occur (Revelation 1:1, 3).

It’s understandable that people are interested in these things. But it still requires each person to look at their Bible, compare Scripture with Scripture, and seek understanding by the Spirit and not the flesh. Paul warned that “the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God” (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Many desire Jesus to come back simply because they hate it here or want an escape, but Jesus never told us to watch for those events. He told them — His first‑century disciples — “When you see these things…” (Luke 21:20–22). Their context matters.

All the best.

You have quoted Scripture in your posts ... which is good. We all need to base our beliefs firmly on Scripture.

However, we should not assume that those with a different view have not also carefully considered the same Scriptural references.

We grow in understanding when we learn to integrate all the Bible says on a topic. For instance, compare Rev 1:3 with Rev 1:19.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I understand what you’re saying, but I don’t hold to the idea that Jesus “came spiritually” in some vague or invisible sense. I believe He came just as He promised, and He was seen by the faithful who were watching, waiting, and looking, exactly like Hebrews describes. “To those who eagerly waited for Him, He appeared a second time…” (Hebrews 9:28).

The expectation today is very different. Most people imagine some massive, world‑shaking, cinematic event—almost like one of those Marvel movie scenes where the sky splits open and the whole planet watches at once. But Scripture never described it that way. Jesus spoke of a coming that their generation would witness (Matthew 24:34), and the apostles told them to be watchful because they would see it (1 Thessalonians 4:15–17, Hebrews 10:37).

For me, the testimony of Scripture stands:
He came, He was seen, and He fulfilled what He said to the people who were actually told to expect it.

This is mind numbing for some:

Act 1:6-11 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (7) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (9) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, (11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

 

[MatthewG]

You have quoted Scripture in your posts ... which is good. We all need to base our beliefs firmly on Scripture.

However, we should not assume that those with a different view have not also carefully considered the same Scriptural references.

We grow in understanding when we learn to integrate all the Bible says on a topic. For instance, compare Rev 1:3 with Rev 1:19.

But I don’t know if they have or not. I don’t do it for my own benefit or theirs. I’m happy just to provide.

I haven’t sat down and read revelation in idk two years, now.

I know the arguments but alas everyone must choose for themselves.

 

[MatthewG]

This is mind numbing for some:

Act 1:6-11 Therefore, when they had come together, they asked Him, saying, "Lord, will You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" (7) And He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has put in His own authority. (8) But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." (9) Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. (10) And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, (11) who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

Then you have Peter proclaiming in Acts 2 that they were already living in the last days, which is fascinating. When the Spirit was poured out, Peter said, “This is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, I will pour out My Spirit…’” (Acts 2:16–17). He wasn’t pointing thousands of years ahead — he was saying it was happening right then.

I just don’t have any problems with this anymore. If Yahavah wanted to confront me about trusting Jesus’ words — especially about His return — He would. Jesus Himself said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away” (Matthew 24:35). So if I were rejecting something true, He knows how to deal with His own. But that hasn’t been an issue.

Many people doubt, and honestly, some leaders have a lot to lose. If someone runs a church system, they need people to keep coming, keep giving, keep expecting a future event. Paul warned that some teach “for dishonest gain” (Titus 1:11), and Peter said false teachers would “exploit you with deceptive words” (2 Peter 2:3).

If Jesus already returned, that collapses the entire modern end‑times industry. You can’t build fear‑based sermons, conferences, or prophetic hype if the main event already happened.

And on top of that, if you have people who believe Jesus’ Kingdom is of this world, and that He needs to come back to set up a new earthly nation with Himself ruling from a physical throne — that opens the door to a whole pile of extra jargon and traditions Jesus never taught. He said plainly, “My kingdom is not of this world” (John 18:36). That alone dismantles the idea of a future geopolitical kingdom.