Calling all Law Keepers.

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
The "ritual" act that Christ put into place was a symbolic representation to be performed once a year on Passover <snip>

Again, I must challenge you, though I kick and scream that I must, for I do not wish to do so.

The above is a common misconception amoung those of us that have chosen to walk a certain path.

Could Jesus have lawfully both eaten the Passover sacrifice, and then been the Passover sacrifice in the same month of the same year?

<snip>

Of course man has reimagined this act to be done every week on a day they call the Sabbath and most don't even realize that the Passover sacrifice did not fall on a weekly Sabbath even before the Sabbath change by man from Saturday to sunday.

I concur, they attempted to change the set times and the law. However, to meet upon the first day of the week, was an example set (cf Acts 20:7 ; 1 Cor 16:2). However it did not do away with, nor set aside the former. In Acts 20:7, they clearly "broke bread" together. An interesting manner of saying they "ate"? Especially when you consider this in the light of 1 Cor 11.


When "Pentecost" came:

Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the "breaking of bread" and the prayers.

<snip>

1 Cor 11:23 I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

The Passover meal that Christ sat at with the disciples would have happened just after the 13th (which as we know the evening begins the next day) on Abib 14 since he was the sacrificial lamb that would be slain on Abib 14 at evening which in this case was during the week. Thus all disciples would celebrate "it" the new covenant on the same day of the year as the Passover fell on.

Again, I must challenge you with regard to this:

1Co 11:18a For first of all, when ye come together in the church...

1Co 11:20 When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper:

That is not speaking of a "yearly" occurrence.


There is nothing wrong with "Communion", as a weekly, monthly, even daily occurrence. The "breaking of bread" together.

However, that does not set aside the appointed time. I have always found it interesting that in the account by Josephus of when the temple fell, that it was the very night that the Israelites should have been keeping "vigil".

Exodus 12:42 Because YHVH kept *vigil* that night to bring them out of Egypt, on this night all the Israelites are to keep *vigil* to honor YHVH for the generations to come.

Deuteronomy 16:7 Roast it and eat it at the place YHVH your God will choose. *Then in the morning return to your tents.*


If I may:

Exodus 34:22a Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest...

Deuteronomy 16:9 Count off seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. 10 Then celebrate the Feast of Weeks to the YHVH your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the YHVH your God has given you. 11 And rejoice before the YHVH your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name-you, your sons and
daughters, your menservants and maidservants, the Levites in your towns, and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows living among you. 12 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt, and follow carefully these decrees.

In the above, there are a few things to take note of:
1) 7 weeks from the time you begin to harvest the standing grain
2) a freewill offering
3) rejoice
4) aliens / strangers were included

When is this to occur:

Leviticus 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, when ye come into the land that I give unto you, and ye reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest. 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the YHVH, to be accepted for you; on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it...

The day after shabat, that is: The first day of the week.


From Exodus 34:22 we have firstfruits of the wheat harvest, Deut 16:9 the standing grain, Deut 16:10 it is to be a freewill offering, Deut 16:11 we are to rejoice at the place He will choose as a dwelling for His Name, not only Yisreal, but also the alien, the stranger, the sojourner. And all this is to occur on a day following shabat.

Let's compare this for just a moment with "Palm Sunday":

John 12:13b ...and cried, Hosanna, blessed (is) he that comes in the name of
(the) Lord, the King of Israel.

Seems to me that we may have the freewill offering of praise (cf Deut 16:10-11, cp Psalm 54:6, Heb 13:15).


John 12:19 The Pharisees therefore said to one another, Ye see that ye profit nothing: behold, the world is gone after him. 20 And there were certain Greeks among those who came up that they might worship in the feast

Deut 16:11 and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy bondman, and thy handmaid, and the Levite that is in thy gates, and the *stranger / alien*, and the fatherless, and the widow that are in thy midst in the place that the LORD thy God will choose to cause His Name to dwell there.

We have the alien / stranger / sojourner.

Jesus entered into Jerusalem, the place that YHVH had chosen as a dwelling for His Name.

Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit.


After the resurrection, he appeared to his disciples over a period of 40 days (Acts 1:3), at that time he ascended into the heavens.

Let's do a little math:

Truimphal entry / Palm Sunday to the resurrection: 7 days
Resurrection to the ascension 40 days
We now have 47 days.

Jesus states, In a *few/not many days* days you will be baptized with the
Ruakh ha-Qodesh (Holy Spirit) (Acts 1:5).

A *few/not many days* days later, on the 50th day after the Jesus' entry
into Jerusalem upon a colt, the first-fruits of the Ruakh ha-Qodesh is
poured out upon the disciples on the day of "Pentecost" (Acts 2:1).

I always found this interesting:

Lev 23:16 even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meal-offering unto YHVH. 17 Ye shall bring out of your habitations two wave-loaves of two tenth parts of an ephah: they shall be of fine flour, they shall be baken with leaven, for first-fruits unto YHVH.


My apologies for the length of my replies.

 

[Dcopymope]

What is it describing there then? I must admit, I have all sorts of trouble with Revelation..

Well, its simply referring to all those who have been tossed in the lake of fire. They won't be entering into the city to eat of the tree because they won't be inhabiting the new heaven and earth to begin with. To boil it down, its saying that you can rest assured that you will never see a witch, or a harlot ever again at that point.

 

[Richard_oti]

Yes. That sounds right to me. However...
I reread Genesis.
If you look at 3:19, the curses, it says that Adam was taken from the ground and was dust, and to dust he would return. This was a CURSE, which means that a blessing had been taken away.

Rather than a garden of food with access to the "Tree of Life", he now had to work the ground for his food, and lost access to the "Tree of Life".

Man was always mortal. Did "Satan" and the third that fell with him lose their "immortality"? Or are they still around until they are sent to the "Lake of Fire". Yes, all flesh is not the same flesh, there are celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial. However, the first man is of the earth (cf 1 Cor 15:39-49).

1Ti 6:14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen.

The blessing, or preternatural gift, was immortality.

WADR: I disagree regarding "immortality". If "immortality" was inherent to them, there would have been no need to block access to the "Tree of Life". 1 Tim 6:16 makes clear, that YHVH alone has "immortality".

I am going to <snip> the rest and refer you to @KBCid 's reply.

Laylah tov.

 

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
Read these things and be all God made you to be. Do not listen to man or men... even me. Listen to what the still small voice says through your heart.... and test the spirits... if they do not speak after his word then they are not of God

Amen!

KJV Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[pia]

Well, its simply referring to all those who have been tossed in the lake of fire. They won't be entering into the city to eat of the tree because they won't be inhabiting the new heaven and earth to begin with. To boil it down, its saying that you can rest assured that you will never see a witch, or a harlot ever again at that point.

So, more of a metaphorical reference?

 

[Dcopymope]

So, more of a metaphorical reference?

A metaphorical reference?

 

[pia]

Agree....where anyone came up with an apple I have never understood...maybe from the early paintings.

I belive the “fruit” that Eve wanted and was enticed by , and what she took of , was knowledge ...Satan told her that she would be like God knowing good and evil.
She believed that God was with holding back something she wanted.
She sold this lie to Adam...and the story continues....

I like the way you emphasized the word 'knowing', as you, I and a couple of others have tried in various ways, of passing on the truth of the difference between 'knowing ABOUT something' and 'KNOWING something', as we also see here in relation to Eve and even to our Father.
God certainly is aware of what evil is, He has knowledge about it, it's existence, but He most certainly is not nor has He EVER been a partaker of it....His Wisdom and righteousness would have prevented that, if it could have come to that..
But really it couldn't have anyway, because evil is merely what is there, without God............Obviously God can't join someone who has decided to 'move' away from Him.
God cannot be where a choice has been made to be without Him..
Darkness is where there is no Light of God.
Death is where there is no Life of God.
Hate is where there is no Love of God.
On and on we can go....God never created all that, it is what becomes when He is not in it....We're told certain created beings turned against God and by that action they chose to be without Him and be separate....As they would no longer have been able to abide Gods Light, the darkness would have become their new home and unable to 'die' the way human flesh can, I guess for now they are stuck in that darkness until this lake of fire is made for them, (if it does occur as the Bible describes to us) and they will do all they can to drag as many humans with them as they can.
Sorry I drifted there...About Eve ? I do believe you're right in emphasizing that, as they would not have had either knowledge or knowing of what evil was....They only knew good, as we're told by the Bible. God had looked and said that it was all VERY good, so that was all they KNEW at that point.......So being informed that there was more to know and being told the lie that she would KNOW like God KNEW ( lie no. 1) and that they wouldn't die ( also a lie), The Bible says that she ate off this particular tree, which was obviously NOT the Tree of Life, but it doesn't really make us any wiser......So I guess to make it simple the translators took the liberty of calling it an apple, probably because it is common, so most would understand that lol...We must not forget that when the Bible was being put together and for centuries after, most people were illiterate..:)
I love the first few chapters of Genesis, it tells us so much if we just digest it really really slowly and really seek understanding of it...It's a veritable treasure trove .......Sorry that I ended up waffling on..

 

[pia]

A metaphorical reference?

Do you imagine that outside a glorious place our Father is going to make, is going to have this awful, smelly lake of fire just outside the city gates ????

 

[Dcopymope]

Do you imagine that outside a glorious place our Father is going to make, is going to have this awful, smelly lake of fire just outside the city gates ????

Uhhh no...because it says no such thing. When you get to scripture discussing a new heaven and earth, the Lake of Fire judgement is over and done with. Its real simple, if your name isn't in the book of life, you will never get a chance to set eyes on the new creation to come.

(Revelation 21:24-27) "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. {25} And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. {26} And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. {27} And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life."

 

[pia]

Uhhh no...because it says no such thing. When you get to scripture discussing a new heaven and earth, the Lake of Fire judgement is over and done with. Its real simple, if your name isn't in the book of life, you will never get a chance to set eyes on the new creation to come.

That was why I asked the original questions, as it puzzled me, I will have to read it in my Bible...Haven't read the whole passage for the longest time...:)

 

[KBCid]

I must admit, when I first read your post, I had to do a double take and ask the question, did I just understand you correctly. After reading your subsequent posts, I have to conclude that I indeed did read you correctly.
As much as I don't really want to, I must challenge you with regard to this. Please note, it is done in love as for a brother. You are free to do with it as you will. Perhaps it has merit, perhaps it does not. I shall try to keep this short and to the point, yet enough for most to perhaps understand.

You honor me as I will you.

Question: Can Jesus both have eaten the Passover and been the Passover in the same month of the same year? Question: How long would it take from the time the lamb is slain, which could only be done in the place where YHVH chose to place haShem (Cf Deut 16:2, 6). Then taken back to the place in which whoever was staying, and was roasted whole, until it was time to eat of it?

The end of the 13th at twilight begins the 14th, Christ had the last supper on the night that begins the 14th and the Passover does not occur until the afternoon on the 14 at twilight.... the time when Christ was slain right? And according to the original OT directions the feast of unleavened bread does not occur until after the Passover. I do get that however, see my point in another question of your below.

IMO, this must be considered, for in the realization of this, it further helps us to understand the timing.
The Passover is a sacrifice, it is not a "day". It is a sacrifice in a prescribed month, on a prescribed day, at a prescribed time(frame). Yes, there is also a "second" Passover in the second month for those away on a journey or "unclean" on account of a dead body (Gee, I wonder why), cf BeMidbar 9 ; 19:11.

Agreed.
And the second is incidental.

The Passover (sacrifice) is given to be upon the 14th between the evenings. "Unleavened Bread" does not begin until the 15th. The Passover is to be eaten with unleavened bread, the feast of
unleaven is for seven days only. The Passover seder is the meal that (pardon my expression) *kicks off* the feast so to speak. (cf Exodus 12:8)

Indeed you have a fine quandary on your hands when you read this;
26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples

I have no quandary with all that you put in this post from everything I have read and translated it should be just as you said and I have searched high and low for how this could be but I do not yet have a satisfactory answer as to why the NT shows that the feast is 8 but, Christ made no objection to the disciples that all apparently believed the feast was occurring at the same time as the Passover.

 

[Dcopymope]

That was why I asked the original questions, as it puzzled me, I will have to read it in my Bible...Haven't read the whole passage for the longest time...:)

Well, in the judgement, your fate boils down to one thing, the book of life. If you aren't in it, you're finished. You will get drop kicked into the fire reserved for Satan and his angel gang that's been running amok for God knows how long. And then in the next chapter its describing the nations and the kings of those nations entering into the gates of New Jerusalem to eat of the tree among other things, but only those who were found in the book of life. Those two verses alone paints a complete picture of the situation. Will the Lake of Fire still be around in this utopia? Well, the Lake of Fire is referred to as the second death, and God says that there will be no more death in the new creation, so I have no reason to believe that it will still be present.

(Revelation 21:3-5) "And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. {4} And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. {5} And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful."

So here we see John backing up what Isaiah stated many times over that we won't remember all the death, suffering, the sin, and daily toil of this fallen world. It won't even cross our mind, nor could it ever possibly spring up again because of the Lord Jesus Christ, the absence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and no more Satan.

 

[Richard_oti]

The end of the 13th at twilight begins the 14th, Christ had the last supper on the night that begins the 14th and the Passover does not occur until the afternoon on the 14 at twilight.... the time when Christ was slain right? And according to the original OT directions the feast of unleavened bread does not occur until after the Passover. I do get that however, see my point in another question of your below.

I figured you got it. But it is the complete and total reconciliation of the two.

<snip>

Indeed you have a fine quandary on your hands when you read this;
26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?
26:18 And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples

I have no quandary with all that you put in this post from everything I have read and translated it should be just as you said and I have searched high and low for how this could be but I do not yet have a satisfactory answer as to why the NT shows that the feast is 8 but, Christ made no objection to the disciples that all apparently believed the feast was occurring at the same time as the Passover.

You are obviously quoting from the Matthew account. However if we examine Mark, Luke and John, we do not see it written in quite the same manner:

Mar 14:12 And on the first day of unleavened bread, when they sacrificed the passover, his disciples say unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and make ready that thou mayest eat the passover?

1) The first day, is the preparation day, the 14th, on which they slay the sacrifice (cf Matt 27:62; Mark 15:41; Luke 23:54; John 19:14). Of which, they went to great lengths to be sure that all "yeast" was removed. As this was the evening beginning the 14th, had things not of gone as they did, I am sure the disciples would have thoroughly cleaned during the daylight hours of the 14th before the Passover was to be slain.

2) The 1st day... "when they sacrificed the passover", clearly places this after sunset and upon / into the 14th. However, that also makes it abundantly clear that it IS the 14th, and not the 15th, which is the 1st day of "Unleavened Bread".


Luk 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

As previously stated, the terms Passover and Unleavened Bread are used as almost interchangeable terms. They became synonymous one for another as evidenced above.


Luk 22:7 And the day of unleavened bread came, on which the passover must be sacrificed.

We both know from haTorah that the Passover is to be slain late of the 14th. We both also know that "Unleavened Bread" begins the 15th. Armed with that knowledge, how do you read Luke 22:7?


Now John, he is different: Joh 13:1a Now before the feast of the passover...

Joh 18:28 They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium: and it was early; and they themselves entered not into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the passover.

Joh 19:14 Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, Behold, your King!

IMO: John in his Gospel displays the most intimate knowledge of the Instruction. It is the Matthew account which muddies the waters of "understanding" in my opinion. Too many of us, not first knowing haTorah, try to filter haTorah through the "eyewitness" accounts, rather than to read the "eyewitness" accounts through the "lens" that is Torah. Once upon a time, I laid this out side by side from haTorah and each of the Gospel accounts, so that I could see each of the Gospels with regard to this in parallel.

I know firsthand, for I once ate "crow" regarding this, and upon discovering my error, publicly admitted it. "Crow", is not the best tasting, but I am pretty sure, in such an instance as that, it may perhaps be both tame' and tahor. Tame' with regard to Kosher, and tahor, in that which it brings.

He did not call learned men to be the 12 disciples. He chose fishermen, a tax collector ...

Which carries the greater weight? HaTorah, or a lone Gospel account. For within Mark, Luke and John, the "truth" is evident.

In His Love,
Richard

 

[KBCid]

Again, I must challenge you, though I kick and scream that I must, for I do not wish to do so. The above is a common misconception among those of us that have chosen to walk a certain path. Could Jesus have lawfully both eaten the Passover sacrifice, and then been the Passover sacrifice in the same month of the same year?

Well according to historians at the time of Christ there was a home Passover and a temple Passover and the home one occurred prior to the temple one at the beginning of the 14th and according to scripture Christ was at a home so from what I have scraped together such a thing can not be ruled out as of yet. Now don't be put off I could be wrong since this is not an inspired revelation. It is simply my putting together historical references and straight translations.

I concur, they attempted to change the set times and the law. However, to meet upon the first day of the week, was an example set (cf Acts 20:7 ; 1 Cor 16:2). However it did not do away with, nor set aside the former. In Acts 20:7, they clearly "broke bread" together. An interesting manner of saying they "ate"? Especially when you consider this in the light of 1 Cor 11.

They did change times and laws... no attempt about it... the only question is which. Meeting together is a logical thing for the new church but this did not make it the Sabbath it just meant that they had a meeting. You and I could meet each other on the Sabbath and then agree to meet on the first day of the week to conduct business or any other kind of work (which would not go against the Fathers command) such as collecting money to send to others right?

When "Pentecost" came: Act 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' teaching and fellowship, in the "breaking of bread" and the prayers.

Yes they did. And breaking bread does signify eating. Notice there is no mention of wine right? As you read that scripture through in context you see that they are living communally with all things shared right?

Again, I must challenge you with regard to this: 1Co 11:18a For first of all, when ye come together in the church... 1Co 11:20 When therefore ye assemble yourselves together, it is not possible to eat the Lord's supper: That is not speaking of a "yearly" occurrence. There is nothing wrong with "Communion", as a weekly, monthly, even daily occurrence. The "breaking of bread" together.

I know it sounds that way from the way the translation reads. However, many things in our view of the world are not the way The Jews would see it. They had a God given Holy day set aside for celebrating the Passover which by the way has not changed and the entirety of the scripture you quote could well be talking about what they are doing during that event at that time of the year. Keep in mind there may be years of time passing as epistles are sent from place to place and what may seem like a short time may not be at all. Just something to consider as we read these scriptures think about the timeline for when they were written.

If I may:
Exodus 34:22a Celebrate the Feast of Weeks with the firstfruits of the wheat harvest...
Deuteronomy 16:9 Count off seven weeks from the time you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. 10 Then celebrate the Feast of Weeks to the YHVH your God by giving a freewill offering in proportion to the blessings the YHVH your God has given you. 11 And rejoice before the YHVH your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name-you, your sons and
daughters, your menservants and maidservants, the Levites in your towns, and the aliens, the fatherless and the widows living among you. 12 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt, and follow carefully these decrees.
In the above, there are a few things to take note of:
1) 7 weeks from the time you begin to harvest the standing grain
2) a freewill offering
3) rejoice
4) aliens / strangers were included
When is this to occur:
Leviticus 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel and say unto them, when ye come into the land that I give unto you, and ye reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the first-fruits of your harvest unto the priest. 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the YHVH, to be accepted for you; on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it... The day after shabat, that is: The first day of the week.
From Exodus 34:22 we have firstfruits of the wheat harvest, Deut 16:9 the standing grain, Deut 16:10 it is to be a freewill offering, Deut 16:11 we are to rejoice at the place He will choose as a dwelling for His Name, not only Yisreal, but also the alien, the stranger, the sojourner. And all this is to occur on a day following shabat.

You may
Yes. Christ was the first fruit and he ascend to the father on the first day of the week which is why he told Mary not to touch him and that he was ascending to the father and then later on the same day he had no problem being touched. Consider this for a bit. I will answer as I have time for your other questions but it would be better to deal with shorter posts since I work fairly long hours ATM.

 

[Richard_oti]

Well according to historians at the time of Christ there was a home Passover and a temple Passover and the home one occurred prior to the temple one at the beginning of the 14th and according to scripture Christ was at a home so from what I have scraped together such a thing can not be ruled out as of yet. Now don't be put off I could be wrong since this is not an inspired revelation. It is simply my putting together historical references and straight translations.

I fully understand. To this day, those of the "House of Judah" still observe two days in many regards. However, could one truly partake of (eat) the Passover sacrifice before its appointed time? Nor, can one partake after its appointed time, as none is to remain until morning.


Does the "House of Judah" consist only of Judah and Benjamin?

2Ch 30:1 And Hezekiah sent to all Israel and Judah, and wrote letters also to Ephraim and Manasseh, that they should come to the house of YHVH at Jerusalem, to keep the passover unto YHVH, the God of Israel.

2Ch 30:11 Nevertheless certain men of Asher and Manasseh and of Zebulun humbled themselves, and came to Jerusalem.

2Ch 30:18 For a multitude of the people, even many of Ephraim and Manasseh, Issachar and Zebulun, had not cleansed themselves, yet did they eat the passover otherwise than it is written. For Hezekiah had prayed for them, saying, The good YHVH pardon every one

Nothing that I can prove, just a hunch.

They did change times and laws... no attempt about it... the only question is which.

Dan 7:25c ...and he shall think to change the times and the law...

As under Antiochus Epiphanes IV, and as under the second "little horn" of Daniel 7, it was in my opinion a "thought", an "attempt". However, can anyone really change the set times and law of YHVH? The threat, was the force of death for those who refused. However, there were those who stayed the course. Just as under Rome, there were those who stayed the course.


Wars 1:1:2. "Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most approved among them were put to death."
[cf Dan 8:9-12]

1 Maccabees 1:41 Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42 and that all should give up their particular customs. 43 All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. 44 And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the towns of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, 45 to forbid burnt offerings and
sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and festivals, 46 to defile the sanctuary and the priests, 47 to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and other unclean animals, 48 and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, 49 so that they would forget the law and change all the ordinances. 50 He added, "And whoever does not obey the
command of the king shall die."

54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, 55 and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. 56 The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. 57 Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. 58 They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. 59 On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. 60 According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, 61 and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks. 62 But many in Israel stood firm and were resolved in their hearts not to eat unclean food. 63 They chose to die rather than to be defiled by food or to profane the holy covenant; and they did die. 64 Very great wrath came upon Israel.
[cf Daniel 11:31; Ant 12:5:4]


2 Maccabees 5:21 So Antiochus carried off eighteen hundred talents from the temple, and hurried away to Antioch, thinking in his arrogance that he could sail on the land and walk on the
sea, because his mind was elated.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall ***be broken without hand.***

Thus signifying the manner of his death.


2 Maccabees 9:4 Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, "When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews." 5 But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, ***struck him with an incurable and invisible blow.***
As soon as he stopped speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels, for which there was no relief, and with sharp internal tortures - 6 and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. 7 Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to drive even faster. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. 8 Thus he who only a little while before had thought in his superhuman arrogance that he could command the waves of the sea, and had imagined that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. 9 And so the ungodly man's body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of the stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. 10 Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought
that he could touch the stars of heaven. 11 Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. 12 And when he could not endure his own stench, he uttered these words, "It is right to be subject to God; mortals should not think that they are equal to God." 13 Then the abominable fellow made a vow to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, ...

28 So the murderer and blasphemer, having endured the more intense suffering, such as he had inflicted on others, came to the end of his life by a most pitiable fate, among the mountains in a strange land. (cf Ant. 12.9.1; 13.8.2)


Wars 5:9.4 "For another example, when Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, lay before this city, and had been guilty of many indignities against God, and our forefathers met him in arms, they then were slain in the battle, this city was plundered by our enemies, and our sanctuary made desolate for **three years and six months**. And what need I bring any more examples? Indeed what can it be that hath stirred up an army of the Romans against our
nation?"


In Panarion 29, Epiphanius writes: "We shall now especially consider heretics who... call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews; for they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings ... so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and to the customs of the Jews, except they believe in [Messiah]... They preach that there is but one [Elohim], and his son [Y'shua the Messiah]. But they are very learned in the Hebrew language; for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites, such as circumcision, the Sabbath, and other ceremonies."
Epiphanius; Panarion 29

While I know that you are indeed aware and know much of this, I include it anyway for ease of reference, it does not require reply.

So yes, IMO he "thought" or "attempted" to change the set times and law.

 

[Richard_oti]

Continued:

Meeting together is a logical thing for the new church but this did not make it the Sabbath it just meant that they had a meeting.

Indubitably. For what were they doing upon Shabat? (cf Acts 13:14-16; 13:43-44; 17:10,17; 18:4, 19)

You and I could meet each other on the Sabbath and then agree to meet on the first day of the week to conduct business or any other kind of work (which would not go against the Fathers command) such as collecting money to send to others right?

Indubitably. Is it any wonder that Paul said to take up a collection upon the first day.

Yes they did. And breaking bread does signify eating. Notice there is no mention of wine right? As you read that scripture through in context you see that they are living communally with all things shared right?

Indeed on all counts. Yet, in 1 Cor 11, Paul also chastises them in that regard.

I know it sounds that way from the way the translation reads. However, many things in our view of the world are not the way The Jews would see it.

And vice versa. Many things in the world of Judaism, were not as they should have been seen or been.

They had a God given Holy day set aside for celebrating the Passover which by the way has not changed and the entirety of the scripture you quote could well be talking about what they are doing during that event at that time of the year. Keep in mind there may be years of time passing as epistles are sent from place to place and what may seem like a short time may not be at all. Just something to consider as we read these scriptures think about the timeline for when they were written.

Indeed.

You may
Yes. Christ was the first fruit and he ascend to the father on the first day of the week which is why he told Mary not to touch him and that he was ascending to the father and then later on the same day he had no problem being touched. Consider this for a bit. I will answer as I have time for your other questions but it would be better to deal with shorter posts since I work fairly long hours ATM.

I do understand, as do I. Today however, I happened to have some unexpected time and was on a roll.

Again, my apologies for the length. Much does not require reply. My time likewise shall be limited, and you may not hear from me for a day or two. Thus, I am taking full advantage of the time that "unexpectedly" appeared in my schedule.

 

[bbyrd009]

But... while the Head was ready after Gethsemene for the Body of Christ, the Body itself which is to consist of believers was still being prepared. Are we ready yet?

yes, "prepared bride" is another concept that i just know better than to even start a thread on anymore lol

 

[bbyrd009]

You just can't stop making up lies, can you.

ah, has that one been repealed now? cool.

 

[Richard_oti]

Further thoughts:

And breaking bread does signify eating. Notice there is no mention of wine right? As you read that scripture through in context you see that they are living communally with all things shared right?

Within the Gospel accounts, how oft does the phrase "break bread", or an equivalent such phrase occur before the "Last Supper"?


Speaking with regard to 1 Cor 11:

I know it sounds that way from the way the translation reads.

I read it much, if not the same, as you when I was at that point.

Keep in mind there may be years of time passing as epistles are sent from place to place and what may seem like a short time may not be at all. Just something to consider as we read these scriptures think about the timeline for when they were written.

Most always do. I used to enjoy putting together timelines, tracing down the timelines / frames. And, I have eaten "crow" for not having done so. Me no like "crow".

 

[pia]

Lord Jesus Christ, the absence of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and no more Satan

Sounds wonderful....Revelation is a book I have not easily gotten my head around, and having asked the Lord many times, but He taking me to Genesis instead ( for years ) I gave up even reading it...Perhaps it is time to have a good study of it...thank you.