What is the "New Creature"?

[Miss Hepburn]

@Godssrvr, sometimes I think we were separated at birth.

:]

 

[Godssrvr]

sometimes I think we were separated at birth.

It's possible because I have a sister that thinks nothing like I do. Maybe there was a mix up at the hospital?

 

[bbyrd009]

Try see how well you do....

that is a false paradigm though, as it is how well one confesses and rebounds there that is all that matters

 

[Godssrvr]

Folks, the "new creature" is that of us which is spirit, is born of incorruptible seed, and made one with the Lord. It's a positional truth that has nothing to do with mortal flesh.

John 3:5-6
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

 

[Jay Ross]

So it is your opinion that a person can live sinless? It's not my argument with Christ, but yours Jay. I just showed you scripture saying it's impossible. That would cause most people who practice humility to wonder if their understanding of the scripture was in error. We have to seek the truth to find it, but we can't desire to know the truth until we humble ourselves.

Matthew 18:1-4
18 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?

2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

It seems to me that you have not understood what I had written in response to your question.

What do you believe His "terms of peace" are Jay?

When I wrote the following: -

Is not one of them, "Go and sin no more."?

I provided one example from God's terms of peace. I made no claims as to whether or not a person would be able to fulfil the respective term for peace with God/Jesus without sinning.

As such, it seem that you are attributing words to me that I did not provide in my previous post.

All I provided was one simple term of reference for God's terms for peace with Him, for mankind. I did not comment on whether or not mankind would be able to keep the terms of peace with God/Jesus. It was you who commented on that aspect of my post when you said this: -

<snip>

If it is impossible to have any righteousness of our own before God, why did He tell anyone to "go and sin no more"? He may as well have told a dead man to swim the ocean. It's not possible for anyone to be sinless, even after we are saved, much less before! In Luke 18:27 Jesus says "what is impossible with man, is possible with God".

<snip>

This is your argument with God/Jesus, not mine.

Now. Are you suggesting that we can have a relationship with God on our terms and not God's terms?

 

[Godssrvr]

When Christ told the people to "Go and sin no more.", he was not saying that they would not sin no more, He was telling them to make the decision to not sin any more.

When we decide to "believe in Him whom he has sent," John 6, it is the starting point to allowing our minds to be renewed from what we learn, but if we do not also deliberately put on the "refreshed", made like new again," person that God intended us to be from the beginning of time, then we will sin and fall short of the Glory of God. God allows us to make that choice and throughout our physical life, we are continually making that choice every day we wake up. Yes the Holy Spirit helps us and prompts us to make the right choices in life, but the final decision is still ours.

God loves us because of who we are and have become in our relationship with Him. In the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats separation, God separates the Sheep, who have a heart after God's heart from the Goats, the people who want to get into heaven even though they do not have a heart after God, yet call God/Jesus, "Lord, Lord." In Matthew Jesus said of those who were performing miracles and casting out demons, that He did not know them, because of the attitude of their heart.

It is our responsibility to make the right judgement calls, and not God's. He draws us to Himself, but the decision as to whether or not we accept His terms of peace is still ours to make.

Shalom

This whole comment is bogus Jay. It's a false gospel! The OP is pointing out positional truths which are given to us through faith in Christ. All this garbage you have been saying is false. If you doubt my word on that, try using some scripture to back it up, and I'll provide scripture that will show unmistakably that the scripture you have tried to use is being used out of context. If you don't plan to use scripture that specifically backs your statements in this "Bible Study Forum", please don't bother to make any further comments on my post with nothing but your own words!

 

[Jay Ross]

This whole comment is bogus Jay. It's a false gospel! The OP is pointing out positional truths which are given to us through faith in Christ. All this garbage you have been saying is false. If you doubt my word on that, try using some scripture to back it up, and I'll provide scripture that will show unmistakably that the scripture you have tried to use is being used out of context. If you don't plan to use scripture that specifically backs your statements in this "Bible Study Forum", please don't bother to make any further comments on my post with nothing but your own words!

You are free to believe what you want, but to say that what I have written is a false gospel, when what I have posted is in line with what you are posting, without being prescriptive within my posts, is a poor argument to present on your part.

We are to put on the refreshed nature which God intended for us from the beginning of time. It is not a brand new nature, but it is a refreshed/reformed nature after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Now, I have not dotted all of the "i's" or crossed all of the "t's" as you have attempted to do. Nor have I been prescriptive in how we renew our mind or put on the refreshed/refurbished man. That, really, is between each individual and God. It is not my place to tell another soul how to re-establish their relationship with God/Christ. I can tell my story of how I have re-established and maintained my relationship with God, but to impose what I did to re-establish and maintain my relationship with God is wrong. My story will give them pointers as to how to go about it, but it is up to God to highlight what their steps are and how they should go about re-establishing and maintain their relationship with God/Jesus.

Every person is unique before God and God will show the individual how they are to progress in their transformation into the person He intended them to become. Will they fail along the way? Certainly. But with a repentant heart, all of those issues can be overcome.

Ezekiel 18:21-29 speaks volumes on this topic.

Shalom



​

 

[Godssrvr]

Are you Israel Jay? That's who this scripture you use was addressed to. We live in the age of grace, and no matter what age anyone came from, their justification has never been based on their own righteousness but their faith in the blood sacrifice of Christ. Old Testament saints look forward to the cross, we look back. But anyone who ever drew a breath has been or will be justified through faith in Christ. The Old Covenant was to the nation of Israel, not to me and you, or any individual for that matter. The law was never to save anyone, but to bring them to humble themselves before God and trust in Christ alone.

Read the parable of the Pharisee and the publican. Which one of these men do you think describes you best? Which one did Jesus say was justified before Him?

Luke 18:9-14
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 

[amadeus]

Read the scripture carefully and with great thought Jay, then think strongly on the question asked with this scripture in mind.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Yes, this is what the man of flesh is as a result of what Adam did in the garden. But then came Jesus onto the scene and into the hearts of people through the Holy Spirit...

Romans 3:10
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

So then who was being called righteous by the psalmist here?

"For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish." Psalm 1:6

Consider what Solomon wrote here:

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

If our paths are directed by the Lord always, will be not be righteous?

Romans 3:19
Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

If it is impossible to have any righteousness of our own before God, why did He tell anyone to "go and sin no more"? He may as well have told a dead man to swim the ocean. It's not possible for anyone to be sinless, even after we are saved, much less before! In Luke 18:27 Jesus says "what is impossible with man, is possible with God".

Not impossible, for as Jesus knew and as we should know, we could have, and some of us do have, "Christ in you, the hope of glory" [Col 1:27]

By the "even after we are saved" are you not denying the power of God to do the impossible? Are you saying that the scriptures lied or that God is a liar?

The only way anyone is saved is by the power of God through faith alone. The gospel is the power of God to everyone that believes (Romans 1:16). When a believer trusts Christ as Savior, that believer who was "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1) is "quickened together with Christ". They are spiritually made alive, and are made one spirit with the Lord (1 Cor. 6:17). God doesn't try to teach a dead man how to be sinless, he removes the man from his sin through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is spiritual baptism, not of water. We are "born again" into Christ. He gives life to us by being made one with Him.

But... you are saying that God in us is powerless to stop our flesh from sinning. When you say that are you not limiting God as the Israelites in the wilderness limited God by their continuous rebellions?

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

I would say if we do not stop sinning once we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit, it is because we have quenched the Holy Spirit in us:

"1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit." I Thess 5:19

Salvation to eternal life isn't what we can do for Him, but trusting in what He has done for us. When we trust Him, we are saved at that instant for all eternity (Col. 1:12-14). Take a few minutes and read all of Ephesians 2. Think about what verses 13-18 are telling you. Salvation is "in Christ Jesus" and by faith in His blood, believers are made one with Him. Salvation isn't about you or I becoming sinless, it's about being made sinless through being made one with Christ. We couldn't possibly make ourselves acceptable, so believers are "made accepted in the beloved", receiving His righteousness!

"Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:" Col 1:12-14

Our redemption is through his blood, but where and what is his blood? The Life is in the Blood. For the carnal body it is that red fluid of which each of us has a few pints. But even that carnal blood of Jesus did not give real Life to us. The Blood that gives us Real Life is the Holy Spirit:

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

Jesus paid the price on Calvary of death for the forgiveness of our sins, but that only opened the Way to Life. It did not give Life. Jesus spilled his red blood of the carnal man, but He only opened up the Door to Life which became available to us here:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance." Acts 2:2-4

And Peter spoke to them clarifying what was happening:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:" Acts 2:16-17

Not his physical blood, but his Spirit, the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a man of flesh and blood like we are. As a man the difference between him and us was that he was an acceptable sacrifice. [We who had sinned and were dead were not.] Spiritually He had more yet to offer us by pouring out His Spirit upon all flesh. This was the Holy Spirit or the Holy Ghost. This was to be the Life blood of the Body of Christ, so each part [the new or inner man of each of us] of the new Body of Christ could be connected to the other and to the Head, which was Jesus.

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." Eph 2:13-18

With His flesh He paid the price that we, all of us, owed, but that only just balanced the scale. We moved from a minus [negative] balance [how much Life we possessed] up to zero in the eyes of God. We were still dead spiritually. We still needed to have Life and now we could qualify for Life for the debt of sin was gone. Until Jesus had paid our debt that was not possible. The gate to the Garden wherein was the Tree of Life was closed to dead people.

Life is in the Holy Spirit, the Blood of the Body of Christ. The Body of Christ was NOT the body that was crucified. That was only the Head. We, if we will are to be the Body of Christ, again connected to each other and to Jesus by the Holy Spirit, the Life Blood.

 

[Helen]

@amadeus ...Another excellent post here with much food for thought.
I must be getting old and dull in the Spirit...I need to sharpen up.
When reading the posts I saw no disharmony in any of the posts! I must go back and reread that last few posts...I must keep the old grey-cells alive of my brain will turn into mush.
Good posts and interesting ones here from all.

 

[Helen]

@Godssrvr & @Jay Ross ( @amadeus )

Is not the seeming difference being that one is writing from the perspective of our position in Christ...while the other is addressing our walk in Christ?

Both positions are correct....for us to finish our course we must walk in both. We can never overcome (we would get discouraged) if we don't see and have the faith of our position...while on the other hand if we just "faith-it" hoping that it is enough and acceptable with no walk in righteousness to accompany our 'position'... We will at the end, be of all men most miserable.
Not either or, but Both!

 

[Jay Ross]

Oh, how the "NEW COVENANT THEOLOGY" has corrupted God's Salvation offer to all.

Jesus came preaching salvation for all mankind, which he refurbished with His death on the Cross. Jesus taught that a scribe, who is trained in the things of the Kingdom of God, will bring out of his treasury something that has now been refurbished, yet has been for all of mankind from the beginning of time. This is God's Salvation covenant with all of mankind, which has been in play since the day Adam was created.

Sadly, we have become saddled with the OLD Covenant and the NEW Covenant which is the labels to describe the older for of the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant which was entered into by Israel at Mt Sinai but in under 40 days they had rebelled against and had reverted back to worshipping Idols. Now, when God redeems the people from the Nation of Israel in our near future he will make like new again the original Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's Possession among the nations Covenant with one or two small tweets to bring it in line with the newer method of redemption for all of mankind. We know it is the same covenant as the original Mt Sinai covenant because God makes reference to which covenant that he is making like new again with the nation of Israel. With the adoption of the "NEW COVENANT" theology, we have become burdened with a new set of "pharisaical laws" which we Christians must now follow to be "saved" according to this new covenant theology.

I remember years ago being at an "impartation meeting" in which the Holy Spirit was being imparted to the wider congregation by those who had the "gift" by the laying on of hands and prayer, that the only sign of the person receiving a touch of the holy spirit was for them to fall down onto the floor. If they did not, then they were often pushed so that they did fall. There was no allowance for the person receiving the impartation of the HS to soar like an eagle in the heavens communing with God. That was not how things were done. There was a set "protocol" for the accomplishment of the impartation of the HS. I remember having to intervene in a meeting in another location/town and suggest to the "prayer" to let the person soar in the spirit with God. When the prayer did this there was no more struggling to impose the "law" onto the other person and God's glory was received by both the people in this prayer huddle.

Now Christ is the mediator of the newer form of the covenant with Israel of the Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation and God's Possession Among the Nations Covenant but He came first to preach about the Salvation Covenant to the Nation of Israel and not the "NEWER Covenant" which was to be entered into much later, in our very near future, maybe within the next 20 - 30 years.

As God's witnesses to how people can have a working personal relationship with God, we are not to limit God in how He will draw and then minister to an individual to receive the gift of the Salvation Covenant from Him. Are there certain terms and conditions applicable to God's Salvation Covenant? Yes there are, but these terms and conditions are entered into fully as a person grows in their relationship with God.

As a disciple of God/Jesus are there certain "terms, protocols and condition" for us to witness God's Salvation Covenant to others? Yes there are. We are to show/witness God's Love to all people in drawing them to God/Jesus. How do we do that? That is a topic for another thread to present material on what the protocols are for "Christians" to witness God's love to others.

Shalom

 

[Godssrvr]

while on the other hand if we just "faith-it" hoping that it is enough and acceptable with no walk in righteousness to accompany our 'position'... We will at the end, be of all men most miserable.

If we just "faith-it", we will have trusted His grace, rather than our walk. Man's dilemma is this......we have no righteousness, but demands perfect righteousness. God demands His children be without sin, just as perfect as He is in order for Him to justly grant eternal life with Him. That perfect righteousness comes only by faith in Him. No effort on our part will satisfy Him. To be saved, all our trust must be on Him. Please read the scripture references, especially the one I copy/pasted on the page.

Romans 3:19-28 Romans 4:3-8 Romans 4:13-16

Romans 5:17-19
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[Godssrvr]

Oh, how the "NEW COVENANT THEOLOGY" has corrupted God's Salvation offer to all.

No one has ever been saved without receiving His righteousness by faith. To trust in our own righteousness is to spend eternity in hell. Our faith must be that Jesus Christ paid our sin debt on the cross, and delivered us from the power of darkness by His blood. To trust our own works of righteousness is futile, which is why I showed you God said we have no righteousness. It must be His righteousness imputed by faith. Study the scripture He has given us from His Word to learn the truth. Much of it has been given in this discussion.

 

[Godssrvr]

Yes, this is what the man of flesh is as a result of what Adam did in the garden. But then came Jesus onto the scene and into the hearts of people through the Holy Spirit...

My comments have been toward how we become this new creature, not how we walk in the flesh. We have to come to Christ in faith before there is any change in us by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Helen]

@Godssrvr ...Thanks...I am 'all grace'....but I will have to 'stick' with what I posted.
In my book, grace has accountability.. living in grace has a leash...=Love.
Grace gives us the freedom to be bound to Him because of love.

I am 98% with you...but our 'feet' must match our spiritual position. We walk in the Spirit = righteousness that Jesus purchased for us.
The two, position and walk, must agree. That is how I see it.

 

[Jay Ross]

No one has ever been saved without receiving His righteousness by faith. To trust in our own righteousness is to spend eternity in hell. Our faith must be that Jesus Christ paid our sin debt on the cross, and delivered us from the power of darkness by His blood. To trust our own works of righteousness is futile, which is why I showed you God said we have no righteousness. It must be His righteousness imputed by faith. Study the scripture He has given us from His Word to learn the truth. Much of it has been given in this discussion.

Once again you are missing what I have written. Christ came preaching a Salvation Covenant message. He did not preach in any way shape or form. a "New Covenant" message as many try to label it. With all due respect, the "New(er) Covenant" is with respect to the Kingdom of Priest and a Holy Nation, and God's Possession among the Nations Covenant, which is still a near future event, probably within the next 20-30 years time. It is a necessity with respect to God having a Kingdom of Priests and a Holy Nation as His possession among the nations, for the time of the Great harvest of Souls during the Millennium Age.

With respect, if you would use your laughing matter, you would understand that what I am writing is true. We are to go out and preach the Salvation Message to all the people of the earth. We are to become the salt/yeast/etc. to help in the growing of God's Everlasting Kingdom here on the earth during the Millennium Age. Also with respect, has your study of the word actually enlightened you with the truth. If you had all of the truth, you would have understood that we are actually on the same page within the Salvation Covenant message.

Shalom

 

[Godssrvr]

but our 'feet' must match our spiritual position

With respect, that is the popular thought, but it isn't scripture truth. God says eternal life is freely given by His grace through faith in Christ, not by our feet matching our position. If that were the case, none would be saved. We have to be perfect, and we can't even be "good". Grace is either free or it isn't grace. Believers will have their works judged at the Judgment Seat of Christ. There will be rewards given and rewards lost, but the foundation of Christ will always remain. Romans 11:6 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

I understand some are concerned that there could be people who think they can just repeat a few words and be saved. Scripture says faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Someone must hear the truth having it revealed by the Holy Spirit. It's only under these conditions that one can make a decision to receive Christ as their Savior. So the drunk who laughingly says "I believe, come save me God" but never having the truth of God's Word revealed to him isn't saved. Neither is the person who hears a false gospel of faith + works, because they have not heard and believed the truth of the gospel. The Holy Spirit will reveal the truth if the truth is heard from the Word, but most today are hearing "another gospel", which is not another. Galatians 1:8-9

Romans chapters 3-5 teaches nothing can be added to grace, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. Anything else is a false gospel that has no power of salvation. If I believe I'm only saved if I live for Christ, my trust is in Christ plus how I live. That's why Philippians 3:2-10 is such a powerful example of true repentance. Paul had considered any of his own qualifications as worthless in order to "win Christ". We have to see ourselves the same way and trust Christ alone.

I have no idea who has believed and who hasn't. I think it's impossible to know if someone is saved even if you know them personally. I just try to make sure the truth of scripture is presented. The bible teaches when we hear the truth from the Word and believe, we have at that moment been regenerated and have become the "new Creature" in Christ. With that understood, you can recognize how our "walk" in this life cannot be factored in. God knows who has believed the truth and who hasn't. He doesn't have to wait to make sure they "truly believed", a phrase many use in pride. Like I said before, if our walk was a factor, none of us could be saved. God demands a perfect walk, and only Jesus has ever done that. Would we rather our salvation be based on our walk, or His? Romans 5:17-19

Written with love and respect.

 

[Godssrvr]

The new creature is not trying to be saved, the new creature has been saved.

Colossians 1:12-14
12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

[bbyrd009]

We have to come to Christ in faith before there is any change in us by the Holy Spirit.

nice. fear is not faith