Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[bbyrd009]

You know what?
To clear the air, why don't you give us your personal statement of faith so we can better understand where you are coming from.
Maybe that word Christian under your name needs to be modified.
Maybe you're really a hyper-Christian.

better to let others label oneself, i think. i'll be whatever you call me, ok. I'm leaning toward "Yahwist" right now, personally, but then who ever gives an unbiased label to themselves anyway?

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you saying, a man has to AGAIN DECIDE to believe?

well, you def need to die, daily i guess right. So yes. i do not believe that one becomes regenerated after a little altar working, or that some switch gets thrown when we imagine or say that we have got "saved."

 

[bbyrd009]

How so? The man already GAVE his LIFE to God to KEEP the man IN faith, which God does with His indwelling Power.

iow "God could not possibly allow me to believe in any 'strong delusion,' no matter what choice i make next."
?
then who are the twice sons of hell, or those afflicted by seven worse spirits?
these all set out to become "believers," see, these are those

 

[Taken]

you can change your mind whenever you like though, i guess

Of course you can CHANGE YOUR MIND.

I tried to stress, maybe not enough.

A mind has its own thoughts.
A heart has its own thoughts.

Of course one (mind) knows the thoughts of its own (Heart).

God does not accept the mans MINDS thoughts as a confession of Belief.

God does accept the mans HEARTS thoughts as a confession of Belief.

"IF" a man is walking down the aisle, say, for an alter call, and raising his hands, and all the amen brother, yeah, yeah, Confessing to Lord "with His minds thoughts" of Belief....

Wasted effort. God IS NOT LISTENING!
Nor will Gods gift of Salvation and Quickening be given that man.

No doubt...MANY have done that....
And then sometime afterward proclaim...
They were saved, and now have changed their Mind, and do not believe.

ERROR. They participated in the "ceremony", alter call, gave lip service, perhaps even being baptized in water.... But they were never saved.

They are an example of a man going through the motions, before witnesses, paying lip service, ooh, ooh, amen, getting a congratulations, baptized in water...oooh rah;

Problem is:
God was no part of that.
God does not look into a mans MIND.
God does look into a mans HEART.

A mans mind that is confessing Belief to the Lord.....IS MOOT.
He may FOOL other men; but He will not FOOL God.

Specifically...read;

Rom 8:7
....the carnal MIND is AGAINST God

Rom 10:9
"IF" (the condition) thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus...
AND
(Continuing the condition of "IF")
Believe in thine HEART that (condition) God hath raised him from the death,
Thou shalt ("THEN" the result for effecting the condition of "IF") BE (a new condition) SAVED (the RESULT of IF - THEN).

your "permanent" sounds like "dead" to me?

How so?
Body becomes crucified WITH Christ.
...is a voluntary giving of ones body to the Lord...Which is become sanctified and justified TO BE RAISED to forever life.

The Soul is restored, and saved, kept In forever life with the Lord.

The spirit is quickened, ie brought into life, that shall never die, and forever be with the Lord.

i mean, i'm still changing my mind, at least

It's not the mind that is concerning.
It is the heart.

And to speak to that briefly.
Every man has absolute truths he believes;

Examples of your Heartful truth...
You name, Love for your parents, what you look like, people you love, where you live, how old you are, etc.
You have absolute things that are your truths.

Now your MIND on the other hand...also knows your truths....BUT CAN conjour up deceit....trickery....conniving;
Speak a fake name to deceive.
Lie about your age to deceive.
Claim you are not married, but are, to deceive.
Promise to pay for something, when you know you can't.
Say you will do something, when you know you can't keep that commitment.

Stuff like that.

The MIND is always gathering new information, and what it believed one day...well the thought CHANGE and the next day may be completely against what it believed the day before....

The Heart on the other hand is where a man keeps his truth. (His natural truth IS his natural spirit)
He can share it, or keep is completely to himself. (Except God also knows). He can claim to another, "oh from the bottom of his heart", what he is saying is true, true, true....and maybe so...or maybe is just paying lip service....in an attempt to fool another, by introducing "the heart" as where his thought is coming from.

Someone naive, may fall for that.
While an other, may know his character, and not believe him. Or know his character, and believe him.

Humans make judgements/determinations all the time about others....On the whole of a man; the things they say, their consistency, their behavior, whether or not being CAUGHT in deceit is no big deal or bothersome to them; things like that.

It is tricky in a civil court room...because in the heat of an argument a man could say, touch me again and I'll kill you...Well if the man ends up dead...evidence shows the comment...and thus suspicion...and precisely why Character witnesses give testimony.
Simply meaning we all say things, with no intent to proceed...but in a civil court; the judge and jury are strangers to the person, and understanding can be meager.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

Oh, and by the way, if you call me a liar one ,more time, I'll start giving it back to you
I want you to know, I'm not a loser

I've never called anybody here a "liar", so I don't know why you're making this false accusation.

Now, with that said - I look forward to reading your interpretation of James 14:22 . . .

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

James 2:14-22;
"What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?"
This is both a false profession of faith and a neglect of duty.
Check James 4:17;

"Can such a faith save him?"
This refers to our spiritual relationship with God.

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food?
If one of you says to him "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
This has to do with heartlessness, selfishness, pitilessness, and inconsistency.
Read James 3:10-12;

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Works prove faith.

Verse 18, the most misunderstood verse of the whole passage.
But someone will say, you have faith, I have deeds.
What is the writer really trying to say?
Could it have a dual meaning?
Did he mean to have a dual meaning?
How can we be sure?

The first thought to mind is that someone is claiming they are a Christian by doing nothing to show it.
Then James says I do good deeds to show my faith, such as feeding and clothing the poor, etc...

Everything to this point is are physical good deeds.
But it continues.
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that - and shudder.

Now the passage has changed to include spiritual warfare.
For no demon has ever been accused of doing good works.

What do demons have to do with good works.
The spiritual side of this says, the work of God is this, to believe in the one he sent.
How does that bring us back to verse 18?
The one who says he believes without good works is the one who is not saved.
His belief reached his mind as does the demons, but never reached his heart so that he would want to do good works.

After Abraham offered his son, in verse 23 it says "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God's friend."
So we see that people are righteous by what we believe, and are justified by what we do. verse 24

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

better to let others label oneself, i think. i'll be whatever you call me, ok. I'm leaning toward "Yahwist" right now, personally, but then who ever gives an unbiased label to themselves anyway?

In other words, you don't know what you believe.
And you show just that in your posts.

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words, you don't know what you believe.
And you show just that in your posts.

well, i would examine what "beliefs" really mean to most people, i mean aren't they really "requirements" now? "Belief" implies that there is room for misunderstanding, or higher knowledge, right? Who really holds this opinion about their beliefs?

i find that most ppls "beliefs" center on things that happened in the past, or might happen in the future; and despite this, their "beliefs" seem quite set in cement. So i would have to ask you to further define what you mean by "beliefs" here i guess, bc i don't know what happened in the past, and i don't know what will happen in the future, either. I believe that i will reap what i sow, if that helps

 

[bbyrd009]

In other words, you don't know what you believe.
And you show just that in your posts.

isn't that why they are called "beliefs?" Because we do not know them for sure?
guess not, huh? Then why call them beliefs?

 

[Grams]

Eph.2;
8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Every one thinks I post this to much.......... well , I am praying some one who is not saved
will finally get the meaning of this and become saved....... To many people believe they can
loose there salvation........ no you can not........ you only loose it if you were not saved
and do not understand.... What JESUS did for our sins....... JESUS has no sins, it was
done for us.... Upon belief we want to do our best.......

 

[Taken]

well, you def need to die, daily i guess right. So yes. i do not believe that one becomes regenerated after a little altar working, or that some switch gets thrown when we imagine or say that we have got "saved."

God is Patient. He allows men time to grow, mature, become familiar with themselves, before they hear about a God they can NOT see.

God is also QUICK. Ever notice a salesman..
Tells you about a product, gives you the information, how it works, what to expect, warranties, etc. Then once you say OK...
They QUICKLY produce the PAPER, for you to sign, and QUICKY retrieve it from you once you sign??

Your signing is your Agreement to abide by the TERMS.

It is similar when dealing with God.
He doesn't drag you and make you do anything. He doesn't even drag you to the "showroom floor". He disperses, sends out information (ie His Word).
YOU, can choose to go hear, believe, reject, wonder, question, deny, walk away, or keep hearing.

ONCE YOU, call on the Lord and say....OK, Yes, from my heart I believe.

He IS QUICK to change you.

DIE, Death, Dead. Like most things...have duel meanings.

One meaning is CARNAL/Natural.
One meaning is Spiritual.

You are quite familiar with the carnal.
Dead body's of men, dead animals, dead plants, dead trees...

It is simply SOMETHING that once had life in it...now no longer has life in it. Simple.

However Spiritual death is different.
It does not depend on an existing PHYSICAL LIFE, for Spiritual Life or Spiritual Death to exist.

For example;
A natural born man, born physically alive.
IS born Spiritually DEAD.

Spiritually DEAD, is that which IS alive, Has been alive...but which IS separated from God.

A man WHO is confessing to God...is basically SIGNING on the LINE.
We don't literally sign our name on a paper.
We GIVE our permission BY our Word.
When we say, YES, we believe in our heart.
That IS our Word.

And the Lord QUICKLY acts, when a man give HIM, their word of YES.

We are not OBSERVING with our EYES what He is doing........no more than you are SEEING what a salesman is doing when he takes your signed contract and disappears to an other office to record the transaction.

God has a RECORD also. He makes the changes within the man; then there IS a recording made on the mans behalf.
Testimony OF the man, made IN Heaven.
The mans name entered into...
The Lambs book of Life...
(Which will come in handy as the record of the Names of Men, He shall redeem.
Ie. His Chruch, His People).
Also...every good work the man DOES, to glorify Gods name ON earth...is testified of in Heaven...which is the record of evidence, such man shall receive rewards for his efforts of glorifying Gods name on earth.

The spiritual death of a man...is the condition a man is naturally born in...and God absolutely will allow that body to physically DIE, separated from Him (spiritually)
Or
The spiritual death of a man crucified with Christ...IS a spiritual death, God shall restore to a forever living and glorified condition
BECAUSE the man voluntarily GAVE His life TO God to change it, wholly, and to holy.

You can word search WHOLE, in Scripture.
That is speaking of the Lord making a man WHOLE....body, soul, spirit.
Prepared for eternal spiritual life with Him.

You can read of Pauls accounts...he is speaking of yipes...we are changed, but hey man open your eyes, can't you still see your physical body of sin...aren't you appalled.

Yep, we still have a natural body and natural eyes. They have their own purpose (which is another discussion).
However, what we can see Naturally, is MOOT, compared to what God has already ACCOUNTED.

God does not have "natural eyes". He already Sees us as His work accomplished IN US, made Whole.
We are the ones in "waiting".
Many souls waiting in heaven for their body's to be changed.
Waiting to see who of our family and friends shall become saved.
Waiting to see our new bodies.
Waiting to see God as He is.
Waiting for Judgement Day.
Waiting for rewards, crowns.
Waiting to observe an earth without corruption.
Waiting to be in company of others without, sadness, depression, diseases, pain, etc.
Waiting to see what we shall do forever.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

well, i would examine what "beliefs" really mean to most people, i mean aren't they really "requirements" now? "Belief" implies that there is room for misunderstanding, or higher knowledge, right? Who really holds this opinion about their beliefs?

i find that most ppls "beliefs" center on things that happened in the past, or might happen in the future; and despite this, their "beliefs" seem quite set in cement. So i would have to ask you to further define what you mean by "beliefs" here i guess, bc i don't know what happened in the past, and i don't know what will happen in the future, either. I believe that i will reap what i sow, if that helps

That's a belief in the past and the future
What are your present beliefs?

 

[Taken]

iow "God could not possibly allow me to believe in any 'strong delusion,' no matter what choice i make next."
?

Strong delusions, apply to those separated from God.

Inanutshell... IF one truly desires to believe, they do something about it. Hear His word, read His word, ask for Him to intervene, show them the way. Ask and seek and ye shall find.

If one chooses to spend his time MINDFULLY trying to decide IF he does or doesn't believe, he will BE in his own delusion of his own wavering mind.

If one has absolutely mindfully decided AGAINST God... it is telling God what that man wants. Ask and seek and ye shall find.
God is not a respector of persons.

Everyone will get what they want.
You want to be WITH God, He will make it happen.
You want to be WITHOUT God, He will make it happen.....and that typically involves hardening a mans heart...sending the man strong delusions...so He can not believe.

Gods Grace. Ask and you shall receive.
God is Just. Doesn't matter who you are...
He will give you what you asked for.

then who are the twice sons of hell, or those afflicted by seven worse spirits?
these all set out to become "believers," see, these are those

Scriptural reference? Book, Chapt, verse?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

How about just trying to present some Scriptural proof for your false doctrine, hmmm?
Use ANY Bible you want - but give me some proof . . .

No I do not present my doctrine, nor what Ive said is false.
I have more than once given you Scriptures.
It was your choice to go read, verify, believe, not believe or ignore them. You deal with that.
Not my responsibility to understand scripture for you.

Another

load of un-Biblical bunk.

NEITHER John, nor the Holy Spirit who inspired him to write the following are liars .

The BUNK you claim, is you pretending someone said John was a liar, when no one, claimed that.

1 John 1:8
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is NOT in us.

What is your point of repeatedly presenting this random scripture to the point of ad nauseam?

 

[aspen]

Please tell me something.
These Calvinists, and these hyper-Calvinists, what type of church do they attend?
Are they Methodists, or Presbyterians, or what?

Hypercalvanists are usually members of Reformed churches, but they can be found in many other conservative churches, as well. Presbyterians are rooted in Calvinism, but the largest group - presbyterian USA has backed away from Calvinism - they are liberal.

Methodism was started by Wesley

 

[GodsGrace]

James 2:14-22;
"What good is it my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds?"
This is both a false profession of faith and a neglect of duty.
Check James 4:17;

"Can such a faith save him?"
This refers to our spiritual relationship with God.

Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food?
If one of you says to him "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
This has to do with heartlessness, selfishness, pitilessness, and inconsistency.
Read James 3:10-12;

In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
Works prove faith.

Verse 18, the most misunderstood verse of the whole passage.
But someone will say, you have faith, I have deeds.
What is the writer really trying to say?
Could it have a dual meaning?
Did he mean to have a dual meaning?
How can we be sure?

The first thought to mind is that someone is claiming they are a Christian by doing nothing to show it.
Then James says I do good deeds to show my faith, such as feeding and clothing the poor, etc...

Everything to this point is are physical good deeds.
But it continues.
"You believe that there is one God. Good! Even demons believe that - and shudder.

Now the passage has changed to include spiritual warfare.
For no demon has ever been accused of doing good works.

What do demons have to do with good works.
The spiritual side of this says, the work of God is this, to believe in the one he sent.
How does that bring us back to verse 18?
The one who says he believes without good works is the one who is not saved.
His belief reached his mind as does the demons, but never reached his heart so that he would want to do good works.

After Abraham offered his son, in verse 23 it says "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness, and he was called God's friend."
So we see that people are righteous by what we believe, and are justified by what we do. verse 24

Great post!

 

[BreadOfLife]

[

No I do not present my doctrine, nor what Ive said is false.
I have more than once given you Scriptures.
It was your choice to go read, verify, believe, not believe or ignore them. You deal with that.
Not my responsibility to understand scripture for you.

Look, Einstein - quoting Scriptures OUT of context is no better than spewing gibberish.
When you pervert the meaning of Scripture - you wind up in a big ball of confused doctrine - like YOURS.
[

The BUNK you claim, is you pretending someone said John was a liar, when no one, claimed that.
What is your point of repeatedly presenting this random scripture to the point of ad nauseam?

You render BOTH John and the Holy Spirit liars when you arrogantly assert that you don't sin.
Calling people "dunces" and judging their souls is committing sin only you're too spiritually prideful to see . . .

 

[aspen]

[
Look, Einstein - quoting Scriptures OUT of context is no better than spewing gibberish.
When you pervert the meaning of Scripture - you wind up in a big ball of confused doctrine - like YOURS.
[
You render BOTH John and the Holy Spirit liars when you arrogantly assert that you don't sin.
Calling people "dunces" and judging their souls is committing sin only you're too spiritually prideful to see . . .

Tell me this post is not about your ego, BOL.....

 

[BreadOfLife]

Tell me this plst is not about your ego, BOL.....

It's not about ego at all.
It's about correcting somebody who is perverting the Word of God and trying to deceive others - like he has deceived himself.

Your problem with it is simply the fact that the post came from me.

 

[amadeus]

@Taken

Amadeus said: "If on the other hand we quench the Spirit and follow the "lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life", we will then be led to sin again... in spite of the sealing. Quenching the Holy Spirit in us is in effect breaking the seal.

Taken said:
Disagree.

Jews had laws. Not doing the laws was a sin.
What applied to the Jews did not apply to Gentiles. Yet we have a mix of both being taught something new (NT), while making references to their old ways, ie Jews (OT), and Gentiles, (idols and such).

A man saved and born again IS Sealed, once and forever, as the Lord repeatedly says Forever.

A man so saved and born again...HAS the Spirit of God; the Spirit of Gods TRUTH IN HIM.

Quenching the Holy Spirit - IS a man having first hand, Direct communication with God, with His absolute Truth.......BUT the man is doing nothing with it.
He isn't speaking it, sharing it, teaching it, ...
ZIP.

IOW - the man is doing NOTHING with this great gift God has given the man.

The man IS silent, keeping quite, oppressing, quenching....the Truth of the Holy Spirit.

And the mans silence, IS grievous TO the Holy Spirit.

It has nothing to do with breaking the SEAL of a mans salvation or quickened spirit.
Nor anything to do with the mans NAME in the Lambs book of life.
Nor is it a sin.

Inanutshell it is disappointing to God, for Him to have given a man great gifts to truthfully testify of the Lord, ACCORDING to the Lords truth....and the man isn't.

That is quenching the Holy Spirit, and they were being warned and instructed against leaving their great gift dormant.

God Bless,
Taken

I see some possible shades of difference from where I stand and what you are saying, but it may be more semantics than real differences. There is certainly a point a person can attain to where he is saved and will never go back, but he may not realize it when he has attained it. Of course, God knows if and where it is and He knows when a person has attained it. Unless God has given us a particular knowledge about another person we would not know for certain when that other person had attained it.

The part I underlined is remains a question in my own mind. Will a person definitely know immediately when he has attained to salvation and that he will definitely never go back?