Does your new nature rob you of the freedom to make the wrong choices?
Meet my little friend O-sas. He NEVER makes the wrong choices!
Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.
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Meet my little friend O-sas. He NEVER makes the wrong choices!
Nancy
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Epostle1Does your new nature rob you of the freedom to make the wrong choices?
Meet my little friend O-sas. He NEVER makes the wrong choices!
"Does your new nature rob you of the freedom to make the wrong choices?"
No sir, of course not. On the contrary, my new nature causes me to want the will of God and nothing less...the new man does not desire the old ways. And in fact, causes me/us to want to make right choices.
What a bizarre question.
(Yet revealing how your religion operates).
Meet my friend and Savior Jesus. He NEVER makes mistakes.
ONCE SAVED; PERFECTED IN CHRIST , according to the Lord, NOT according to the world.
Heb 10:14
FOR BY ONE offering He hath perfected them that ARE SANCTIFIED.
Heb 10:14
FOR BY ONE offering He hath perfected them that ARE SANCTIFIED.
BreadOfLife
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Yup - as long as we continue to COOPERATE with His grace and don't walk away . . .
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?
Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.
Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .
1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.
2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.
1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.
Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot "blot out" a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.
Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God "take away" somebody’s share of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.
That's evading the question. We all want to make the right choices. We all want to be good Christians. We can be morally certain of our salvation, but nobody can be 100% infallibly certain, unless it's by divine revelation. That's the point St. Paul makes repeatedly.Epostle1
"Does your new nature rob you of the freedom to make the wrong choices?"
No sir, of course not. On the contrary, my new nature causes me to want the will of God and nothing less...the new man does not desire the old ways. And in fact, causes me/us to want to make right choices.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Do you have these repeated quotes of Paul saying these things?
I do...but he means something altogether different IMO. God cannot lie. do you know the 1st thing I lost when I got saved? The fear of death. "Oh death, where is your sting"
1 John 5:12-13
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.
Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God
Hebrews 7:25
Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
John 6:47
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
Romans 8:38-39
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Yes. I'd like to see those verses too.
I can't think of any.
Do you mean for the future? For right now?
That's a benefit of salvation in the here and now. It says nothing about assurance of salvation.
"may know" does not mean "will know".
That doesn't mean we can stop persevering.
Why would Jesus intervene if salvation is assured?
[/quote]John 10:29
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.[/quote] That does not mean you can't walk out of the Fathers hand with your own free will. You are reading into the verse what isn't there..
Do not grieve is an instruction, it does not mean one can never grieve the Holy Spirit. Heb. 7:27, 9:12, 26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 – Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
This is not a guarantee that one will always believe.
Agreed. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. It does not say we cannot separate ourselves, or we would have no free will. If we have no free will, we cannot love. If we cannot love, then we are not made in the image and likeness of God.
We are not Guaranteed Salvation; We Hope For Salvation
Heb. 7:27, 9:12,26;10:10; 1 Pet 3:18 – Jesus died once and redeemed us all, but we participate in the application of His redemption by the way in which we live.
Heb. 9:12 – Christ’s sacrifice secured our redemption, but redemption is not the same thing as salvation. We participate in and hope for salvation. Our hope in salvation is a guarantee if we are faithful to Christ to the end. But if we lose hope and fail to persevere, we can lose our salvation. Thus, by our own choosing (not by God’s doing), salvation is not a certainty. While many Protestant churches believe in the theology of “once saved, always saved,” such a novel theory is not found in Scripture and has never been taught by the Church.
Rom. 5:2 – we rejoice in the “hope” (not the presumptuous certainty) of sharing the glory of God. If salvation is absolutely assured after accepting Jesus as Savior, why would Paul hope?
Rom. 5:5 – this “hope” does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. Our hope is assured if we persevere to the end.
Rom. 8:24 – this “hope” of salvation that Paul writes about is unnecessary if salvation is guaranteed. If salvation is assured, then why hope?
Rom. 10:1 – Paul prays that the Jews “may be saved.” Why pray if it’s guaranteed? Further, why pray unless you can mediate?
Rom. 12:12 – rejoice in your “hope” (not your certainty), be patient in tribulation, and be constant in prayer.
2 Cor. 3:12 – since we have a “hope” (not a certainty), we are very bold. We can be bold when we are in God’s grace and our persevering in obedient faith.
Gal. 5:5 – for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness.
Eph. 1:18 – that you may know what is the “hope” to which He has called you, what are the riches of His glorious inheritance.
Eph. 4:4 – there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one “hope” (not the one certainty) that belongs to your call.
Eph. 6:10-17 – Paul instructs the Ephesians to take the whole armor of God, the breastplate of righteousness, and the helmet of salvation, in order “to stand,” lest they fall. Paul does not give any assurance that the spiritual battle is already won.
Phil. 3:11 – Paul shares Christ’s sufferings so that “if possible” he may attain resurrection. Paul does not view his own resurrection as a certainty.
Phil. 1:20 – as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ.
Col. 1:5 – Paul refers to the “hope” (not guarantee) that Christ laid up for us in heaven.
Col. 1:23 – provided that you continue in the faith, not shifting from the “hope” of the gospel which you heard.
Col. 1:27 – to them God chose to make known His mystery, which is Christ in you, the “hope” (not the certainty) of His glory.
1 Thess. 1:3 – remembering before our God your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of “hope” in Jesus Christ.
1 Thess. 2:19 – for what is our “hope” or joy or crown of boasting before our Lord Jesus at his coming? Is it not you?
1 Thess. 5:8 – we must put on the helmet of “hope” (not of certainty) of salvation.
2 Thess. 2:16 – the Lord Jesus and God our Father who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good “hope” through grace.
1 Tim. 1:1 – Paul describes Christ Jesus as our “hope” (not our guarantee). We can reject Him and He will allow this.
1 Tim. 4:10 – Paul says we toil and strive because we have our “hope” (not our assurance) on the living God. This is not because God is unfaithful, but because we can be unfaithful. We toil and strive for our salvation.
1 Tim. 5:5 – she who is a real widow, and is left all alone, has set her “hope” (not her assurance) on God. Our hope is a guarantee only if we persevere to the end.
1 Tim. 5:15 – Paul writes that some have already strayed after satan, as God Himself tells us in 1 Tim. 4:1. They were on the right path, and then strayed off of it.
2 Tim. 2:10 – Paul endures for the elect so that they “may also obtain salvation.” This verse teaches us that even the “elect,” from the standpoint of human knowledge, have no guarantee of salvation.
Titus 1:2 – Paul says that he is in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. Paul knows that his hope is a guarantee if he perseveres, but his ability to choose sin over God makes his attainment of eternal life less than an absolute certainty until it is actually achieved.
Titus 2:13 – awaiting our blessed “hope,” the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:7 – Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life.
Heb. 3:6 – we are Christ’s house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our “hope” (not our certainty).
Heb. 6:11 – we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of “hope” (not certainty) until the end.
Heb. 6:18 – we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to seize the “hope” (not the certainty) that is set before us.
Heb. 6:19 – we have a “hope” that enters into the inner shrine behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone before us.
Heb. 7:19 – on the other hand, a better “hope” (not certainty) is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb. 10:23 – let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful.
Heb. 11:1 – now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven).
Heb. 12:1 – let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us.
Heb. 12:15 – see to it that no one fail to obtain the grace of God; that no root of bitterness spring up and cause trouble, and by it many become defiled.
James 1:12 – we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.
1 Peter 1:3 – by His mercy we have been born anew to a living “hope” through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead.
1 Peter 1:13 – set your “hope” (not assurance) fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
1 Peter 1:21 – through Him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead so that your faith and “hope” are in God.
1 Peter 2:2 – like newborn babes, long for spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. How can you grow up to something you already possess?
1 Peter 3:15 – always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the “hope” that is in you.
1 John 3:3 – and everyone who thus “hopes” in Him purifies himself as He is pure. These verses teach us that we must cooperate with God’s grace and persevere to the end to be saved. We can and do have a moral certitude of salvation if we persevere in faith, hope and love.
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/s...ot_Guaranteed_Salvation_We_Hope_For_Salvation
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Yes...I believe we will be growing and learning and experiencing His endless Creations, even in Heaven
What's it like to read the Gospel through the lens of works?
It sure can't be as fun as believers who are secure in their salvation.
really?.......
scripturecatholicdotcomI wouldn't know. "gospel of works", "works righteousness" "works salvation" are heresies. Good works in the grace of Christ has been explained to you 100 times. You lash at me with this "works" insult because your false Calvinoid invention cannot be defended, and you have been trying for months.
If OSAS is true, then Paul is a liar.It sure can't be as fun as believers who are secure in their salvation.
really?.......
I have dozens of references refuting OSAS, but if you won't accept my walls of Scripture, each with a brief exegesis, you won't accept anything.
https://www.scripturecatholic.com/salvation/
https://aleteia.org/2015/03/24/apologetics-101-is-once-saved-always-saved-in-the-bible/
https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/
http://newapologetics.com/once-saved-always-saved
http://www.bible.ca/cal-P-refutation.htm
That's resources for the readers. 2 of them are not Catholic so you can't accuse me of bias. I don't expect you read any of them anyway because they are a threat to your precious security blanket, made in Geneva.
You say you don't preach works salvation, but you deny OSAS. Do you not see the contradiction? Paul is not the liar here, and we all know where liars go don't we in Rev 21.....
Jhn 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Heb 6:16-20 People swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope set before us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
1Jo 1:10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.
1Jo 2:22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.
1Jo 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
- God bless
Denying OSAS does not automatically mean works salvation. You created a non sequitur fallacy, then you call it a contradiction.
Non sequitur, in formal logic, is an argument in which its conclusion does not follow from its premises. In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false, but the argument is fallacious because there is a disconnection between the premise and the conclusion. All invalid arguments are special cases of non sequitur. - wikedpedia
Yes it does. You don't believe the blood of Christ keeps you saved unless you do the list of chores on your list.
Helen
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Works salvation is saying that what God did through Jesus Christ on the cross ..was not enough.
When God saw Jesus on the cross, carrying all the weight of sin..
Isaiah 53 says- " He God, saw the travail of His soul Jesus, ...and was satisfied." The debt had been paid in full.
So what is our good works?
It is the outflowing of the Christ within. We do because we love...we do not do to earn something, or even keep something.
But we do, because we love Him...not to gain something.
When God saw Jesus on the cross, carrying all the weight of sin..
Isaiah 53 says- " He God, saw the travail of His soul Jesus, ...and was satisfied." The debt had been paid in full.
So what is our good works?
It is the outflowing of the Christ within. We do because we love...we do not do to earn something, or even keep something.
But we do, because we love Him...not to gain something.
JesusIsFaithful
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You can lose your point when you are applying wrong terms to that point.
Jesus has saved you when you had first believed in Him and that God had raised Him from the dead. That means the foundation laid by Jesus Christ can never be removed. That means His seal of adoption cannot be broken.
BUT a saved believer can build works on that foundation denying that they are saved when they are. A believer can deny the whole point of Jesus Christ being in us in thinking they are not saved yet or that they can lose their salvation at the risk of being denied by Him 2 Timothy 2:12 but even if they should stop believing in Him, He still abides ( 2 Timothy 2:13 )
It is all about resting in Him as our Savior that we are saved and now reconciled, we are to rest in Him as our Good Shepherd in all His promises to us in helping us to follow Him and walk in the light in living this reconciled relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ so that we may bear fruit and our joy may be full when the Bridegroom appears to receive us as a vessels of honor in His House which is in His honor & to His glory.
There are no prayers to Michael the Archangel because he is not in a position to answer those prayers. Neither is the Holy Spirit. Neither is Mary nor any other patron saint because this is the will of God is for the Son to answers those prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers; not Mary, not Michael the Archangel, not even the Holy Spirit, nor any other patron saint.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Nobody else can do it otherwise they would be label as a thief in according to His words. The same goes for being the means for salvation.
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
So don't let any one else come between you & the One that has died for you and has risen for you to hope in Him that you are saved for having believed in Him. You can pray to Jesus and the Father by Him so that when prayers are answered, the credit is not stolen by no other from Jesus as thanksgiving to the Father is in Jesus's name only and no other.
"Heb 13:8, post: 419110, member: 7302"Yes it does. You don't believe the blood of Christ keeps you saved unless you do the list of chores on your list."List of chores" we try to incorporate into our thinking and daily life:
Without the grace of Christ, without pre-existing salvation, it's just a "list of chores". We don't "earn" what is already there. Your insults have been corrected about a million times. Only the Holy Spirit can heal your blind prejudice, not forums.
Until then, your ignorance remains invincible.
JIF
You're super smart.
I can't believe you don't understand 2 Timothy 2:13!
It doesn't mean that even if we lose faith in Christ, He will remain faithful.
It means that God will remain faithful to HIMSELF. He decided to save humanity from the beginning and He will keep His word.
BUT, IF faith is necessary for salvation, then surely if we lose faith we also lose our salvation. We can't have it both ways.
I'm always amazed, TTYTT, at how the eternal security believers just totally IGNORE scripture that shows a person CAN lose salvation. There are many a few posts above.
I won't ask this, but it would be interesting if, once in a while, someone who believes in OSAS would exegete those verses.
If we could NOT lose our salvation, why did Paul speak so much as to HOW we are to behave? ONLY for the good it gets us in this life? It seems he makes it much more important than that.
There's no such thing as works salvation!
I don't know anyone on this forum who believes we are saved by works.
We do what we do because we love God.
We may be doing exactly the same things we did before ... or maybe not; maybe we're doing more. No matter.
The point is that good deeds are spoken of by Paul and others and they are necessary, for whatever reason we may be doing them.
This goes to obedience of faith. We have faith and so we obey.
We obey because of our faith. No one is denying this.
I can only repeat that I find this important because some churches are teaching "faith only". This means that you need to walk down the isle and accept Jesus as savior and then you go on your merry way and are saved.
This is wrong.
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