If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[brakelite]

@Naomi25 Good question, I will let scripture speak for itself.
KJV Revelation 18
Babylon Falls
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Ellen White said....
Revelation 18:1 - 5
Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God still in Babylon will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world; and it will accomplish its work. {GC 390}
Babylon the great is not only the Catholic church. It includes all the professed people of God and also all secular unbelievers who have joined with her out of conveniencece (mark in right hand) having failed to respond to the final warning to mankind regarding the three angels message of revelation 14:6-12
These messages don't come direct from angels, but angels are in charge of their delivery through the church. Those message are the gospel. Rejection of the gospel is the same for everyone . Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim. Rejection of Christ and his gospell is acceptance of Babylon.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is not my standards that matter, but the those of the ONE who will judge all of us .
I am hopeful that the saved will include not just most in the CC but most of humanity in general.



Yes! And that includes not just Catholics but all who have received a valid baptism.



Just myself currently.



Yes

Pax!

Mathew 7:13-14 Jesus said...
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

 

[GodsGrace]

No, what I meant was that God looks at both life and doctrine. You excluded doctrine. So did you read and study Revelation 1-3?

I've never read Revelation fully and I haven't studied it. I read Scott Hahn's book about it but he's Catholic and compared it to the Mass. I liked that because it made sense.
I know God looks at life.
Where does it say God looks at the doctrine we believe?
I can only repeat that if this is true, we're all going to the hot place.

 

[GodsGrace]

No, not a Catholic thing at all...just organized by the towns I think. But you would often see "Catholic" singles attending. As I grew up I just sort of "understood" that Catholics weren't 'real' Christians; as in, in no way did their actions reflect Christ in their life. It was quite baffling to me. It was only really after I grew up and spread my wings a bit that I got a bit better understand of that denomination, and realized that people who attended could be Christians, I just never really bumped into any when I was young.
Let me ask you a question, if I may. I know you believe that the RCC is ungodly. And that cleaving to her is embracing to the mark of the beast (forgive me if I don't get that exactly right). And in your previous posts you've made comments saying that the true Christians within her must "come out". What happens if they don't? What happens if they have decided to stay where they are to try and lead their friends and families, also Catholic, to Christ? They see that as their mission. In a sense we are all, in a sense, in a place we don't really belong, among people who view us as aliens and enemies. Do you believe these Christians would loose their salvation? Or is salvation assured through Christ, no matter what? No matter that sometimes Christians are perhaps short-sighted and make mistakes, or follow mistaken leadings?

If we all had to come out of the wrong church....
We'd have to then determine which one is the RIGHT church!!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 Good question, I will let scripture speak for itself.
KJV Revelation 18
Babylon Falls
1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Ellen White said....
Revelation 18:1 - 5
Revelation 18 points to the time when, as the result of rejecting the threefold warning of Revelation 14:6-12, the church will have fully reached the condition foretold by the second angel, and the people of God still in Babylon will be called upon to separate from her communion. This message is the last that will ever be given to the world; and it will accomplish its work. {GC 390}
Babylon the great is not only the Catholic church. It includes all the professed people of God and also all secular unbelievers who have joined with her out of conveniencece (mark in right hand) having failed to respond to the final warning to mankind regarding the three angels message of revelation 14:6-12
These messages don't come direct from angels, but angels are in charge of their delivery through the church. Those message are the gospel. Rejection of the gospel is the same for everyone . Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim. Rejection of Christ and his gospell is acceptance of Babylon.

Okay. I'm not sure I can agree with you in regards to the interpretation, but thanks for answering my question!

 

[Naomi25]

If we all had to come out of the wrong church....
We'd have to then determine which one is the RIGHT church!!

True! And, well...all these denominations are an earthly construct, really, helping us categorize ourselves and our individual interpretations. But in truth, the "Church" is Christ's, and no matter where we are found, he knows his own. I think when the time comes, that will matter more than which denomination proved "most correct".
I can't deny that I think it behooves us as Christians to be wise about which 'church' we attend, but as we have daily proof on this forum, so many people believe with all their hearts that they are being true and faithful to the word of God and his doctrines. I think we can only pray and act as we feel led by the Spirit on such things.

 

[brakelite]

True! And, well...all these denominations are an earthly construct, really, helping us categorize ourselves and our individual interpretations. But in truth, the "Church" is Christ's, and no matter where we are found, he knows his own. I think when the time comes, that will matter more than which denomination proved "most correct".
I can't deny that I think it behooves us as Christians to be wise about which 'church' we attend, but as we have daily proof on this forum, so many people believe with all their hearts that they are being true and faithful to the word of God and his doctrines. I think we can only pray and act as we feel led by the Spirit on such things.

Far be it for us to call anyone out of an apostate system without offering them an alternative. But just as we identify the apostate system through scripture, so may we identify the alternative in the same manner. However, if one is not willing to cleave to scripture in identifying one, it will prove impossible to cleave to scripture to identify the other. Once you compromise in determining error, how may you not compromise in determining truth?

 

[Nancy]

No, not a Catholic thing at all...just organized by the towns I think. But you would often see "Catholic" singles attending. As I grew up I just sort of "understood" that Catholics weren't 'real' Christians; as in, in no way did their actions reflect Christ in their life. It was quite baffling to me. It was only really after I grew up and spread my wings a bit that I got a bit better understand of that denomination, and realized that people who attended could be Christians, I just never really bumped into any when I was young.
Let me ask you a question, if I may. I know you believe that the RCC is ungodly. And that cleaving to her is embracing to the mark of the beast (forgive me if I don't get that exactly right). And in your previous posts you've made comments saying that the true Christians within her must "come out". What happens if they don't? What happens if they have decided to stay where they are to try and lead their friends and families, also Catholic, to Christ? They see that as their mission. In a sense we are all, in a sense, in a place we don't really belong, among people who view us as aliens and enemies. Do you believe these Christians would loose their salvation? Or is salvation assured through Christ, no matter what? No matter that sometimes Christians are perhaps short-sighted and make mistakes, or follow mistaken leadings?

Like GG, I too know many Catholics and it is where I came out of as I always was left empty and wanting spiritually. As far as them not being correct in all they do and teach, if a persons heart is true to the Lord, (like my Catholic grandma was) I can hardly believe she is NOT in heaven. My belief is, the hierarchy will be held to judgement as they KNOW better. If the Catholics themselves (congregants) know they are saved through Jesus Christ and nothing added, I say they are just fine but, that of course, is not up to me!

 

[Philip James]

Mathew 7:13-14 Jesus said...
The Narrow and Wide Gates

13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."

Rev 7:9

After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6in their hands.

 

[amadeus]

If we all had to come out of the wrong church....
We'd have to then determine which one is the RIGHT church!!

Or as we come out, simply keep our eyes on Jesus and follow Him to the end of our course.

 

[bbyrd009]

No, not a Catholic thing at all...just organized by the towns I think. But you would often see "Catholic" singles attending. As I grew up I just sort of "understood" that Catholics weren't 'real' Christians; as in, in no way did their actions reflect Christ in their life. It was quite baffling to me. It was only really after I grew up and spread my wings a bit that I got a bit better understand of that denomination, and realized that people who attended could be Christians, I just never really bumped into any when I was young.
Let me ask you a question, if I may. I know you believe that the RCC is ungodly. And that cleaving to her is embracing to the mark of the beast (forgive me if I don't get that exactly right). And in your previous posts you've made comments saying that the true Christians within her must "come out". What happens if they don't? What happens if they have decided to stay where they are to try and lead their friends and families, also Catholic, to Christ? They see that as their mission. In a sense we are all, in a sense, in a place we don't really belong, among people who view us as aliens and enemies. Do you believe these Christians would loose their salvation? Or is salvation assured through Christ, no matter what? No matter that sometimes Christians are perhaps short-sighted and make mistakes, or follow mistaken leadings?

nice, imo. questions are better than answers, and those are good Qs imo

 

[bbyrd009]

Far be it for us to call anyone out of an apostate system without offering them an alternative. But just as we identify the apostate system through scripture, so may we identify the alternative in the same manner. However, if one is not willing to cleave to scripture in identifying one, it will prove impossible to cleave to scripture to identify the other. Once you compromise in determining error, how may you not compromise in determining truth?

"dialectics" imo
actually "fruit," but in the context of your Q, dialectics. Bc truth is not Absolute; truth is a moving target. What is true now might shortly be false. Good News becomes knowledge that brings sorrow. the first to tell his side in court seems right, until another comes and cross examines him. If you dig a pit for others, you end up in it yourself. satan appears as an angel. Christ is omnipresent, but "we" are all waiting for Jesus to return.

("Welcome to Torah!" lol)

 

[amadeus]

...
Ellen White said....
Revelation 18:1 - 5
…
Babylon the great is not only the Catholic church. It includes all the professed people of God and also all secular unbelievers who have joined with her out of convenience … Rejection of the gospel is the same for everyone . Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Muslim. Rejection of Christ and his gospel is acceptance of Babylon.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." I Cor 14:33
And "confusion" equals Babylon and Babel. I know of some ministers who call everything outside of their group "Babylon" and every once in a while one of them is more honest than that and recognizes that there is Babylon in their group as well.

The only ones not in Babylon at all are those who have already overcome the world as did Jesus [John 16:33]. We have all been given to means to overcome the world of our own hearts. But... the road is still before us. Can we or will we make it to the end with Him? The answer lies within each of us. Jesus paid the price and provided a Way when there was no way.

"And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Gen 11:5-7

"But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be." James 3:8-10

 

[Nancy]

Or as we come out, simply keep our eyes on Jesus and follow Him to the end of our course.

And, that is the bottom line for me every time-eyes on Jesus...Trust in The Life and The Truth. He has not failed e yet! Praise His matchless Majestic Holy Name! Oh if only some could see the beauty of the simplicity of His Word...sigh.

 

[Enoch111]

Where does it say God looks at the doctrine we believe?

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Rev 2:15)
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1 Tim 4:13)
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4:16)

As to Scott Hahn, since he is an apologist for Roman Catholicism after leaving Protestantism, all you can expect from him is distortion of the truth. He wrote a book Hail Holy Queen:The Mother of God in the Word of God. Well, since Mary is neither the Queen of Heaven nor the Mother of God, you can see that he just promotes RCC nonsense.

 

[Marymog]

The Catholic church does not oppose error - it manufactures it with extreme prejudice. For example, please find me the Scripture that says we may by works obtain forgiveness that your Confessional supposedly affords, or that we must confess our sins to another sinful man who has probably just finished assaulting a young child (a recent PBS special expose on Catholicism told of a priest who EYE WITNESSED another priest get up from sexually abusing a child and dress himself and go immediately to officiate the eucharist) before sitting down in a Confessional as your advocate and intercessor.

BTW, where did I ever say the Catholic church can exist without a pope?

Which church does oppose error?

You have either twisted what The Church teaches or you are ignorant of what it teaches to your question about finding it in scripture is illogical.

You said the PAPACY began in 538 A.D.!! I may be misunderstanding what you are saying so I would like to clarify before I respond.

If the Papacy began in 538 AD, when did the Catholic Church begin??

Respectfully, Mary

 

[GodsGrace]

So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. (Rev 2:15)
Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. (1 Tim 4:13)
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. (1 Tim 4:16)

As to Scott Hahn, since he is an apologist for Roman Catholicism after leaving Protestantism, all you can expect from him is distortion of the truth. He wrote a book Hail Holy Queen:The Mother of God in the Word of God. Well, since Mary is neither the Queen of Heaven nor the Mother of God, you can see that he just promotes RCC nonsense.

E,
I feel like you're not understanding me because I may not be wording this correctly...

We're saved because we believe in God,
We trust in the sacrifice of His son to help us to join the Kingdom and keep us there until death.

We are not saved by doctrine...

IF we are....then WHICH doctrine saves us?

 

[Marymog]

God decides if you are obeying the Gospel and if you have a true relationship with Christ.

Since Scripture does NOT teach that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, but the CC teaches this, it is quite obvious as to who is right and who is wrong.

It is not "my interpretation". That is why I said that every Catholic should study the NT Scriptures INDEPENDENTLY of the Catechism, and accept what it teaches without superimposing any preconceptions. Then it would be your interpretation based upon exactly what is stated in the Bible.

I could give you a couple of dozen Scriptures to show you that sacraments are not necessary for salvation, but if you discover them for yourself, you will be fully convinced. Start with Acts 16:30,31.

OK....God decided and he told me that YOU (and the Muslims) are not obeying this Gospel and that you do not have a true relationship with Christ. Did he tell you something different????

God told my Church that Scripture teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation sooooo now it is REALY quite obvious as to who is right and who is wrong. Your church is wrong.

Hmmmm.....The men of the Catholic Church interpreted scripture incorrectly but a man sitting in his basement eating Dorito's while INDEPTENDETLY reading his bible without superimposing any information, input or scholarly advise from ANYONE can interpret scripture properly??? After all, the Dorito eater didn't have any "preconceptions". Fascinating

Yes, it is your interpretation. Sooooo ONCE AGAIN my church, and many others believe sacraments are necessary. Why is your interpretation right and others wrong?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

There is within Christianity great ignorance regarding Christian history in nations outside of those presided over by Rome. In Europe, the RCC was the only shop in town unless you wanted to front up to the inquisitive mafia. RCC apologists like to cite Jesus words regarding the lack of power of the gates of hell to overcome the church, directing that exclusively to Rome, not accepting that the gospel in those first centuries went to every nation tongue and people, according to Jesus personal instructions. The gospel therefore found its way to China, Japan, and the Philipines and every nation in between within a few centuries, as well as to Africa. Did Jesus' promise regarding the gates of hell fail with regards the thousands of churches that were established in those nations? And what of the Christian communities that existed on Rome's doorstep who rejected Papal authority...did Jesus fail them? Or was there always a remnant who never bowed their knees to Baal? Note, Jesus never promised that an apostate church would not exalt itself in usurping His name. But that His name would never be completely abandoned. And His name has never been completely abandoned. There has always been someone...whether individuals or communities...who have remained faithful to Him.

How do we decide who "remained faithful to Him"???

Who decides this???

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Perhaps you would care to comment on my post #601.

Did it....