If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

[BreadOfLife]

I agree @BreadOfLife that there is hope for any individual who is willing to repent and come to Christ for salvation. But institutions BoL are not subject to redemption. Even individuals have to die before being born again.
Jesus's own recommendation to the Laodicean church was not for the church to reform, but for individuals within that church to repent and be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. If all the individuals had done so, the church, the institution, would have changed. Some institutions however will never change... they see no reason to.

And as I said before - this shows a lack of faith on YOUR part.
With MY God - the God of Scripture - ALL things are possible.

I take very seriously what Jesus told Peter:
Matt. 16:18-19
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Jesus warned of wolves within His flock - and this is not the first scandal or test of faith that the Church has undergone and probably won't be the last..

 

[BreadOfLife]

They are wrong. I will tell you why. The NT Babylon is not a literal City, it is a spiritual entity. Nor is it situated in a local precinct, but global. But the character of Babylon hasn't changed. She still is The enemy to God's people. She is still steeped in idolatry. She is still proud and using the holy things of God in ways that dishonor and misrepresent Him, just as Belshazzar did the night of his great feast before Babylon was taken over by her enemies.
The same criteria must apply to the NT prophetic version of Jerusalem. And just as Babylon is a metaphor for the kingdom of Babylon, so is Jerusalem a metaphor for Israel. So in prophecy we have two entities... spiritual Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and spiritual Israel, representative of God people, his true church, which is not any one single denomination, but made up of individual people of many denominations, not excluding even Babylon, which is why God calls his people out of that entity.
Literal Israel and literal Jerusalem play no part in end time prophecy, despite the inventions of 16th or17th century Jesuits who taught different. The so called reputable Protestant scholars are mere tools in the hands of those who have a deep personal interest in hiding the true identity of Babylon the great from the masses.

And NEITHER is apostate Jerusalem a city. It is the entire people of Israel. "Jerusalem" is simply a generalization for the House of Israel.

The Whore of Babylon was drunk on the blood of the Prophets (Rev. 17:6).
Jesus accused Jerusalem of killing the Prophets (Matt. 23:27).

WHO said anything about "End time" prophecy?? Much of Revelation has ALREADY come to pass.
The "Whore" (apostate Israel) is in cahoots with Babylon (Pagan Rome) against the Church in the first century.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The Protestant's Reformation seems to be about the time of the printing press. The Bible became more accessible to the public. Because of this some people realized the Catholic Church was using God's Word in an unjust, dishonest, or immoral way. These people decided to try and find the truth. Many denominations came out of the reformation period.

Some things the Catholic Church does is contradiction to God's Word, but is still kept among the denominations that split.

Idol worship is one. How many churches today worship idols (symbols made by hand)? And could the cross be considered idol worship? Most Christians would say no, but do they even need it? Of course they don't need it in the church, so why have it in the church? Do some churches not have idols?
Yes, some churches keep the church without idols.

Tithing is another? Is this something in the New Testament or did the Apostles say give it all? Of course they did, so why giving 10%? Ancient Israel gave 10% to support the temple and priests. Are we living in Ancient Israel and support a temple and priests? Of course not, so why 10%? Does not God own it all and will give as He sees who is a faithful servant? Of course He does? Would someone have a church and not ask for money?
Yes, there are Pastors who do this.

Commercialism of God's Word is another. Did the Apostles sell their books or hand them out freely? Of course they were free so why such a large market for Christian products? Maybe the money is motivation and not the desire to help people? Would someone write for free just to help others?
Yes, there are people that do this.

I think it is for the Christian to decide. I don't believe any church is perfect and usually when someone hates it is because of personal feelings. Jesus was preaching in what he called "The Synagogue of Satan" and "Chased out the money changers". Why would you need to teach in a perfect church? If you are the light what is the most needed place for you to go? In the darkness and some of these churches are very dark. They might hate you but that is on them. The Jews hated the prophets and they hated Jesus what makes you think they won't hate you? But you don't want hate them.

The Protestants should all go over to a Catholic Mass and in the middle of the service, stand up and start singing "Our God is an Awesome God". That would be awesome.

Seems to me that you do not have a grasp on what an "idol" is.

An idol is NOT simply an object. An idol is an object of WORSHIP. When people WORSHIP something or somebody OTHER than God - it is an Idol.

Crosses in Protestant churches or a Crucifixes in a Catholic churches are REMINDERS of Christ's sacrifice. They don't take his PLACE. Paul said that we are to preach Christ CRUCIFIED, which is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:23).

Learn the difference . . .

 

[zipzaddle]

Seems to me that you do not have a grasp on what an "idol" is.
An idol is NOT simply an object. An idol is an object of WORSHIP. When people WORSHIP something or somebody OTHER than God - it is an Idol.
Crosses in Protestant churches or a Crucifixes in a Catholic churches are REMINDERS of Christ's sacrifice. They don't take his PLACE. Paul said that we are to preach Christ CRUCIFIED, which is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles (1 Cor. 1:23).
Learn the difference . . .

Easy tell (bold and all caps), but useful to get the message out so I will play along. Here is the "Learn the difference..."

The Cross Symbolism
Jesus Christ did not die on a cross He died on “an upright pale or stake.” The Greek word in Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter 2:24 means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree. The apostle Paul quoting Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 says: “Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.’” (Galatians 3:13)

The first 300 years after Christ’s death Christians never used the cross . In the fourth century Emperor Constantine promoted the cross as an idol when he merged all religions. The cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is pagan in origin and can be linked to nature worship and pagan sex rites. Devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

 

[Marymog]

Mary, instead of taking digs at me, you should be OUTRAGED at what has been reported about over 300 PREDATOR PRIESTS in Pennsylvania (never mind about what was just reported from Chile recently).

If I were you I would leave the Catholic Church on the basis of WORLDWIDE sexual abuse by priests, and criminal cover ups by their bishops (and of course the Pope). And all of this is a result of unbiblical doctrines and practices.

BTW answering your questions would have been a waste of time.

Asking you to back up your unbiblical belief is taking digs at you????? What a bizarre statement.

Good job though Enoch. Change the subject, point the finger at someone else and refuse to answer......LOVE IT!!!! You are the new dodge ball king!!!

I refer you to post #879 to address your sexual abuse by priest deflection of the subject at hand. I would like to add a few books to that list if you want to educate yourself and stop pretending this is only a Catholic problem:

When Pastors Prey: Overcoming Clergy Sexual Abuse of Women by Valli Boobal Batchelor

The Sexual Abuse of Women by Members of the Clergy By Kathryn A. Flynn

Victim to Survivor: Women Recovering from Clergy Sexual Abuse edited by Nancy Werking Poling

This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher Predator and His Gang by Christa Brown

I am outraged by ANY church leader who is a predator. You seem to only be outraged when it is a Catholic that does it. Sadly there is bigger problem with it in the Protestant churches. But shhhhhh....we don't want to talk about that....do we Enoch?

The sins of a priest and the cover up by the bishops are the "result of unbiblical doctrines and practices" of the Catholic Church??? That makes ZERO sense!!!

If your theory were true then ALL CHURCHES would have "unbiblical doctrines and practices".

Which Protestant denomination do you belong to???

Mary

 

[Enoch111]

The sins of a priest and the cover up by the bishops are the "result of unbiblical doctrines and practices" of the Catholic Church??? That makes ZERO sense!!!

Only if you are WILFULLY BLIND. It makes perfect sense when people understand two things:

1. The Roman Catholic priesthood and hierarchy are TOTALLY BOGUS.

2. The enforced celibacy of RCC priests is a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

 

[Marymog]

Only if you are WILFULLY BLIND. It makes perfect sense when people understand two things:

1. The Roman Catholic priesthood and hierarchy are TOTALLY BOGUS.

2. The enforced celibacy of RCC priests is a DOCTRINE OF DEMONS.

Hi Enoch,

The sin of a man does not nullify the doctrine of that mans church. To suggest otherwise shows ignorance. Since you believe that ignorant fallacy all the doctrines of your church have been nullified and the hierarchy of your church is totally bogus.

Which Protestant denomination do you belong to???

Your ignorance is clearly on display today. Celibacy is a choice. There are married Catholic Priest's with children. Stop calling the Apostle Paul's doctrine a doctrine of demons!!!

MARY

 

[BreadOfLife]

Easy tell (bold and all caps), but useful to get the message out so I will play along. Here is the "Learn the difference..."

The Cross Symbolism
Jesus Christ did not die on a cross He died on “an upright pale or stake.” The Greek word in Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter 2:24 means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree. The apostle Paul quoting Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 says: “Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.’” (Galatians 3:13)

The first 300 years after Christ’s death Christians never used the cross . In the fourth century Emperor Constantine promoted the cross as an idol when he merged all religions. The cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is pagan in origin and can be linked to nature worship and pagan sex rites. Devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

Ahhhh, another uneducated Jehovah's Witness telling us about Jesus dying on a "torture stake" and not a cross. Allow me to educate you . . .

Jesus was crucified on a cross - that is a vertical beam with a crossbeam. This was the method used by Romans in the first century. The cause of death for a crucified person was usually suffocation, which occurs when the hands are outstretched and the body goes limp.

Early graffiti from the first couple of centuries AD show this depiction of Roman crucifixion. One such example is the Alexamenos Graffito:

As Christians, we preach Christ CRUCIFIED (1 Cor. 1:23) - which is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to people like YOU.

No cross for 300 years my foot . . .

 

[zipzaddle]

Ahhhh, another uneducated Jehovah's Witness telling us about Jesus dying on a "torture stake" and not a cross. Allow me to educate you . . .

NSP - Didn't know they believed that. Love their little books and the graphics are really neat.

crucified on a cross -

This is not a cross, no top section, and his feet are on another cross beam,

we preach Christ CRUCIFIED (1 Cor. 1:23)

The Y or an upsilon is pagan, the figure is blowing a kiss which is a Roman gesture to their Pagan gods and inscription reads "Alexamenos worships his God." This would be a pagan God and could be Gnostic worship of Typhon-Seth.

No cross for 300 years my foot . . .

It is dated circa 300AD, but definitely not a cross as Christian use. None the less very interesting.

Probably two kids playing with a Pogo Stick. One wearing a horse mask and the other kid is yelling "IT IS MY TURN!"

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

Easy tell (bold and all caps), but useful to get the message out so I will play along. Here is the "Learn the difference..."

The Cross Symbolism
Jesus Christ did not die on a cross He died on “an upright pale or stake.” The Greek word in Acts 5:30, 10:39, 13:29, Galatians 3:13, 1 Peter 2:24 means “timber” or “a stick, club, or tree. The apostle Paul quoting Deuteronomy 21:22, 23 says: “Christ purchased us, releasing us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: ‘Accursed is every man hung upon a stake.’” (Galatians 3:13)

The first 300 years after Christ’s death Christians never used the cross . In the fourth century Emperor Constantine promoted the cross as an idol when he merged all religions. The cross had nothing to do with Jesus Christ. The cross is pagan in origin and can be linked to nature worship and pagan sex rites. Devotion to any pagan symbol is clearly condemned by the Bible. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) The Scriptures also forbid all forms of idolatry. (Exodus 20:4, 5; 1 Corinthians 10:14)

What you have stated is incorrect in part, and even a terrible translation. Would you like to see the evidence that demonstrates this from scripture and history?

 

[GodsGrace]

bbyrd, read slower if you need to. demons do not believe Jesus is their savior. Abraham did.

bb is trying to tell you something....don't miss it.

 

[GodsGrace]

What you have stated is incorrect in part, and even a terrible translation. Would you like to see the evidence that demonstrates this from scripture and history?

I would. .......from post 910.......

Although I dont really understand why some are so interested in this cross thing.

 

[Enoch111]

Although I dont really understand why some are so interested in this cross thing.

It is only because the Jehovah's Witnesses have made the cross an issue, and insisted on calling it a stake.

 

[TheHolyBookEnds]

I would. .......from post 910.......

Although I dont really understand why some are so interested in this cross thing.

Ok. I will try to post tomorrow on it.

It is a matter of looking at facts and truth. The bible says we must have a 'love of the truth'. It is the truth that sanctifies; Jhn. 17:17. Truth brings us together, as we acknowledge it.

The WTS or JW and related, and their materials (several of which I have on hand), misuse and even misquote sources on purpose, and this will also be shown as well.

 

[zipzaddle]

I would. .......from post 910.......
Although I dont really understand why some are so interested in this cross thing.

Doesn't matter if it was or wasn't a cross. The original post was about symbols in the church. How Protestants adopted the symbolism from the Catholic Church. Who wants to be reminded the torture and death of Jesus, because of something we did? The word crucified or crucify represents selfishness [self denial] and it is not the physical representation that is important. The symbol of having a cross in church [or any other icon] symbolizes a world consciousness and not a soul in the Eternal Kingdom. If still on the cross there is no Redemption, Holy Spirit or Eternal Kingdom. Why have the cross symbol? Does nothing for the believer and if a believer thinks it does that is idolatry. If a church doesn't have the cross is that going to make that church less powerful? No probably make it more powerful in the Holy Spirit. The conclusion is people are stubborn and set in their ways and out of false pride continue to hang onto a worldly icon that has no value which opposes the cross [crucified] [selflessness or self-denial].

 

[Triumph1300]

What a bunch of garbage did you post, Zipzaddle.
If there was no cross there would be no salvation.
Stop grieving the Holy Spirit.

 

[Triumph1300]

Who wants to be reminded the torture and death of Jesus

.

I do.

 

[Triumph1300]

I had a discussion about this with a JW.
After 20 minutes he slammed his fist on the table, started swearing at me and left the room.
A lady with him, got up and told me "You only want to fight with us".
She put her brochures back in her purse, gave me a dirty look and followed the guy out the door.

 

[GodsGrace]

Doesn't matter if it was or wasn't a cross. The original post was about symbols in the church. How Protestants adopted the symbolism from the Catholic Church. Who wants to be reminded the torture and death of Jesus, because of something we did? The word crucified or crucify represents selfishness [self denial] and it is not the physical representation that is important. The symbol of having a cross in church [or any other icon] symbolizes a world consciousness and not a soul in the Eternal Kingdom. If still on the cross there is no Redemption, Holy Spirit or Eternal Kingdom. Why have the cross symbol? Does nothing for the believer and if a believer thinks it does that is idolatry. If a church doesn't have the cross is that going to make that church less powerful? No probably make it more powerful in the Holy Spirit. The conclusion is people are stubborn and set in their ways and out of false pride continue to hang onto a worldly icon that has no value which opposes the cross [crucified] [selflessness or self-denial].

A worldly icon??

Let me ask you this...
Do you have pictures of your family in your wallet or on your desk at work or on a wall somewhere?
Why?
Maybe you should take them, out, off or down?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The term "romanist" is insulting and not remotely "Christ centered".

romanist in the dictionary is a roman catholic