If We Protestants Truly Hated Catholics...

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Rollo Tamasi

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The dark ages culminated when men, like you and your ilk, began to think they had the authority to properly interpret scripture throwing away 1,000+ years of a single authority. That anti-scriptural fantasy and rebellion of those men resulted in the Reformation and chaos in Christianity. All of a sudden every man like you and your ilk thought had the ability and authority to individually properly interpret scripture.

The Church was no longer speaking as one, like Scripture said we should (Romans 15:6), and we no longer had a Church to take our differences to like Mathew 18:17 says. We now have thousands of churches with opposing interpretations.

After all it was just ppl doing what ppl do......ignoring scripture. Right?

Mary
2 Timothy 3:16-17;
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

This general statement applies to all.
To think that one person in one church knows the Word of God over all others is ludicrous.
 
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GodsGrace

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romanist in the dictionary is a roman catholic
Which dictionary?
I've truly never heard it referred to like this.
Even Roman Catholic is not correct, but it's in such wide use that it can't be fought anymore. Roman is a rite, not a branch of the CC.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Grams is trying to make us believe that the Catholic Church in 1988 only celebrated Mass in LATIN. That is a DEAD giveaway that she is either LYING or that she belonged to some renegade pseudo-Catholic faction and NOT the Catholic Church.

The fact that neither she nor her parents ever owned or read a Bible is on THEM - not the Church.
As I stated before - my 91 year-old mother and HER parents were avid Bible readers and taught US to read it as well, so this nonsense of it being a "different time" back then is rubbish.

People are so willing to blame everybody ELSE but themselves for the decisions they make.

Let's see... renegade pseudo-catholic faction - where did that come from?
Certainly not the protestant church.
 
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GodsGrace

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The dark ages culminated when men, like you and your ilk, began to think they had the authority to properly interpret scripture throwing away 1,000+ years of a single authority. That anti-scriptural fantasy and rebellion of those men resulted in the Reformation and chaos in Christianity. All of a sudden every man like you and your ilk thought had the ability and authority to individually properly interpret scripture.

The Church was no longer speaking as one, like Scripture said we should (Romans 15:6), and we no longer had a Church to take our differences to like Mathew 18:17 says. We now have thousands of churches with opposing interpretations.

After all it was just ppl doing what ppl do......ignoring scripture. Right?

Mary
Gosh I hate that word....ilk.
Is it really necessary to say it?
It kind of takes a lot out of what you say (which I agree with most of the time).
 
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GodsGrace

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Wrong
The pope is the Bishop of Rome
Right.
But it's ALL the same Catholic Church.

It's not the Roman Catholic Church,
The Milanese Roman Church,
The Veneziana Roman Church...

See?

The Pope is the Bishop of the Catholic Church in Rome.
 

Rollo Tamasi

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Right.
But it's ALL the same Catholic Church.

It's not the Roman Catholic Church,
The Milanese Roman Church,
The Veneziana Roman Church...

See?

The Pope is the Bishop of the Catholic Church in Rome.
That makes the pope a romanist.
And if he's a romanist, then you are all romanists.
 

zipzaddle

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A worldly icon??

Let me ask you this...
Do you have pictures of your family in your wallet or on your desk at work or on a wall somewhere?
Why?
Maybe you should take them, out, off or down?
Some people just like the art and others see Mary in a piece of bread. Doesn't matter to me. People can do what they want. Why do I care except I don't like to be reminded of Jesus' torture and death. My heart feels Jesus' selflessness and self denial and the cross shows the physical torture He went through. Why dwell in the physical past when today it is the love inside He has for us?
 

GodsGrace

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Some people just like the art and others see Mary in a piece of bread. Doesn't matter to me. People can do what they want. Why do I care except I don't like to be reminded of Jesus' torture and death. My heart feels Jesus' selflessness and self denial and the cross shows the physical torture He went through. Why dwell in the physical past when today it is the love inside He has for us?
Hey ZZ
Welcome to the forum...
I understand what you're talking about.
I've never seen The Passion of The Christ.
I do, however, wear a cross all the time. It's a nice witness and it let's people know what I believe. So many atheists these days.

But I respect how you feel too.
I understood that you thought this was idolatry. I just got here; sorry if I misunderstood.
 
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zipzaddle

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Hey ZZ
Welcome to the forum...
I understand what you're talking about.
I've never seen The Passion of The Christ.
I do, however, wear a cross all the time. It's a nice witness and it let's people know what I believe. So many atheists these days.

But I respect how you feel too.
I understood that you thought this was idolatry. I just got here; sorry if I misunderstood.
Thank you. Church is a great love and with that passion. Passion to see us doing better and sometimes I can be critical so I too apologize if I seem judgemental.
 

Grams

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That's because you and your husband were ignorant Catholics and raised ignorant Catholic Children who felt the need to go elsewhere because of you lack of spiritual leadership.

Stop blaming the Church for your ignorance and spiritual laziness . . .


WOW ~ You sound just like the church.....Crazy and Wrong......
What kind of bible do you use.......... ? OH.......... mans prayer book !
 

GodsGrace

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WOW ~ You sound just like the church.....Crazy and Wrong......
What kind of bible do you use.......... ? OH.......... mans prayer book !
Grams,
BoL said what you're referring to on July 14!!
You're just getting around to this?
I almost scolded him!!
This is very old stuff....
 

Grams

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Yes that's true GodsGrace........ I was looking to see if I answered it and could not find it...

But the church I went to for over 50 years never had me saved.....
Now I wonder how many other people still believe "mans" word in place of

GOD"S word........

Thinking back then I had to save my self.........

We did not have the full gospel........

Sure am glad we found out soon enough , because my husband just passed away

two years ago.. [[We both went to the same church]]

Now I do not know if I will see my parents or my sister and brother and other
relatives...... who are long gone ? ! ? ! ????
[They were all brought up in a different Catholic Church ]
 

TheHolyBookEnds

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I would. .......from post 910.......

Although I dont really understand why some are so interested in this cross thing.
Ok, by "GodsGrace", here we go.

According to WTS theology, Jesus died on a 'torture stake' [pole. "i"] (also pagan by the way, the 'stella', 'maypole', 'yule log', 'obelisk', 'phallus', 'pyramid', 'needle', (they have a 'log" in their eye, and worry about a 'splinter', a 'cross beam' in others, etc), and not a "Cross" ["t"], when they say:

"... The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says that the word staurosʹ “properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground.” The dictionary continues: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (Latin, from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.” Thus, it is not surprising that The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end.” ..." - [1]

Let's begin with WTS/JW deception in their own sources, and they know it, because of where they use ellipses and partially give evidences.

“... the Watchtower's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation, of which the above woodcut is shown as an illustration:

"`Cross'" is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux simplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19, which we here present. ... Crux simplex illustrated."” - [1]

In this example, the Watch Tower and Tract Society, cites Justus Lipsius' work “De Cruce Liber Primus” [1] and cite merely one small section of the work, pointing to a possible type of crucifixion that was historically known, this being the Crux Simplex, Page 19, seen here - http://brooklyn.org.pl/00000003.gif or here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg , which is also seen in a more modern rendition, in the WTS material “What does the Bible really Teach?”, Page 52 [to which I had been given a copy of from a Jehovah's Witness, whom I knew briefly, and fully read and still have here with me], and also may be seen here - http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/97/bh_E.pdf

Yet Justus Lipsius work cites many types of crucifixions, that were historically known and used, not simply the one pointed out by the WTS, and he also does not point to the Crux Simplex as the one Jesus was crucified upon, but rather to another, being one with a cross beam, as may be seen here [Begin on Scanned Pages 1157-1234] - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1172/mode/2up

I included each individual page for any interested.

Page 1174 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1173/mode/1up
Page 1176 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1175/mode/1up
Page 1177 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1176/mode/1up
Page 1179 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1178/mode/1up
Page 1182 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1181/mode/1up
Page 1203 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1202/mode/1up
Page 1216 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1215/mode/1up
Page 1218 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1217/mode/1up
Page 1220 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1219/mode/1up
Page 1222 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1219/mode/1up
Page 1223 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1222/mode/1up

Now, that we have seen what the WTS/JW state, would you like to see what the Imperial Bible Dictionary and the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia actually say in their context? I will share it next if you want to see it, so let me know. We can then begin to look at the Bible also once that is done.
 

GodsGrace

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Ok, by "GodsGrace", here we go.

According to WTS theology, Jesus died on a 'torture stake' [pole. "i"] (also pagan by the way, the 'stella', 'maypole', 'yule log', 'obelisk', 'phallus', 'pyramid', 'needle', (they have a 'log" in their eye, and worry about a 'splinter', a 'cross beam' in others, etc), and not a "Cross" ["t"], when they say:

"... The Imperial Bible-Dictionary says that the word staurosʹ “properly signified a stake, an upright pole, or piece of paling, on which anything might be hung, or which might be used in impaling a piece of ground.” The dictionary continues: “Even amongst the Romans the crux (Latin, from which our cross is derived) appears to have been originally an upright pole.” Thus, it is not surprising that The Catholic Encyclopedia states: “Certain it is, at any rate, that the cross originally consisted of a simple vertical pole, sharpened at its upper end.” ..." - [1]

Let's begin with WTS/JW deception in their own sources, and they know it, because of where they use ellipses and partially give evidences.

“... the Watchtower's 1985 Kingdom Interlinear Translation, of which the above woodcut is shown as an illustration:

"`Cross'" is only a later meaning of crux. A single stake for impalement of a criminal was called in Latin crux simplex. One such instrument of torture is illustrated by Justus Lipsius (1547-1606) in his book De cruce libri tres, Antwerp, 1629, p. 19, which we here present. ... Crux simplex illustrated."” - [1]

In this example, the Watch Tower and Tract Society, cites Justus Lipsius' work “De Cruce Liber Primus” [1] and cite merely one small section of the work, pointing to a possible type of crucifixion that was historically known, this being the Crux Simplex, Page 19, seen here - http://brooklyn.org.pl/00000003.gif or here - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Justus_Lipsius_Crux_Simplex_1629.jpg , which is also seen in a more modern rendition, in the WTS material “What does the Bible really Teach?”, Page 52 [to which I had been given a copy of from a Jehovah's Witness, whom I knew briefly, and fully read and still have here with me], and also may be seen here - http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/97/bh_E.pdf

Yet Justus Lipsius work cites many types of crucifixions, that were historically known and used, not simply the one pointed out by the WTS, and he also does not point to the Crux Simplex as the one Jesus was crucified upon, but rather to another, being one with a cross beam, as may be seen here [Begin on Scanned Pages 1157-1234] - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1172/mode/2up

I included each individual page for any interested.

Page 1174 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1173/mode/1up
Page 1176 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1175/mode/1up
Page 1177 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1176/mode/1up
Page 1179 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1178/mode/1up
Page 1182 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1181/mode/1up
Page 1203 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1202/mode/1up
Page 1216 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1215/mode/1up
Page 1218 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1217/mode/1up
Page 1220 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1219/mode/1up
Page 1222 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1219/mode/1up
Page 1223 - https://archive.org/stream/operaomniapostr00lipsgoog#page/n1222/mode/1up

Now, that we have seen what the WTS/JW state, would you like to see what the Imperial Bible Dictionary and the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia actually say in their context? I will share it next if you want to see it, so let me know. We can then begin to look at the Bible also once that is done.
You know too much!
I never heard of the above, but I know it's not true.
Jesus was always depicted on a stake with a cross beam,,,that's why it's called a cross. And was from the beginning, as church history shows.

What I'm trying to understand is WHY the WTS would think this is so important.

The very word "cross" means that something was crossed with something else.

I'm posting the attached to save time since I don't have much today....
Jesus Himself and the writers of the N.T. spoke of this cross...

https://earlychristianbeliefs.org/early-christian-view-cross/

If you would, tell me why the JW's think it's an important point.
 

GodsGrace

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You'r joking, right?
Not joking T,
Europe is an atheist continent and getting worse every day.
And, it seems the further north one goes, the worse it gets.
So if we have someone here from Sweden, we should be thankful to God that they were sent here to fellowship with other Christians. Some up north don't even have a church they could go to nearby. Which is my case too, BTW.
Luckily for me, I don't dislike the CC although I don't agree with some of its doctrine, so I have connection with priests and friends --- but it's not the same.

It's nice to see ZZ here.
 
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