The Law of Moses-Ten Commandments or God's Laws

[brakelite]

Folk keep bringing up the ten commandments bring a covenant with Israel. What they forget, or aren't aware of, is that Israel broke that covenant. God's covenant was a promise. Just as he brought them out of slavery (Exodus 20:1,2) so was the promise that they would have only one God, make no idols, honour the Sabbath, be honest, respectful, and a holy people. In other words, God would make them a people who kept his commandments. That was the promise. (And it still is a promise to those who believe). But Israel broke the covenant because they didn't believe in the promise. They doubted God, and proclaimed arrogantly that they would keep all his commandments. (Exodus24:3). Israel, with one voice, started that they would do what God has promised he would do. Thus Israel broke the covenant right from the start. That is why a new covenant had to be established, yet it isn't any different from the old, except in one respect... Is for everyone. Even Christians... Unfortunately, Christians aren't any more amenable to accepting or believing God promises that they can keep his commandments than was Israel.

KJV Hebrews 8
The New Covenant Foretold By Jeremiah
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. (Obviously there was nothing wrong with Gods promises... It was the promises of Israel that we faulty)
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

It is sad that when God actually does keep this promise with his people, there are always those who being observed to be keeping Gods commandments according to God's own promise, they accuse those commandment keepers of being legalists and working their way to heaven. Then they make excuses why the commandments cannot really be kept... Or the law is done away with... Or particular commandments are no longer binding... Or the most audacious of them all, even though a Christian may steal or commit adultery, it isn't really sin, because Christians can't sin!!!

 

[Truth]

There's a lot of that going around...man made religion that is.

Agreed! My Wife and I have not been to a Church in 19 years, We Love God and Savior, BUT we came to the conclusion that what is taught in these Place's, is at best Half Truth's, and the rest is just plain L??s

 

[Nancy]

oh and just to clarify @Dave L , I am not the teacher here...definitely the student...just bringing up what others have said as a counterpoint to your point....not sure who is right...maybe both.

And when we ask God, in prayer to give us discernment in the things of the Spirit...He does ♥ As long as our hearts are right with God Almighty, (only through Christ) and open to obey Him (ALWAYS for our own good) He so reveals His will for our lives. We are free in Christ and His Spirit guides into all things God. He brings us to Truth and we are all at different places on this long road. Some might be trying to enter another way but Christians will know they are on the one and only road to salvation. We can't be swayed by doctrines because it can cause divisions...not that another person can not be used of God to teach us things but, as long as we have His Spirit, discernment and His word...we have everything we need to rest in Him...no matter what anyone else says. We must combine all of these things to be able to rest in truth...JMHO ♥

 

[brakelite]

3 Spiritual laws that govern life.
“For I delight in

Law One: ……….The law of God.

after the inward man”…..(Romans 7:22)

Paul has nothing but love and respect for God’s law. He considers it ‘holy, just and good’. It is Paul’s earnest and deepest desire to honour that law, and to keep all the commandments,

” but I see another law in my members, warring against the law (of God) of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to….” (v23cont.)

Law Two:………..“The law of sin…

“…which is in my members.

Paul delights in obedience, but finds that in the carnal nature resides a law which makes it impossible, the law of sin. Paul confesses his wretchedness and guilt. “Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” he cries.

“I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh, the law of sin.” (vs 25)

But if Paul is bound by the law of sin, despite his best intentions to obey the law of God, how then can he overcome? The answer is just 2 verses later. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For…

Law Three:……….the law of the Spirit of life…

in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” Romans 8:1,2.

Three laws. The law of God which is holy, just, and good.
The law of sin which binds the carnal man making it impossible to obey the law of God.
The law of the Spirit of life which through the grace and power of God makes it possible for the reborn child of God to obey the law of God, if he relies on and walks after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The law of sin has no power over them who are completely surrendered to Christ. That is why elsewhere Paul can assert that to those who walk in the Spirit they are transformed by the renewing of their minds, and are recreated into the image of the character of Christ. A character that is obedient and a mind (like Christ’s) which delights in the law of God and rejoices that by faith in the power and grace of God he may be obedient to all the commandments.

 

[Nancy]

Men judge by the outside. God looks at the heart and it's thoughts and intentions. Men judge humanly.

Men would say both women are keeping the law when they could be whitewashed tombs, looking good on the outside, but filthy inside.

If God were a man, Heaven would remain empty..

 

[brakelite]

don't forget that anything God says is a commandment.

When does what God commands, cease to be a commandment? And on who's authority?

 

[brakelite]

Agreed! My Wife and I have not been to a Church in 19 years, We Love God and Savior, BUT we came to the conclusion that what is taught in these Place's, is at best Half Truth's, and the rest is just plain L??s

Although such is not the testimony of us all.

 

[Truth]

The Ten did not exist as a group before Sinai. The Two Great Commandments are eternal.

Genesis 26:4-5
4- And I will make your descendant's multiply as the star's of Heaven; I will give to your Descendant's all these Lands, and in your seed all the nation's of the earth shall be blessed;
5- BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My Commandment's, My Statutes, and My Law's!
Could the Commandment's that Abraham kept be the 10 +??
Could God have had no reason to put them in stone until, He brought the Nation of Israel out of Egypt, when there was more than a one on one relationship with men, the giving of the Torah was for the Nation, thus them being ruled by a order of law's!

 

[brakelite]

We can't be swayed by doctrines because it can cause divisions...

But true doctrine, if believed and practiced would unite yes? Only false doctrine can cause division. So doctrine is good, even essential, but it must be sound.

 

[Jay Ross]

Without calling any one person out for being in error, Please allow me to make the following case: -

God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. He also told Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that their descendants would be scattered to the four corners of the earth and that He would draw them back to Himself in the future. God did not make with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a Covenant for the nation of Israel to become a Nation of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations as He did with all of Israel after He brought them out of Egypt at Mt. Sinai/Horeb as recorded in the Book of Exodus. Moses, just before he went up to the mountain to die, recounted what had been promised to them by God at Mt. Sinai just before Israel was to re-enter the Land of Canaan some 470 years after Jacob took his family and household down to Egypt because of a famine.

Because Israel rebelled against this Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests etc. at Mt Sinai, God at the bequest of Moses, entered into a Covenant with Moses, Labelled today as the Mosaic Covenant. Much later, in Jeremiah we read that God some two and a half ages later, and is now a near future event, i.e. within the next 20-50 years, will make like new again, with some refinements, the same covenant of a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among all of the Nations once more.

The issue that we have is that this is something that we have a little difficulty comprehending.

What we label as the Old and the New Covenant, we consider as being two very different covenants in that since the Old Covenant Jesus happened and that He has introduced a brand new Covenant, which was bases around all of the Laws that God had given at Horeb/Mt. Sinai, but in essences condensed down to just two concise "laws" on which all of the other laws are constructed out of.

What has changes over the years is the process by which redemption was/is available to over the ages in time.

Sadly the "Church" has become just like Israel over their first two ages of existence, and reverted once again into the "laws" of how one must be redeemed. We are now no better that the Jews in Jesus' days of His first advent and our understanding just like the Jews back then is lacking.

Back then not all of Israel was lost, just as today not all of the Church is lost, but the "Priests' in both instances are lacking in what they are teaching of their understanding of God.

Shalom

 

[brakelite]

Genesis 26:4-5
4- And I will make your descendant's multiply as the star's of Heaven; I will give to your Descendant's all these Lands, and in your seed all the nation's of the earth shall be blessed;
5- BECAUSE Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My Commandment's, My Statutes, and My Law's!
Could the Commandment's that Abraham kept be the 10 +??
Could God have had no reason to put them in stone until, He brought the Nation of Israel out of Egypt, when there was more than a one on one relationship with men, the giving of the Torah was for the Nation, thus them being ruled by a order of law's!

Agreed. One must also consider that after decades of slavery, indoctrination into Egyptian mythology and idolatry, (witness what took place right under the shadow of Sinai less than a month after the commandments were given), Israel to a great extent would have forgotten what the commandments were, who God is, and the promises given to their fathers. Hence the display of power in the sight of the nation both of the judgements and might of the God who was getting them from that slavery. They needed reminders of who God is, and what he was capable of. Why? Because God had a purpose... To bring a people into existence through Whom he could bring the Messiah and save the world. Unfortunately, apart from a few individual exceptions, Israel wasnt willing.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

When does what God commands, cease to be a commandment? And on who's authority?

On His Own Authority. Covenants start and end with God. The Old Covenant started at Mt. Sinai and ended when the New Covenant came into effect. But nothing inside a covenant ends until the covenant ends.

Just as in the New Covenant we are given gifts of the Holy Spirit. The ignorant Cessationists believe they ended in the middle of our ongoing covenant. Not so. They will not end until we see Christ face to face. The writing of the covenant doesn't negate the covenant.

 

[quietthinker]

@Heart2Soul
I am no expert on the OT law, be it physical or spiritual, but most of what you have written sounds OK so long as I don't need to support it all immediately with scripture. The following quote from your OP is expressed in a way I had perhaps heard but never really fully considered. Of course understanding what does apply to natural Israel is not nearly important to us as understanding what does apply to us.

Perhaps some others here will help fill in some of the gaps in knowledge or understanding.

God's Law amadeus, is the foundation of his government. They are there for the well being of the Universe. It was the challenge to God's law that brought down Lucifer and subsequently Adam and Eve.

When one did not eat meat as Adam and Eve didn't, health laws were not required but when men became became meat eaters a whole new ball game was introduced with some flesh not ideal for human consumption so God introduced health laws for their own well being.
Personally, I don't see any reason for these to be abrogated. If they were not suitable then why would they be suitable now?

Other laws were given as types and shadows, living metaphors that represented events yet to unfold in God's plan of salvation. (the reconciliation of God with mankind)
Once the type was eclipsed by the anti type, the type was no longer necessary. These types namely, animal sacrifices, certain festivals and practices faded with their fulfilment and were no longer applicable.

I am no doubt telling you what you already know but for those who are unfamiliar, this is perhaps useful information.

The Ten Commandments however are immutable. If they were not then Jesus need not have died.

Sin is defined by the law. It will be punished. (the wages of sin is death) If it was possible for this to be changed, God would have and could have changed it, but no, even with Jesus pleading with his Father and knowing that with God all things are possible, the cup he was about to drink was not removed. Death is the only way God can rid the Universe of Sin. Why? because it was not possible for God to alter what he himself is.

Confusing God's immutable law with the laws of types and shadows or health laws and lumping them all into one bag so that they are all dismissed in favour of what is propounded to be superior is playing right into Satans hand for the temporal and eternal disadvantage of the human race.

We are given the miserable history of Israel as a lesson for ourselves. Obey God's laws and he is our shield and protector. Disobey and we forfeit his protection.

 

[Helen]

Agreed! My Wife and I have not been to a Church in 19 years, We Love God and Savior, BUT we came to the conclusion that what is taught in these Place's, is at best Half Truth's, and the rest is just plain L??s

Ditto and agree...about the same number of years too.

 

[amadeus]

@quietthinker

quietthinker said: God's Law amadeus, is the foundation of his government. They are there for the well being of the Universe. It was the challenge to God's law that brought down Lucifer and subsequently Adam and Eve.

When one did not eat meat as Adam and Eve didn't, health laws were not required but when men became became meat eaters a whole new ball game was introduced with some flesh not ideal for human consumption so God introduced health laws for their own well being.
Personally, I don't see any reason for these to be abrogated. If they were not suitable then why would they be suitable now?

Other laws were given as types and shadows, living metaphors that represented events yet to unfold in God's plan of salvation. (the reconciliation of God with mankind)
Once the type was eclipsed by the anti type, the type was no longer necessary. These types namely, animal sacrifices, certain festivals and practices faded with their fulfilment and were no longer applicable.

I am no doubt telling you what you already know but for those who are unfamiliar, this is perhaps useful information.

The Ten Commandments however are immutable. If they were not then Jesus need not have died.

Sin is defined by the law. It will be punished. (the wages of sin is death) If it was possible for this to be changed, God would have and could have changed it, but no, even with Jesus pleading with his Father and knowing that with God all things are possible, the cup he was about to drink was not removed. Death is the only way God can rid the Universe of Sin. Why? because it was not possible for God to alter what he himself is.

Confusing God's immutable law with the laws of types and shadows or health laws and lumping them all into one bag so that they are all dismissed in favour of what is propounded to be superior is playing right into Satans hand for the temporal and eternal disadvantage of the human race.

We are given the miserable history of Israel as a lesson for ourselves. Obey God's laws and he is our shield and protector. Disobey and we forfeit his protection.

Thank you for your kind and informative response. I might discuss further but it has been an very long day for us. My wife is down with pneumonia, while I as the primary caregiver am exhausted. I do need to play catch up on some of the posts here addressed to me.
May God richly bless you as you walk onward with Him.[/quote]

 

[Enoch111]

God's Law amadeus, is the foundation of his government.

True, so long as we are clear that this means the Ten Commandments -- moral and spiritual laws. While Israel was under the Old Covenant, all the other laws under the Old Covenant would continue.

God introduced health laws for their own well being.

True.

Personally, I don't see any reason for these to be abrogated. If they were not suitable then why would they be suitable now?

This is where we must turn to the authority of Christ (and also what He revealed to the apostles). The dietary (and ceremonial) laws of Israel had become more critical than obedience to the Ten Commandments. Therefore Christ ruled that it was not what goes into a man which defiles him, but what comes out of the man.

Later, Paul made it very clear that just as Noah was given all meats for food (the consumption of blood being excepted), Christians may partake of all meats. Which means that those who wish to be scrupulous about dietary laws are welcome to do so, provided they do not insist that all Christians must adhere to them. And that is how the Council of Jerusalem also ruled (under the authority of the Holy Spirit).

 

[1stCenturyLady]

hen one did not eat meat as Adam and Eve didn't, health laws were not required but when men became became meat eaters a whole new ball game was introduced with some flesh not ideal for human consumption so God introduced health laws for their own well being.
Personally, I don't see any reason for these to be abrogated. If they were not suitable then why would they be suitable now?

You've missed the point of meat laws, and in the process made scriptural mistakes of terminology and chronology of events regarding meat as well as wrong assumptions from your denomination. They were not health laws, but spiritual laws separating the clean from the unclean. And at the time of the flood when meat laws were introduced, everything that moved was for food, not as you implied. Separation of clean meat was only for sacrifices, even when man and beast only ate vegetation. To show that God had made a covenant with the children of Israel, dietary laws were instituted that forbade them from eating "everything that moves" and changed it to the types of meats that from the beginning of sin would have been for sacrifices to God, to show a separation of God's people against Gentiles, who were considered unclean or common. This was only until God cleansed the Gentiles to be acceptable to receive the gospel, then meat laws went back to the time of the flood when everything that moves was good for food if received with thanksgiving.

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. This included the animals who before this were vegetarians also.

Leviticus 20:25-26
You shall therefore distinguish between clean animals and unclean, between unclean birds and clean, and you shall not make yourselves abominable by beast or by bird, or by any kind of living thing that creeps on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. 26 And you shall be holy to Me, for I the Lord am holy, and have separated you from the peoples, that you should be Mine.

Acts 10:15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, “What God has cleansed you must not call common.”

1 Timothy 4:4-5
For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

cc: @amadeus

 

[Helen]

True, so long as we are clear that this means the Ten Commandments -- moral and spiritual laws. While Israel was under the Old Covenant, all the other laws under the Old Covenant would continue.

True.

This is where we must turn to the authority of Christ (and also what He revealed to the apostles). The dietary (and ceremonial) laws of Israel had become more critical than obedience to the Ten Commandments. Therefore Christ ruled that it was not what goes into a man which defiles him, but what comes out of the man.

Later, Paul made it very clear that just as Noah was given all meats for food (the consumption of blood being excepted), Christians may partake of all meats. Which means that those who wish to be scrupulous about dietary laws are welcome to do so, provided they do not insist that all Christians must adhere to them. And that is how the Council of Jerusalem also ruled (under the authority of the Holy Spirit).

Very good balanced thread Enoch.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Without calling any one person out for being in error, Please allow me to make the following case: -

God made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would become a blessing to all of the nations of the earth. He also told Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that their descendants would be scattered to the four corners of the earth and that He would draw them back to Himself in the future. God did not make with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob a Covenant for the nation of Israel to become a Nation of Priests, a Holy Nation and His possession among the nations as He did with all of Israel after He brought them out of Egypt at Mt. Sinai/Horeb as recorded in the Book of Exodus. Moses, just before he went up to the mountain to die, recounted what had been promised to them by God at Mt. Sinai just before Israel was to re-enter the Land of Canaan some 470 years after Jacob took his family and household down to Egypt because of a famine.

Because Israel rebelled against this Covenant of a Kingdom of Priests etc. at Mt Sinai, God at the bequest of Moses, entered into a Covenant with Moses, Labelled today as the Mosaic Covenant. Much later, in Jeremiah we read that God some two and a half ages later, and is now a near future event, i.e. within the next 20-50 years, will make like new again, with some refinements, the same covenant of a Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and His Possession among all of the Nations once more.

The issue that we have is that this is something that we have a little difficulty comprehending.

What we label as the Old and the New Covenant, we consider as being two very different covenants in that since the Old Covenant Jesus happened and that He has introduced a brand new Covenant, which was bases around all of the Laws that God had given at Horeb/Mt. Sinai, but in essences condensed down to just two concise "laws" on which all of the other laws are constructed out of.

What has changes over the years is the process by which redemption was/is available to over the ages in time.

Sadly the "Church" has become just like Israel over their first two ages of existence, and reverted once again into the "laws" of how one must be redeemed. We are now no better that the Jews in Jesus' days of His first advent and our understanding just like the Jews back then is lacking.

Back then not all of Israel was lost, just as today not all of the Church is lost, but the "Priests' in both instances are lacking in what they are teaching of their understanding of God.

Shalom

What hope is there except that we, being the body, begin to fully operate each according to the function God purposed for us to be.....let the hand be the hand....the foot...the leg....etc....the church leaders has allowed the members to dictate how the they (being the body) should be used instead of being obedient and willing to accept their place in the body. The leadership rarely exists anymore as God set it up to be....Apostles, Prophets, Pastors, Teachers and Evangelists.....furthermore their is too much tolerance to rebellion to the Truth of His Word and therefore doctrines are modified to please the offended rebels. SMH

 

[quietthinker]

This is where we must turn to the authority of Christ (and also what He revealed to the apostles). The dietary (and ceremonial) laws of Israel had become more critical than obedience to the Ten Commandments. Therefore Christ ruled that it was not what goes into a man which defiles him, but what comes out of the man.

I think in this case defilement was about unacceptability whereas the food laws were about health.....also not to be confused