How Important Truth?

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Enoch111

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How or why would there be a worm in Hell
The Lord Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 66:24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It is simply a metaphor for the ETERNAL agony and torment experienced in the Lake of Fire.

JOHN GILL'S COMMENTARY
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The passage referred to, is in Isaiah 66:24, and as there, the words are spoken of such, as transgressed against the Lord; so here, of such as offended any of Christ's little ones, or were offended by an hand, a foot, or eye, and retained them: by their worm is meant, their conscience; for as a worm that is continually gnawing upon the entrails of a man, gives him exquisite pain; so the consciences of sinners, will be continually flying in their faces, bringing their sins to remembrance, accusing them of them, upbraiding them with them, aggravating them, tormenting them for them, filling them with dreadful anguish and misery, with twinging remorses, and severe reflections, and which will never have an end.

This will be always the case; conscience will be ever distressing, racking, and torturing them; it will never cease, nor cease doing this office, and so the Chaldee paraphrase of Isaiah 66:24 renders this phrase, , "their souls shall not die"; but shall ever continue in the dreadful torments and unspeakable horrors of a corroding conscience...
 

charity

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No, I am saying that hell is simply the grave. All inferences that it is a place of fire and brimstone comes from first, Greek philosophy, then picked up by the Catholic church as she was plunging headlong into apostasy. She picked up a few other heresies along the way which Protestants seem reluctant to give up...like I said, hell is just the grave. No-one is now currently burning, anywhere. And only those in heaven are those who have been specially resurrected such as Moses' along with Enoch and Elijah. There are some others who were raised at the time of Jesus resurrection...His firstfruits...but everyone else are still in the grave waiting their resurrection, either of the righteous, or the wicked. There is no fire that destroys anyone until after the conclusion of the 1000 years, when fire destroys everything on the planet in preparation for its recreation.

I think this also suffers from philosophical influences from Greece. The place the fallen angels were 'bound' to was the earth. There are fallen angels all around us...I have seen them on occasion. Felt their presence more than once. They are not bound up in a prison somewhere unable to escape...Jesus met many of them...knew who they were, and they Him...and they knew what is coming to them in the end, pleading with Jesus, "not yet". But their time, and of wicked humanity, is surely coming, and it will come all at once, of varying degrees of intensity as befitting the crimes committed. Those people who knew not Christ, but lived but a short time in sin and rebellion will suffer the least (with few stripes) before they are destroyed, the devil and his angels, the demons, will suffer the longest, but eventually, they also will be destroyed. No-one is immortal...not even angels.
'For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hell
(Tartaroo),
and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world,
but saved Noah the eighth person,
a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;'

(2 Peter 2:4-5)

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust,
that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh,
but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'

(1 Peter 3:18)

Hello @brakelite,

Human reasoning can introduce error, so observing exactly what is said and no more is the only sure way of receiving, honouring and retaining TRUTH. I hear it, I believe it, and praise His Holy Name.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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... I think this also suffers from philosophical influences from Greece. The place the fallen angels were 'bound' to was the earth. There are fallen angels all around us...I have seen them on occasion. Felt their presence more than once. They are not bound up in a prison somewhere unable to escape...Jesus met many of them...knew who they were, and they Him...and they knew what is coming to them in the end, pleading with Jesus, "not yet". But their time, and of wicked humanity, is surely coming, and it will come all at once, of varying degrees of intensity as befitting the crimes committed. Those people who knew not Christ, but lived but a short time in sin and rebellion will suffer the least (with few stripes) before they are destroyed, the devil and his angels, the demons, will suffer the longest, but eventually, they also will be destroyed. No-one is immortal...not even angels.
'For if God spared not the angels that sinned,
but cast them down to hell
(Tartaroo),
and delivered them into chains of darkness,
to be reserved unto judgment;
And spared not the old world,
but saved Noah the eighth person,
a preacher of righteousness,
bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;'

(2 Peter 2:4-5)

'For Christ also hath once suffered for sins,
the just for the unjust,
that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh,
but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.'

(1 Peter 3:18)

Hello @brakelite,

Human reasoning can introduce error, so observing exactly what is said and no more is the only sure way of receiving, honouring and retaining TRUTH. I hear it, I believe it, and praise His Holy Name.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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The Lord Jesus was quoting from Isaiah 66:24: And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

It is simply a metaphor for the ETERNAL agony and torment experienced in the Lake of Fire.

JOHN GILL'S COMMENTARY
Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. The passage referred to, is in Isaiah 66:24, and as there, the words are spoken of such, as transgressed against the Lord; so here, of such as offended any of Christ's little ones, or were offended by an hand, a foot, or eye, and retained them: by their worm is meant, their conscience; for as a worm that is continually gnawing upon the entrails of a man, gives him exquisite pain; so the consciences of sinners, will be continually flying in their faces, bringing their sins to remembrance, accusing them of them, upbraiding them with them, aggravating them, tormenting them for them, filling them with dreadful anguish and misery, with twinging remorses, and severe reflections, and which will never have an end.

This will be always the case; conscience will be ever distressing, racking, and torturing them; it will never cease, nor cease doing this office, and so the Chaldee paraphrase of Isaiah 66:24 renders this phrase, , "their souls shall not die"; but shall ever continue in the dreadful torments and unspeakable horrors of a corroding conscience...
Hello @Enoch111,

I do not agree with John Gill when he says that the 'worm' referred to in the verse quoted in your entry is the conscience. The fires referred to are continuously burning to destroy what is put into it. One form of punishment was to deny burial, and to cast the dead body of the offender into the fires of Gehenna, fires where the refuse of Jerusalem was destroyed. The 'worm' refers to the process of decay following death, which in the case of those spoken of will not cease, there will be no hope of resurrection for such. Which makes me think of a verse,

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell
(Gehenna).'
(Matthew 10:28)

* God says what He means, and means what He says: His word does not need to be interpreted, only believed. This verse makes it clear that God is able to destroy the whole man and deny any prospect of it being energized by life that it should become once more a living soul: Gehenna being it's only destination, and that for destruction; and not eternal conscious punishment. That is a fearful prospect, for there is no hope for such a one.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Taken

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How Important IS TRUTH?

Gods TRUTH IS SUPREME, and VERY IMPORTANT.

Mans TRUTH IS the CAUSE OF CONFLICT among men.

It is MEN, whose OWN TRUTH IS IN CONFLICT WITH "HIMSELF"....

It is MEN, WHO "TESTIFY" "THEY" BELIEVE Scripture IS TRUE....BUT "THEN" WILL "CARNALLY" ARGUE "IT IS NOT TRUE".

THEIR OWN Carnal Minds Thoughts and
THEIR OWN Hearts Thoughts ARE
IN CONFLICT...

AND TO "JUSTIFY" their "OWN CONFLICT"...
Simply CALL OTHERS "LIARS" who will not AGREE, "WITH THEIR" Conflicted gobbledygook.

And FLAT OUT, I will say, BOL, is the chief "educator" on this forum, for "teaching" REMAINING IN CONFLICT "IS" "HIS WAY" to Salvation.

And FLAT OUT, I will say, JESUS' TEACHING and JESUS' WAY, is "for a man to BECOME IN AGREEMENT with HIS OWN THOUGHTS, of His Heart and Mind."

Glory to God,
Taken
 

charity

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No, I am saying that hell is simply the grave. All inferences that it is a place of fire and brimstone comes from first, Greek philosophy, then picked up by the Catholic church as she was plunging headlong into apostasy. She picked up a few other heresies along the way which Protestants seem reluctant to give up...like I said, hell is just the grave. No-one is now currently burning, anywhere. And only those in heaven are those who have been specially resurrected such as Moses' along with Enoch and Elijah. There are some others who were raised at the time of Jesus resurrection...His firstfruits...but everyone else are still in the grave waiting their resurrection, either of the righteous, or the wicked. There is no fire that destroys anyone until after the conclusion of the 1000 years, when fire destroys everything on the planet in preparation for its recreation.
'If I have told you earthly things,
and ye believe not,
how shall ye believe,
if I tell you of heavenly things?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven,
but He that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man which is in heaven.
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have eternal life.'

(John 3:12-15)

Hello @brakelite,

In the light of what is said in the verses above, how do you account for what is said concerning those to whom you refer in your entry? Enoch, Elijah and those raised from the dead at Christ's resurrection (Matthew 27:52-53). As for Moses we know that he died and that God buried him (Deuteronomy 34:5-7), and that his appearance on the mount of transfiguration was in prophetic vision only (Matthew 17:9), the vision of Christ in future glory (Matthew 16:28).

Those raised at the resurrection of Christ are not said to have ascended into heaven, but that they were seen in Jerusalem: they rose to life, but not to eternal life, they could therefore die again.

As to Enoch and Elijah: Genesis 5:24; Hebrews 11:5; 1 Kings 2. - I do not know the answer to this, I will simply believe what I read; and praise God that one day I will know, even as I am known.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus.
Chris
 
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charity

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How Important IS TRUTH?

Gods TRUTH IS SUPREME, and VERY IMPORTANT.

Mans TRUTH IS the CAUSE OF CONFLICT among men.

It is MEN, whose OWN TRUTH IS IN CONFLICT WITH "HIMSELF"....

It is MEN, WHO "TESTIFY" "THEY" BELIEVE Scripture IS TRUE....BUT "THEN" WILL "CARNALLY" ARGUE "IT IS NOT TRUE".

THEIR OWN Carnal Minds Thoughts and
THEIR OWN Hearts Thoughts ARE
IN CONFLICT...

AND TO "JUSTIFY" their "OWN CONFLICT"...
Simply CALL OTHERS "LIARS" who will not AGREE, "WITH THEIR" Conflicted gobbledygook.

And FLAT OUT, I will say, BOL, is the chief "educator" on this forum, for "teaching" REMAINING IN CONFLICT "IS" "HIS WAY" to Salvation.

And FLAT OUT, I will say, JESUS' TEACHING and JESUS' WAY, is "for a man to BECOME IN AGREEMENT with HIS OWN THOUGHTS, of His Heart and Mind."

Glory to God,
Taken
Hello @Taken,

I don't understand. - Who or what is BOL?

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Taken

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Hello @Taken,

I don't understand. - Who or what is BOL?

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

"BOL", is a forum member. A self-described "educator/teacher" of Catholic Teachings,
with the pseudonym
"BreadOfLife".

(His most recent "teaching" IS;
Mark 10:18.....(is true according to BOL)
Luke 19:19.....(is true according to BOL)
Luke 23:50 .....(is not true according to BOL)


God Bless,
Taken
 

charity

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I think I saw that movie. I've been through a number of things that have made me crave "swift justice." I tend to be proactive and it's hard to not take action, and often it's hard to discern when and if you should take action. Some of the wrongs committed by even Christians are shocking in their evil. God must know how it's troubling to not see that "redress." This is a point I struggle with in my walk. I don't know why - I have faith in many other things but I haven't always seen God bring evil people to justice. It's something of a stumbling block.
Thou wilt shew me the path of life:
in Thy presence is fulness of joy;
at Thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.'

(Psalm 16:11)

Hello @Soverign Grace,

Your post brings to mind a psalm of Asaph, Psalm 73, in which we can see that when he is occupied with God he is at peace (v.1); when he looks at others his feet almost slip (v.2) and results in discontent (v.3). In verses 1-12 he looks at the wicked and sees their prosperity which results in destraction (vv.13-16). The remedy he finds in the sanctuary, in God's presence (v.17) for there he is enabled to 'see' their 'end'.

In verses 21-28 he sees his error, and grieves at being so occupied with others and with the wicked, and confesses to God; peace follows as once again he is occupied only with God.

The Lord has often used this psalm to bless me, and another by Asaph (Psa.77 - occupation with self - result misery), of a similar nature, for I, like you, at times get occupied with these other things, and lose my peace at times.

* Occupation with God = Joy! - Praise God!

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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"BOL", is a forum member. A self-described "educator/teacher" of Catholic Teachings,
with the pseudonym
"BreadOfLife".

(His most recent "teaching" IS;
Mark 10:18.....(is true according to BOL)
Luke 19:19.....(is true according to BOL)
Luke 23:50 .....(is not true according to BOL)

God Bless,
Taken
Hi @Taken,

Oh, I see. Thank you for telling me. However, I don't understand: for all of these are the written word so must be 'True'??

'And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good?
there is none good but one,
that is, God.'

(Mar 10:18)

'And he said likewise to him,
Be thou also over five cities.'

(Luke 19:19)

'And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor;
and he was a good man, and a just:'

(Luke 23:50)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris
 

Taken

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Hi @Taken,

Oh, I see. Thank you for telling me. However, I don't understand: for all of these are the written word so must be 'True'??

'And Jesus said unto him,
Why callest thou me good?
there is none good but one,
that is, God.'

(Mar 10:18)

'And he said likewise to him,
Be thou also over five cities.'

(Luke 19:19)

'And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor;
and he was a good man, and a just:'

(Luke 23:50)

Within the love of Christ our Saviour.
Chris

Absolutely, I TrUST to BELIEVE ALL Scripture IS TRUE.

BOL flat out proclaims his own picking and choosing of WHICH Scriptures "he" Believes and WHICH Scriptures "he" does NOT Believe.

I completely REJECT "his" teaching.

"His defense to his teaching being correct" ?

People who do not AGREE with him, are liars.

Hokey and Laughable to me.

God Bless,
Taken
 

Soverign Grace

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I hold to the Traditional Protestant interprettaion of prophecy: Historicism, which teaches the Antichrist is the papal system in Rome, but most others here adopt the JESUIT version of prophecy which says there's a 2,000 year gap between the 69th and 70th Week of Daniel, that the Antichrist is a single evil dude coming during the "last seven years of trib", etc. Therefore, I also believe that the means by which Protestantism will be overthrown in America is directly tied to papal influence.

You can literally draw a line that separates the abject poverty, out of control crime, and gross immorality that characterizes Catholic countries in contrast to the (once upon a time) moral, prosperous, Christian fundamentalist nations that are Protestant. The massive influx of poor Catholics to America, along with the Secret Society Lucifer worshiping politicians who enable this with the 150B/year wasted on "solving" the problem of illegal immigration, will help to usher in a new Protestant Minority which will be fleeced of its wealth to support lazy, shiftless, criminals from the South who breed like rabbits and possess no family values whatsoever. I gave up on a political solution a long time ago. Only the coming of Jesus will stop those who make war against God and His faithful. They will run to the rocks and mountains and cry out to them to bury them from the face of our Lord, but they will pay for their crimes just the same.
I only learned about the antichrist being the papal system recently. Have you seen the photo of the hall in the Vatican that is designed like a serpent? Brakelite also posted a photo of a design of a dragon on the Vatican. I know what you mean about the mass migration here. I went to our local government building and it was packed with immigrants applying for welfare. That showed me that they're not coming here to work as the news fondly claims. Many were men - I was shocked. The news always shows the women coming here with a boatload of kids. I read that part of the plan to collapse America is to overwhelm it with mass migration straining the entitlement programs.

I gave up on believing that Trump was going to stop the mass migration. I'm 99% convinced that he's in on the conspiracy.
 

Soverign Grace

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No, I am saying that hell is simply the grave. All inferences that it is a place of fire and brimstone comes from first, Greek philosophy, then picked up by the Catholic church as she was plunging headlong into apostasy. She picked up a few other heresies along the way which Protestants seem reluctant to give up...like I said, hell is just the grave. No-one is now currently burning, anywhere. And only those in heaven are those who have been specially resurrected such as Moses' along with Enoch and Elijah. There are some others who were raised at the time of Jesus resurrection...His firstfruits...but everyone else are still in the grave waiting their resurrection, either of the righteous, or the wicked. There is no fire that destroys anyone until after the conclusion of the 1000 years, when fire destroys everything on the planet in preparation for its recreation.

I think this also suffers from philosophical influences from Greece. The place the fallen angels were 'bound' to was the earth. There are fallen angels all around us...I have seen them on occasion. Felt their presence more than once. They are not bound up in a prison somewhere unable to escape...Jesus met many of them...knew who they were, and they Him...and they knew what is coming to them in the end, pleading with Jesus, "not yet". But their time, and of wicked humanity, is surely coming, and it will come all at once, of varying degrees of intensity as befitting the crimes committed. Those people who knew not Christ, but lived but a short time in sin and rebellion will suffer the least (with few stripes) before they are destroyed, the devil and his angels, the demons, will suffer the longest, but eventually, they also will be destroyed. No-one is immortal...not even angels.

What about the verse "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?" If one is in the grave there won't be that.
 
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OzSpen

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I would hope men taking on a project of Translating Scripture from the Hebrew Language, or the Greek Language, or the Latin Languange (sic), etc. to ANY other Language, would be a project EFFECTED by men VERY Knowledgable (sic) in BOTH Languages.

What does THAT have to DO with "understanding the MEANING of Gods (sic) Word, according to God" ?

Taken,

Don't you understand that it takes etymology (origin and changed meanings) of a word in the original languages to know the meaning of a word in OT and NT?

It has everything to do with understanding the meaning of God's Word. Without knowledgeable translators who know the grammar and syntax of the original languages, we would not have a Bible.

According to God, we need to "do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 ESV).

I obey God's word of "rightly handling the word of truth" when I translate from the original languages. That is the responsibility of all Bible translators, whether working for SIL or as a translator into an English Bible.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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What about the verse "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?" If one is in the grave there won't be that.

SG,

No, I am saying that hell is simply the grave.

That wasn't the case for the rich man in the event of the rich man and Lazarus.

Luke 16:22-24 (ERV) describes the rich man's (unbeliever's) experience in the Intermediate State (the afterlife):

The rich man also died and was buried. He was sent to the place of death [Hades] and was in great pain. He saw Abraham far away with Lazarus in his arms. He called, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me! Send Lazarus to me so that he can dip his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am suffering in this fire!’​

So does your "grave" for unbelievers have these people experiencing "great pain" and they are able to "call" and tell of the "suffering in this fire" that is happening in your definition of "the grave".

When you speak of the grave after death, do you refer to Hades, Gehenna or Tartarus?

Oz
 

OzSpen

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Easy. Give it to a team of charismatic/Pentecostals...they can translate the entire thing in 3 minutes using tongues and interpretation of tongues.;)

brakelite,

I respect God's genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit too much to accept that kind of cynical or jocular verbal slap down of Pentecostal-charismatics. Even if it comes with a wink. ;)

Oz
 

Taken

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Taken,

Don't you understand that it takes etymology (origin and changed meanings) of a word in the original languages to know the meaning of a word in OT and NT?

Don't you understand, I have no problem with men translating A WORD from one language to another?

It has everything to do with understanding the meaning of God's Word.

Not according to Scripture.

According to Scripture MAN is not CAPABLE of Understanding GODS WORD, (according to Gods Understanding).

According to Scripture IT IS GOD HIMSELF WHO gives a MAN, "UNDERSTANDING" of Gods WORD..."ACCORDING TO GODS UNDERSTANDING".

According to God, we need to "do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 ESV).

2 Tim 2:15
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Quoting 2 Tim 2:15 has nothing to do with a man receiving Gods Understanding from God.

I obey God's word of "rightly handling the word of truth" when I translate from the original languages. That is the responsibility of all Bible translators, whether working for SIL or as a translator into an English Bible.

Oz

That's nice.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
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Soverign Grace

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Taken,

Don't you understand that it takes etymology (origin and changed meanings) of a word in the original languages to know the meaning of a word in OT and NT?

It has everything to do with understanding the meaning of God's Word. Without knowledgeable translators who know the grammar and syntax of the original languages, we would not have a Bible.

According to God, we need to "do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth" (2 Tim 2:15 ESV).

I obey God's word of "rightly handling the word of truth" when I translate from the original languages. That is the responsibility of all Bible translators, whether working for SIL or as a translator into an English Bible.

Oz
That's a good point.

I wonder how so many believers can hold such disparate views and yet obviously all have the Spirit of Christ. Spiritual growth is fraught with pitfalls it seems.