Without unconditional Election,no one would be saved.

[CoreIssue]

So, you won't even answer a simple question? Is loving God a good work? I think it is.

This is already been discussed several times.

I did answer again you just continue to not like the answer.

 

[Mjh29]

This is already been discussed several times.

I did answer again you just continue to not like the answer.

I do not remember asking you this. I think you assume you know what I am saying.
Is it a good work to love God? Is it something good to do?

 

[Earburner]

Are you saying that Scripture teaches that the comforter did not come until Pentecost or at any other time in the New Testament?

To God Be The Glory

Yes! Pentecost was the first time that the Holy Spirit could dwell within someone permanently.

 

[CoreIssue]

ERROR – I am confident that you have no inkling as to understand the word “foreknew / foreknowledge,” therefore, I am challenging you, what is the meaning of the word “foreknew” in biblical terms and not by way of the secular dictionary?

To God Be The Glory

I do not remember asking you this. I think you assume you know what I am saying.
Is it a good work to love God? Is it something good to do?

Does not matter if you asked not. It was asked and discussed.

Because you failed to read what everybody is saying saying does not mean come on and challenge them to make up for your omission.

 

[Enoch111]

...I am challenging you, what is the meaning of the word “foreknew” in biblical terms...

That's an excellent idea since it totally refutes Calvinism.

Strong's Concordance
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely,ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5;οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, Romans 8:29
(τῶν εἰς αὐτόν(Χριστόν) πιστεύειν προεγνωσμενων, Justin Martyr, dialog contr Trypho...

So according to the "BIBLE DEFINITION" God "knew beforehand" those who would (1) love Him and (2) be fit to be conformed to the image (likeness) of His Son.

1. Since God knows the end from the beginning, He knows exactly who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and who will not.

2. Therefore they are elected or predestined according to His foreknowledge "TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON" (1Pet 1:2; Rom 8:29).

3. This is NOT predestination for salvation (as falsely taught by Calvinism) but predestination for perfection and glorification. Just as Christ is absolutely perfect (physically, morally, and spiritually) God wants every child of God to resemble Him -- hence "image" or "likeness".

Now will any Calvinist here honestly admit that they have been indoctrinated with false doctrines, and its time to go back to square one? Let's see how honest the *elect* are before God and man.

 

[Jun2u]

Yes! Pentecost was the first time that the Holy Spirit could dwell within someone permanently

I thought so. As I've suspected all along you do not know your Bible. Read Psalms 51:11

To God Be The Glory

 

[APAK]

@Enoch111 ..I'm confused by your statement you wrote: "...This is NOT predestination for salvation (as falsely taught by Calvinism) but predestination for perfection and glorification...."

Is not our knowledge of being saved also the same as one who is conforming to the image of Christ's spirit? And is this knowledge of our salvation the same as God's foreknowledge of our salvation? And is this knowledge of our salvation then our own destiny (unless you do not believe in OSAS) and therefore God's pre-destiny for us?

These terms of predestination and foreknowledge can get all muddled if we try to view God's perspective on them as scripture views them, from our own 3-D Time, limited view that scripture does not speak to. It is always from God's perspective and not ours on this subject.

I'm not a so-called Calvinist, although I do read and study scripture and the spirit has lead me to believe in the Augustine, Luther and then later I guess the Calvin view on this subject.

Now I do believe that God does not randomly select those he shall save or those he shall damn. That is not scriptural at all. What is however, is that God foreknows the hearts of people and some are foreknown and therefore predestined to support his purpose of being saved and conforming to Christ's spirit for his Kingdom. Unfortunately the hard truth is that many have hearts not worthy of salvation or supporting God's purpose. And those he truly saved shall enter his Kingdom as Christ as its head.

BL: God foreknew our hearts and their future actions (using their own wills and purposes), and based on this foreknowledge determined (using his will and purpose) who shall be predetermined, predestined or preordained for the Kingdom. He made it so and it happened, period!
(Romans 8:26-30).

And I definitely agree with the title of this thread in that salvation is unconditional based on God's actions not ours: knowledge our our hearts and actions beforehand and our suitability for his purpose....building the Kingdom...and more.


Bless you,

APAK

 

[Earburner]

I thought so. As I've suspected all along you do not know your Bible. Read Psalms 51:11

To God Be The Glory

No, to you "I thought so". You may know all the Bible words, but you don't know "His thoughts and ways" about them. Therefore, you have no other option but to "lean unto your own understanding" .
.
I explained it fully when I wrote about the Blood of Christ removing sin, whereas the blood of animals cannot remove sin. The Holy Spirit cannot dwell WITHIN a person permanently, until they are made to be Holy (sinless) in the eyes of the Father.
Again, only the Blood of Christ can remove sin!!

 

[Earburner]

Jun2u, do you comprehend anything about HOW we are hid with Christ in God?
Col. 3[3] For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
By faith in the Blood of His Sacrifice, WE ARE MADE to be Holy before God!
That is how the words of Jesus are fulfilled. "Be ye holy" is not a thing to do, but rather is a state of being, as a new creature (creation).
That was NOT the case for the OT Saints. The Blood of Christ was NOT YET SHED for them. Therefore it was IMPOSSIBLE for them to have the Holy Spirit with them forever. That was/is the "promise" that they were waiting for, which took place on Pentecost, and ever since then.

Now you go and re-learn your Bible, but with His understanding, and not your own! Isa. 55:8-9.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

"Enoch111
[So according to the "BIBLE DEFINITION" God "knew beforehand" those who would (1) love Him and (2) be fit to be conformed to the image (likeness) of His Son.]
lol..wrong again;
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

 

[Enoch111]

"Enoch111
[So according to the "BIBLE DEFINITION" God "knew beforehand" those who would (1) love Him and (2) be fit to be conformed to the image (likeness) of His Son.]
lol..wrong again;
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Another DODGE instead of honesty. God so loved THE WORLD, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Why are Calvinists dishonest with Scripture?

 

[Enoch111]

Is not our knowledge of being saved also the same as one who is conforming to the image of Christ's spirit? And is this knowledge of our salvation the same as God's foreknowledge of our salvation? And is this knowledge of our salvation then our own destiny (unless you do not believe in OSAS) and therefore God's pre-destiny for us?

There is nothing confusing in what I have said.

1. Calvinists teach that some are predestined for eternal life (salvation).

2. The Bible says that eternal life is God's gift to the one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and that all may be saved.

3. If no one is predestined for eternal life (which is Bible truth) then what is the purpose of predestination?

4. The answer is clearly given in Romans 8:29 -- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

5. No one is automatically perfected and made sinless when they are saved. But God's ultimate purpose is not only to save from the penalty and power of sin, but to save from the very presence of sin. Render each child of God perfect.

6. Thus we have the next verse: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

7. So glorification is all about perfection, and perfection is all about being fully conformed to the image of His son. None of us is presently sinless or glorified. But we are saved, and we are being sanctified by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. At the Resurrection/Rapture we shall all be perfected: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 Jn 3:2)

So I trust this matter is now crystal clear.

 

[Jun2u]

[QUOTE="Enoch111, post: 532436, member: 7853"]Now will any Calvinist here honestly admit that they have been indoctrinated with false doctrines, and its time to go back to square one? Let's see how honest the *elect* are before God and man.[/QUOTE]

Don’t speak about yourself it becomes you!

If you remember I said to define the word “foreknow / foreknowledge” the way God meant the meaning to be. That is to define them biblically (my words).

I’ve known this word “foreknowledge” for years and was surprised when BoL came up with the word “proginosko” which I agree with him to mean the biblical interpretation “to experience.”

I want us to agree and be sure that we are on the same page if I equate the word “fore” to mean “before.”

You’ve also introduced the word “love” in your post and I want you to remember that as well, for It will play a great part in what I have to say. So pay attention. BTW, the word “knew” in the Bible also means “love” if you didn’t know it already. Pardon the pun.

I’m afraid I’ll have to lay another bomb on your lap. I hope the explosion won’t be too great and damaging this time.

Rom 11:1-2
1) “I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.”
2) “God hath not cast away his people he foreknew…”

This word “foreknew” does not mean “knew before” the context won’t allow it, rather fore = before, knew = love… iow, “loved before”.

Scripture support…

Genesis 4:1
“And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain...”

Genesis 4:17
“And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch (you should have known about this one).

Genesis 4:25
“And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth…

Somehow, I have a feeling you guys will find a way to distort the contents of this post.

It will not matter for you guys are exposed.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Earburner]

Jun2u,
The meaning of the word "knew" has many variations in the Hebrew. Keeping in line with how the word "knew" is being applied in Gen. 1:17, it is generally understood to be the act of sexual intercourse.
As to what else one wants to do with the word "knew", it's quite evident from the following, that anyone can fabricate what they want.
However, from your perspective, it causes me to understand the word " foreknowledge" better than I do.
Word: RCI

Pronounce: yaw-dah'

Strong: H3045

Orig: a primitive root; to know (properly, to ascertain by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, recognition; and causatively, instruction, designation, punishment, etc.) (as follow):--acknowledge, acquaintance(-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be aware, (un-)awares, can(-not), certainly, comprehend, consider, X could they, cunning, declare, be diligent, (can, cause to) discern, discover, endued with, familiar friend, famous, feel, can have, be (ig-)norant, instruct, kinsfolk, kinsman, (cause to let, make) know, (come to give, have, take) knowledge, have (knowledge), (be, make, make to be, make self) known, + be learned, + lie by man, mark, perceive, privy to, X prognosticator, regard, have respect, skilful, shew, can (man of) skill, be sure, of a surety, teach, (can) tell, understand, have (understanding), X will be, wist, wit, wot.

Use: TWOT-848 Verb

Grk Strong: G143 G144 G191 G312 G319 G322 G518G611 G1097 G1107 G1109 G1110 G1166 G1213 G1231G1263 G1291 G1321 G1492 G1717 G1718 G1804 G1921G1983 G1987 G1990 G2816 G3129 G3627 G3835 G4337G4591 G4908 G4920 G4982 G5214 G5318 G5384

1. 
   1) to know
   1a) (Qal)
   1a1) to know
   1a1a) to know, learn to know
   1a1b) to perceive
   1a1c) to perceive and see, find out and discern
   1a1d) to discriminate, distinguish
   1a1e) to know by experience
   1a1f) to recognise, admit, acknowledge, confess
   1a1g) to consider
   1a2) to know, be acquainted with
   1a3) to know (a person carnally)
   1a4) to know how, be skilful in
   1a5) to have knowledge, be wise
   1b) (Niphal)
   1b1) to be made known, be or become known, be revealed
   1b2) to make oneself known
   1b3) to be perceived
   1b4) to be instructed
   1c) (Piel) to cause to know
   1d) (Poal) to cause to know
   1e) (Pual)
   1e1) to be known
   1e2) known, one known, acquaintance (participle)
   1f) (Hiphil) to make known, declare
   1g) (Hophal) to be made known
   1h) (Hithpael) to make oneself known, reveal oneself

 

[Earburner]

^ Correction: Gen. 4:17

 

[APAK]

There is nothing confusing in what I have said.

1. Calvinists teach that some are predestined for eternal life (salvation).

2. The Bible says that eternal life is God's gift to the one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and that all may be saved.

3. If no one is predestined for eternal life (which is Bible truth) then what is the purpose of predestination?

4. The answer is clearly given in Romans 8:29 -- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

5. No one is automatically perfected and made sinless when they are saved. But God's ultimate purpose is not only to save from the penalty and power of sin, but to save from the very presence of sin. Render each child of God perfect.

6. Thus we have the next verse: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

7. So glorification is all about perfection, and perfection is all about being fully conformed to the image of His son. None of us is presently sinless or glorified. But we are saved, and we are being sanctified by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. At the Resurrection/Rapture we shall all be perfected: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 Jn 3:2)

So I trust this matter is now crystal clear.

Let me try and understand your response...and regardless on what a Calvinist thinks.
Let me also use your points.....In:
1. I would not go as far to say that by inference for example those that are not predestined for salvation are 'dead meat.' They are however destined for wrath and God never appointed anyone to wrath although the heart is something God cannot tame if left to its own desires than is hardened. We do not know exactly what happens to those that are not in the Kingdom. I would not speculate to much here...imo
Yes, some are predestined to salvation, in the Kingdom, as I said before.

2. You statement is correct although it requires some serious contextual understanding. True repentance only occurs by first God searching the heart that he chooses to save for his Kingdom. God requires this knowledge, to know the of the type of spirit we are! Are we suited or not.

God then does two very important things: Makes himself aware to us, beside the (external) call through the gospel, and then draws us or compels us to him. He does things in different ways to different folks. We then do the next step WITH God's Help. We are affected by the presence of God already in our heart and THEN we truly repent. We first DECIDE to restrain or allow our carnal mind to 'chill' out and become a doormat for a bit. God all while provides us the strength or to have faith to make this decision within our heart to give it to God..etc.

When I read your point 2, that is a common one, I read that YOU, and YOU alone decide to repent one day because you read it is a gift from God, and that's it you are saved. Of course scripture is understood and unlocked by the spirit of God and not through our carnal mind. Just reading with carnality and deciding to OBEY means nothing without the spirit's presence...imo

3 and 4. Not true, predestination is scriptural and a very important concept as I have discussed. And Romans 8:29 is an example of it. I believe you might be wrapped around axle on 'who whom he did foreknow.' This means he knew the heart was suited for his purpose as I said before. He shall save that person and there is nothing anyone can do to stop it including the person in question...as I strongly eluded to already.

5. Yes, no one in the present state is perfected and sinless when they are saved. However, God does not 'see' the carnal natural mind and sin any more, he sees 'no sin' he sees the new heart of the person because they have his son's spirit living there.

6. Yes of course and based on the collective responses I already gave for my previous answers.

and 7, is all true if one is truly saved and except for one important err I see. Conforming to Christ is being perfected. We have not reached perfection yet and are presently working out our salvation unto Glorification = Perfect when we are raised into our new spiritual bodies.

I hope I did not rush this important subject.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Earburner]

There is nothing confusing in what I have said.

1. Calvinists teach that some are predestined for eternal life (salvation).

2. The Bible says that eternal life is God's gift to the one who repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and that all may be saved.

3. If no one is predestined for eternal life (which is Bible truth) then what is the purpose of predestination?

4. The answer is clearly given in Romans 8:29 -- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

5. No one is automatically perfected and made sinless when they are saved. But God's ultimate purpose is not only to save from the penalty and power of sin, but to save from the very presence of sin. Render each child of God perfect.

6. Thus we have the next verse: Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

7. So glorification is all about perfection, and perfection is all about being fully conformed to the image of His son. None of us is presently sinless or glorified. But we are saved, and we are being sanctified by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. At the Resurrection/Rapture we shall all be perfected: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 Jn 3:2)

So I trust this matter is now crystal clear.

4. The answer is clearly given in Romans 8:29 -- For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

The concept of God's "foreknowledge" is in His own mind, of how He thought of the people in future generations (many brethren), that He would "draw" to come to believe in His Son, and then be made "partakers of the divine nature".
I believe that God's foreknowledge of that, was nothing more than a general overview of what HE hoped to achieve in saving as many as He can, for "whosoever will".
And for them who do believe in Jesus, the plan for them to be conformed to the image of His Son, was predestinated before the world began

 

[Enoch111]

2) “God hath not cast away his people he foreknew…”

It is the very same word -- proginóskó -- which is used elsewhere and means exactly the same thing -- knew beforehand. So once again your bomb is a damp squib, and you are also trying to make Scripture mean what you want it to mean, vainly trying to support false doctrines. That is called wresting or twisting the Scriptures.

And then you introduce the delicate word for sexual intimacy -- "knew" (KJV) -- to somehow represent "know beforehand" -- Divine foreknowledge! Amazing. Adam did not know anything beforehand before he *knew" Eve.

But you and others have already proved what I has said earlier. Those who are snared by the doctrines of men rarely -- IF EVER -- repent of their false beliefs. They will argue, and argue, and argue incessantly.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Another DODGE instead of honesty. God so loved THE WORLD, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. Why are Calvinists dishonest with Scripture?

God so loved the world
That he gave His Son
That everyone believing.
That is what you cannot face....here is a hint
Everyone believing does not equal everyone ever born.
God never intended to save everyone.
Jesus came to save the elect children the Father gave to Him.
They alone are the everyone believing...sorry to burst your bubble my friend, the bible does not teach Universalism. It does not teach everyone gets an equal opportunity.
If everyone wants to repent and believe right this minute. ..they would be saved.
Something happened..Man's fall into sin ,death, and rebellion. They do not want to.
There is none who seek after God , no, not one. Your posting error does not change truth.
Try the truth of scripture.

 

[farouk]

No, they are chosen if God chooses them. Saying they can choose themselves unto salvation is like saying babies birth themselves. Sorry, doesn't happen.

It shows the great importance of humbling ourselves before the grace of God.