Smoke Screens?

[GodsGrace]

It is truly amazing that even though this chapter is found in the Bible, people do not understand the meaning of justification by grace through faith, and how it related to imputed righteousness. Every OT saint since Abel, and every NT saint was justified (saved) purely by grace through faith.

This is true E, and I agree.
I'm trying to explain something to @farouk that is along these lines.

Hebrews is speaking about salvation through faith.
Faith ALWAYS saved man...in the O.T. and the N.T.

But salvation in the sense of JUSTIFICATION lasts only a MOMENT.
We are declared justified....one second.

Instead being right with God,,,which we call today sanctification...lasts a life time and is on-going.

We have to be right with God for the rest of our lives....
not just one moment when we become saved....declared justified.

 

[farouk]

This is true E, and I agree.
I'm trying to explain something to @farouk that is along these lines.

Hebrews is speaking about salvation through faith.
Faith ALWAYS saved man...in the O.T. and the N.T.

But salvation in the sense of JUSTIFICATION lasts only a MOMENT.
We are declared justified....one second.

Instead being right with God,,,which we call today sanctification...lasts a life time and is on-going.

We have to be right with God for the rest of our lives....
not just one moment when we become saved....declared justified.

Surely being declared just by faith is a once for all act for time and eternity?

 

[GodsGrace]

Haha!! Not little questions. Big discussions.

1) No.

2) WITH qualifications.

We need to start a dedicated thread... we have too many cross conversations going on here...( NOT cross as in angry= different convos)

Will start a thead and tag everyone into it ...

Okay @GodsGrace @farouk @stunnedbygrace etc etc ??

Good by me....

 

[justbyfaith]

I will be looking for your new thread on this...

There is not a lot of new information that I would bring to the table that makes it a thread I would want to publish...and also not a hill that I would die on doctrinally (i.e. I consider it to be a peripheral issue).

But I have presented my case in post #298 (Smoke Screens?) above. Since I have nothing more to say on the matter; and since it is not an issue of primary importance as far as I can tell right now, I do not think that I will start an entire new thread on the issue.

If you want to start a thread with the title, "The devil didn't murder Jesus..." then by all means do so.

I think in such a case I would simply bring up John 8:44.

 

[Grailhunter]

I already told you...Satan entered into Judas Iscariot in order to accomplish the final betrayal of Jesus. Satan was directly responsible, therefore, for the crucifixion of the Son.

I suppose it brings up issues of predestination, whether it be according to foreknowledge or whether everything was specifically preordained by God.

I think that if everything was completely preordained by God, that that makes God the author of sin.

But God is only indirectly the author of sin; in that He created His creation with the positive attribute of free will; which had the capacity of turning to evil. As it is written:

Rom 8:20, For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

God gave man free will, knowing that it would result in evil; but He did so in the hope that those who would choose good might experience the ultimate good when all is said and done.

All this to say that God was not responsible for the death of Jesus. From the perspective of being outside of time, He knew it would happen; and He even foreordained it to happen because He knew it to be a perfect plan to redeem humanity.

But I will say that it was the devil who struck the blow that killed the Son of God.

To think otherwise is to not understand what happened in those days as is recorded in the gospels.

Not being fastidious...do you know the scripture that says Satan "entered" into Judas?

 

[Helen]

There is not a lot of new information that I would bring to the table that makes it a thread I would want to publish...and also not a hill that I would die on doctrinally (i.e. I consider it to be a peripheral issue).

But I have presented my case in post #298 (Smoke Screens?) above. Since I have nothing more to say on the matter; and since it is not an issue of primary importance as far as I can tell right now, I do not think that I will start an entire new thread on the issue.

If you want to start a thread with the title, "The devil didn't murder Jesus..." then by all means do so.

I think in such a case I would simply bring up John 8:44.

Sounds good...will start a new thread and tag you.

 

[GodsGrace]

Surely being declared just by faith is a once for all act for time and eternity?

Now you're getting into eternal security...preservation of the saints....OSAS.

I believe in conditional eternal security.
IF we are IN CHRIST, we are saved.

IF we are NOT IN CHRIST, we cannot be saved.

The life is IN CHRIST...therefore we must be IN HIM for salvation.

John 15:5-6

 

[Grailhunter]

Not being fastidious...do you know the scripture that says Satan "entered" into Judas?

Found it John 13:27

 

[farouk]

Now you're getting into eternal security...preservation of the saints....OSAS.

I believe in conditional eternal security.
IF we are IN CHRIST, we are saved.

IF we are NOT IN CHRIST, we cannot be saved.

The life is IN CHRIST...therefore we must be IN HIM for salvation.

John 15:5-6

I don't see the lesson of John 15 being about "staying saved"; rather, about fruitbearing. Romans 8 and John's First Epistle are very strong on the believer's assurance.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sounds good...will start a new thread and tag you.

Be sure to make your case in the OP.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are declared justified....one second.

Instead being right with God,,,which we call today sanctification...lasts a life time and is on-going.

Justification (and faith) is something that affects the heart of a man so that he will do good works when given the opportunity.

That being said, I will declare that salvation and the imputation of God's righteousness to us begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6).

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't see the lesson of John 15 being about "staying saved"; rather, about fruitbearing. Romans 8 and John's First Epistle are very strong on the believer's assurance.

I'm willing to take one at a time...

John 15:1-6 is very clear indeed.

Here's the whole scripture:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither canyou unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

1. Jesus is THE VINE. God Father is the vine dresser.

2. Every branch that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT...God Father takes away. God cuts the dead branch that does not bear fruit from the Vine.
IF, instead, the vine DOES bear fruit,,,,God Father prunes the vine so that it will produce even more fruit. IOW, God gives us more strength and grace to do His will.

3. We are "clean" because Jesus has spoken the word to us. God Father has already pruned us believers...we are clean.

4. A branch, us, cannot bear fruit if it is not attached to the vine...Jesus.

5. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches....if we are not attached to HIM,,,the vine, we can do nothing.

6. If anyone DOES NOT ABIDE in Him, that person is thrown away like a branch that dries up, the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.


So do you think the above is about fruit bearing....
or staying saved?

What happens to the branches that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT?

We need to come to scripture with a fresh mind and read it and grasp what Jesus is trying to tell us.

 

[GodsGrace]

Justification (and faith) is something that affects the heart of a man so that he will do good works when given the opportunity.

That being said, I will declare that salvation and the imputation of God's righteousness to us begins with faith, ends with faith, and is by faith all the way through (Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:1-3, Colossians 2:6).

Agreed.

Faith is required to be saved.
No faith....No salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

Faith has within its connotation a situation of abiding in Him.

If someone is not abiding in Him, it is because they do not have faith...and vice versa.

We abide in faith, as a matter of fact; and we also abide by and through faith.

 

[farouk]

I'm willing to take one at a time...

John 15:1-6 is very clear indeed.

Here's the whole scripture:

1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2“Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3“You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4“Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither canyou unless you abide in Me.
5“I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

1. Jesus is THE VINE. God Father is the vine dresser.

2. Every branch that DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT...God Father takes away. God cuts the dead branch that does not bear fruit from the Vine.
IF, instead, the vine DOES bear fruit,,,,God Father prunes the vine so that it will produce even more fruit. IOW, God gives us more strength and grace to do His will.

3. We are "clean" because Jesus has spoken the word to us. God Father has already pruned us believers...we are clean.

4. A branch, us, cannot bear fruit if it is not attached to the vine...Jesus.

5. Jesus is the vine, we are the branches....if we are not attached to HIM,,,the vine, we can do nothing.

6. If anyone DOES NOT ABIDE in Him, that person is thrown away like a branch that dries up, the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.


So do you think the above is about fruit bearing....
or staying saved?

What happens to the branches that DO NOT BEAR FRUIT?

We need to come to scripture with a fresh mind and read it and grasp what Jesus is trying to tell us.

There's no evidence that the dead branch was ever eternally living and secure in the first place. Romans 8.38-39 seems very clear about eternal security.

 

[justbyfaith]

There's no evidence that the dead branch was ever eternally living and secure in the first place. Romans 8.38-39 seems very clear about eternal security.

The branch may be on the vine physically...but not connected enough to draw up nourishment from it so that it can bear good fruit.

 

[justbyfaith]

Therefore it can be determined whether a branch is truly connected, by whether it bears good fruit or not.

Which is not to say that good fruit saves the branch.

The branch is saved unto the bearing of good fruit; and the good fruit is the only true evidence that the branch is connected securely to the vine.

 

[GodsGrace]

There's no evidence that the dead branch was ever eternally living and secure in the first place. Romans 8.38-39 seems very clear about eternal security.

Oh F,
The branch produces fruit IF it's attached to the vine.
Even YOU said this in your post.

Read for yourself what happens to a branch that DOES NOT ABIDE in the vine.
Sometimes the truth is hard to take, but Jesus IS TRUTH.
We should heed His words since HE IS THE LIFE.

Now let's go to Romans 8:38-39

38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is true. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.
This is because God is stronger than any of the forces mentioned in these verses.

But did God not give us free will? You see everything you believe will depend on whether or not you believe you have free will.

IF you believe you have free will, then you also believe you can walk away from God under your own strength at any time you wish to.
Was free will taken away from you when you became saved?
Did you never have it to begin with?
This is a question upon which all hinges on the reply.

The bible teaches that we have free will.
I've given a lot of verses...
what about:
Psalms 54:6 what does free will mean in this verse?

Also, please read
Romans 8:37
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.

Again, we go back to the idea in John 15...
We conquer THROUGH HIM....IN HIM.

It is necessary to ABIDE IN HIM.
(live IN Him)

 

[GodsGrace]

The branch may be on the vine physically...but not connected enough to draw up nourishment from it so that it can bear good fruit.

@farouk has given you a like....
but in your very next post you fix what you said above, which is not very clear.

It's important when speaking about salvation issues to be VERY CLEAR in our speech.

If the branch is not drawing nourishment, it is not producing fruit.
The branches that do no produce fruit are CUT OFF.
John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT...
THE FATHER TAKES AWAY.

That is very clear indeed.

 

[farouk]

@farouk has given you a like....
but in your very next post you fix what you said above, which is not very clear.

It's important when speaking about salvation issues to be VERY CLEAR in our speech.

If the branch is not drawing nourishment, it is not producing fruit.
The branches that do no produce fruit are CUT OFF.
John 15:2 EVERY BRANCH THAT DOES NOT BEAR FRUIT...
THE FATHER TAKES AWAY.

That is very clear indeed.

Why do we suppose there was eternal life there in the first place?
John 10.28-29:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."