Do I Have To Go To Church?

[amadeus]

Hi Amadeus,

The Jews that Jesus was speaking to at the time would have known of passages in Deuteronomy concerning the law. Deuteronomy 17 and 19 speak of 2 or 3 witnesses gathered to testify in court. The witnesses were necessary to establish a case in court.

The problem with the laws cited in Deuteronomy is in having two reliable and honest witnesses to establish the Spirit of the law. As we see with Naboth this is not always the case When Naboth stand behind his right to retain his own God-given inheritance he ran up against Ahab the king and Jezebel [I Kings 21]. When he refused to sell or trade his land, they brought two men willing to lie and in accord with the 'letter' [as opposed to the Spirit] of the law Naboth, an innocent man, was stoned to death. The difference between that and Matt 18:20 is the "in my name", which Jesus stated. If it had been two men who were "in the name of Jesus" it would have been a better result for Naboth. When two or three are "in His name" Jesus is there as well.

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." Acts 4:12

With that in mind the Matthew 18:20 passage you reference should be put in context. In context that passage is about dealing with Sin in the Church or disciplining an erring brother. Or in a nutshell it deals with Church discipline.

Bible study Mary

Tell that to Naboth! He leaned on the law given by God to Moses and died. We have something better than mosaic law. Listen to Jesus here:

"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true."
John 5:31-32

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

 

[bbyrd009]

I think it may be a blessing from God to be able to see ourselves close to the way other people do.

Ha, I surely have my flaws, but I try not to let them show -- not to inflict them on others. I wonder if some people would call me a hypocrite?

ha theres always like this fine line huh

 

[bbyrd009]

not "the Church". It's one body with many members. And at set times the many members gather together. When that happens, they go to church.

the prob i have with that is now church is defined as "Christian believers who attend a congregation" and im not sure that can be defended

 

[Marymog]

yes, mary, that part is not the problem imo, its that we still call it "church" when its locked up and no ones there, which is the vast majority of the time, im sure? For most "churches" anyway? Iow "church" becomes associated with a place

hmm, just like heaven does! ha!

I see what you meant.

I think it is fair to say it does not cease to be a church (a "place" of worship) when it is locked up and no one is in it. So YES church (a building) is a "place" where we worship Him just like heaven is a place where we worship Him. And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen." Before the throne..... day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME'.

So if we don't call it a church what should we call it?

 

[Marymog]

The problem with the laws cited in Deuteronomy is in having two reliable and honest witnesses to establish the Spirit of the law. As we see with Naboth this is not always the case When Naboth stand behind his right to retain his own God-given inheritance he ran up against Ahab the king and Jezebel [I Kings 21]. When he refused to sell or trade his land, they brought two men willing to lie and in accord with the 'letter' [as opposed to the Spirit] of the law Naboth, an innocent man, was stoned to death. The difference between that and Matt 18:20 is the "in my name", which Jesus stated. If it had been two men who were "in the name of Jesus" it would have been a better result for Naboth. When two or three are "in His name" Jesus is there as well.

How could there have been two men present who were in the name of Jesus during Naboth's time? You have me a bit confused.

Curious Mary

 

[Marymog]

Tell that to Naboth! He leaned on the law given by God to Moses and died. We have something better than mosaic law. Listen to Jesus here:

"If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true."
John 5:31-32

"What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" Rom 8:31

A evil king killed Naboth for his land and somehow you are equating that to Matthew 18: 15-20 on how to handle Church discipline????

I don't get the connection....

 

[Ezra]

But this could also have been said about the Germans during the Nazi regime. They were so focused on their own lives they didn't notice how evil the society had become.

you cant judge all churches/local assemblies because of a experience you had . your comparison is way off. see i could say negative things about those who never attend church. but are christians.. church dont save you or keep you saved . but it is a refueling station/ hospital sanctuary

 

[Episkopos]

you cant judge all churches/local assemblies because of a experience you had . your comparison is way off. see i could say negative things about those who never attend church. but are christians.. church dont save you or keep you saved . but it is a refueling station/ hospital sanctuary

More of a hospital I'd say...and one that keeps you in your bed (pew) as a perpetual patient. It's the duty of a healthy believer to leave the system and rely on God. My wife and I went through most of the denominations looking for any exceptions. I searched for 10 years...and I still see in people the damage the system has created. Look at the level of unity on this forum! Divide and conquer. Sow discord! That's the way of dogmatics. Systems don't care about people. Systems serve systems and take away from people. You would have to understand how principalities work to understand why that is. The devil controls ALL the world's systems.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Well that sounds nice and all... But looking at it carefully it looks alot like Judges 17:6.

Thanks for your welcome reply, FHII. You most certainly have the authority and freedom to exhort and edify and admonish gatherings, both online and inhouse, with your well chosen text, perhaps including this one from Jeremiah...

Jer 5:30-31
(30) A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
(31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will you do in the end thereof?

...and also emphasising these verses from Hebrews. Christians gathering in simple fellowship works if sound doctrine such as you have expressed is spoken forth and taken seriously without everyone having to jump through institutional hoops.

Heb 10:22-29
(22) Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
(24) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
(25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
(28) He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
(29) Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Maybe when the real ministers of God have finished their work, we'll have moved up to here?

"Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:" Eph 4:13

Yes, you have hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head, Amadeus. Thankyou for implying there are phony servants (ministers) among the brethren. How many times does Scripture warn us about these?

Matthew 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time? Berean Study Bible.

1Pe 4:10-11
(10) As every man has received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.
(11) If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God gives: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Ezra]

More of a hospital I'd say...and one that keeps you in your bed (pew) as a perpetual patient. It's the duty of a healthy believer to leave the system and rely on God. My wife and I went through most of the denominations looking for any exceptions. I searched for 10 years...and I still see in people the damage the system has created. Look at the level of unity on this forum! Divide and conquer. Sow discord! That's the way of dogmatics. Systems don't care about people. Systems serve systems and take away from people. You would have to understand how principalities work to understand why that is. The devil controls ALL the world's systems.

most likely your problem is you cant find a church that dictates to your liking/belief .

.sorta of reminds me of looking for teachers with itchy ears . i can assure you the church i attend is a caring church .is it perfect ? nope we're a bunch of imperfect people. trying to serve a perfect Jesus . your never going to be satisfied. sorta of reminds me of the story of the missionary engineer that was on a deserted island due to a plane crash. he was the sole survivor . so he went to work built a home other buildings. then one day rescuers found him . as they admired the work he had done. he showed them 3 buildings . he said the 1st on is my home. the 2nd on os my church where i worship God . he said you see that other building over there. he said that is where i use to GO TO CHURCH .. study it out you will get it

 

[Ezra]

The devil controls ALL the world's systems.

that aint all he controls

 

[amadeus]

How could there have been two men present who were in the name of Jesus during Naboth's time? You have me a bit confused.

Curious Mary

You are the one who concluded that the verse in Matthew 18:20 was referring to church discipline and made the connection to the need of not less than two witnesses under the law of Moses. I was simply pointing out the difference for Naboth if instead of having his case judged based on the testimonies of fallible and evil men, his witnesses were men led by the Holy Spirit... that is men "in His name". I don't however that verse was speaking only about church discipline.

I see Jesus' words in Matt 18:20 relating rather to how we should always gather together in groups of not less than 2 or 3 in worship or prayer "in His name" to assure that He would also be present with us.

 

[FHII]

Thanks for your welcome reply, FHII. You most certainly have the authority and freedom to exhort and edify and admonish gatherings, both online and inhouse, with your well chosen text, perhaps including this one from Jeremiah...

Well, thanks! I appreciate that!

Jer 5:30-31
(30) A wonderful and horrible thing is committed in the land;
(31) The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will you do in the end thereof?

Very unfortunate, for sure.

...and also emphasising these verses from Hebrews. Christians gathering in simple fellowship works if sound doctrine such as you have expressed is spoken forth and taken seriously without everyone having to jump through institutional hoops.

I absolutely agree. On paper there is nothing wrong with large Churches. Jesus was known to draw crowds of 15,000 men (not including women and children).

The problem is it's hard to keep a crowd like that if you are preaching the whole truth and not cutting corners or adding some incentives. The Hebrews 10 scripture is the type of thing that tends to cut down crowds. People don't like being told that verses 25 and 26 are real.

Chances are pretty great that if any Church is telling the whole truth and not cutting corners, it's going to be small.

Jesus told quite a big crowd to eat his flesh and drink his blood. They didn't understand what he was saying and quit that Church.

I am not sure if you were being sarcastic or not... But I am serious in saying I support going to Church and Hebrews 10:25-26 are key verses of support.

[Sidenote: some will say that verse 25 could mean just hanging out with other believers at a coffee shop, visiting them at home or something... While that's good too, I seriously doubt that. I seriously doubt it means to simply hang out together with the dire warning of verses 26-28. I seriously doubt that means I shouldn't forsake a cookout or morning cup of coffee!]

I maintain Church is important, but understand it's tough to find one that isn't in a business format and is interested in seeking and preaching truth.

Church is precious. Faith is precious. Truth is precious and agape love is precious. It's precious because it's rare and/or (in some ways) fragile. It only takes a little leaven...

That in no way means we shouldn't seek it out.

 

[amadeus]

A evil king killed Naboth for his land and somehow you are equating that to Matthew 18: 15-20 on how to handle Church discipline????

I don't get the connection....

I was speaking about the advantage we should have in having the Holy Spirit lead us. The law of Moses was intended to prevent what happened to Naboth by not killing a man for a crime based on the testimony of only one other man. It did not work well, because too many men loved mammon in that time more than they loved God... even among those designated as God's people.

Of course, our advantage today is neglected because too many people who supposedly are followers of Jesus are not led by the Holy Spirit. I thought I made that clear but apparently not. Is it is too far outside of your experience?

Unfortunately few Catholics in my experience regularly walk in His name. Don't worry, because I must say the same thing for a great many non-Catholics 'would be' Christians I have known. This is the problem, I believe, with our nation and our world. In spite of what the polls say the number of so-called Christians walking daily even part of the time in His name is probably very few. We see that if we simply look around us every day.

 

[marksman]

That you have churches staffed by insecure ministers must be deeply disappointing.
It does not change what I said or the validity of what I said.

May I make a suggestion.
Contact the minister of the church whose teaching is the most biblical and ask him whether you could serve him in any way.
You want to serve and you can see the insecurities of many ministers, are you humble enough to willingly submit to their authority.

Story for you.
Duncan Campbell was converted at a mission near to his village and his life changed. He scontinued to attend the local 'kirk' despite finding nothing that fed his spiritual hunger.
It was several years later that he learnt that the unsaved minister had been deeply challenged by Duncan's faithfulness in attending his church and it played a big part in his eventual conversion.

Your faithfull service could lead to many Les well educated or spiritual aware leaders being taught and learning about the spirits leading.

Been there done that.

 

[marksman]

Well that is simply wrong. Yes, the Body of Christ is the Church, but that does not mean they can't "go to Church". Individuals are not "the Church". It's one body with many members. And at set times the many members gather together. When that happens, they go to church.

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

What I put in bold is the "church" of one body, many members. But what is underlined shows a designated meeting place, which "the church" was to gather at. So the people were the church, but so was the meeting place. The meeting place isn't special EXCEPT for the fact that it was where the Church is gathering at.

Marksman, you are not the Church. I am not the Church. The pastor isn't either. The church is a complete body of many members. And this verse says they meet in one place.

Yes, it is a rebuke, but not that they met in one place, but what happened when they did. There were divisions. Well, you can't have divisions if you are the Church by yourself!

By the way, the meeting place was a church; not a house! It might've been someone's home, but it ceased being so during the service. It became the Church BUILDING. otherwise, Paul would not have asked the rhetorical question of whether or not they had houses of their own to eat in.

The bottom line is that even though the Corinthians were doing wrong, they gathered together in a Church. So no... Your statement is not correct. The Church does indeed go to Church.

It is not wrong if you follow the original greek. The verse you spoke of in Greek the word for church is ekklesia which means called out ones so the church is comprised of called-out ones. When the called-out ones gather together that is the church. If you are not called out you are not the church. You can meet with a hundred others in a building but if you are not the called out ones you are not the church. You are just a meeting of religious people.

So the question is how many do you need to be a body of called-out ones? The answer is two as the scripture says where TWO or THREE are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst. I would rather meet with two or three where the Holy Spirit is present than meet with a 100 where the Holy Spirit is not present.

And there was no such thing as a service in the New Testament church. They met together for fellowship, prayer, teaching, and meals in homes that had upper rooms where they could all sit around and talk, share, eat and pray. The New Testament church did not have 30 minutes of singing. They finished their gathering with a song. These meetings were the responsibility of Elders, not pastors as in the NT Church, a pastor was never in charge. His ministry was shepherding the sheep as a shepherd did in NT church times.

In the Greek, the meeting place has never been designated the church. In Matthew 16:18 it says that Jesus was going to build his church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. The church here is ekklesia, called out ones, not a building. In Matthew 18:17, it says "And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican."

What is the point of telling a building and have you heard a building speak?

Acts 5:11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things. Have you ever seen great fear come upon a building?

These are some of the problems you encounter when you try and make a doctrine out of one verse of scripture which is a no-no when you are doing exegesis. I avoided this when I spent two years studying the church for a Ph.D.

 

[FHII]

It is not wrong if you follow the original greek. The verse you spoke of in Greek the word for church is ekklesia which means called out ones so the church is comprised of called-out ones.

Strong's Greek: 1577. ἐκκλησία (ekklésia) -- an assembly, a (religious) congregation

No, it means an assembly. They were assembled. It does not mean "the called out ones" in a scattered sense. There may be called out ones in Chicago, New York, London, Paris and Jerusalem. They are all the Church. True, but this verse isn't talking in that sense. It's talking to those in Corinth who gathered together in one place. If you want to disect the verse word for word, that's fine. I will read what the verse says to get it's meaning.

1 Corinthians 11:18 KJV
For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

"When he come together"... And "in the Church". It's meaning is clear!

The answer is two as the scripture says where TWO or THREE are gathered together in my name, I am in the midst.

There were what? 120 in the upper room? That's a few more than 2 or 3.

. I would rather meet with two or three where the Holy Spirit is present than meet with a 100 where the Holy Spirit is not present.

And I don't care how many are present, as long as the Holy spirit is there. If there are 120 people there and the Holy spirit is there... I'd rather be there then around 2 or 3 without the spirit.

In the Greek, the meeting place has never been designated the church

Well, it actually did in 1 For 11:18. Already showed that to be true. The verse and chapter doesn't make sense if the called out ones are meeting in the called out ones.

What is the point of telling a building and have you heard a building speak?

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Even the sentence structure itself makes no sense. A church is an assembly. And in context wherever they meet whether it be a grove, a park, a house or a building is where they meet and it is the assembling place.

These are some of the problems you encounter when you try and make a doctrine out of one verse of scripture which is a no-no when you are doing exegesis. I avoided this when I spent two years studying the church for a Ph.D.

Did they actually give you one?

Well that was a bit rude of me, I know... Sorry about that. But did you really expect to impress me with that?

Am I "trying" to make a doctrine? I'm saying Christian's should gather together in one place. Is that a doctrine I'm trying to make or is it something they actually did in the NT? I truly believe I can find more than a few verses where people gathered together for a Church service. Jesus had 15,000 attend one of his (not including women and children). That's a few more than 2 or 3. And they were all in one place at the same time.

This verse isn't that difficult to understand. It's made difficult when you try to force meaning on a word when it doesn't fit. It's like looking at a tree instead of the whole forest.

The context of this verse is that the called out ones assembled and met in an appointed place.

Why else would Paul be rebuking them for stuff they should've been doing in their own houses instead of in Church?

 

[Episkopos]

most likely your problem is you cant find a church that dictates to your liking/belief .

.sorta of reminds me of looking for teachers with itchy ears . i can assure you the church i attend is a caring church .is it perfect ? nope we're a bunch of imperfect people. trying to serve a perfect Jesus . your never going to be satisfied. sorta of reminds me of the story of the missionary engineer that was on a deserted island due to a plane crash. he was the sole survivor . so he went to work built a home other buildings. then one day rescuers found him . as they admired the work he had done. he showed them 3 buildings . he said the 1st on is my home. the 2nd on os my church where i worship God . he said you see that other building over there. he said that is where i use to GO TO CHURCH .. study it out you will get it

All the churches of today are based on religious ideologies...not spiritual life. The itching ears have already had their say. But if you are satisfied in a dead church...be my guest.

 

[bbyrd009]

I think it is fair to say it does not cease to be a church (a "place" of worship) when it is locked up and no one is in it.

ah.
If we define Church as "living stones" i guess i disagree

So YES church (a building) is a "place" where we worship Him just like heaven is a place where we worship Him.

well, imo you cant worship
yah in a building full of like-minded anyway; that would be called a "love feast" i think, and not worship?

the kingdom of heaven is within you.

So if we don't call it a church what should we call it?

ah, well, if those there believe they are going to heaven after they have died, "synagogue of satan" maybe?

How could there have been two men present who were in the name of Jesus during Naboth's time? You have me a bit confused.

Curious Mary

before Abraham was, I AM?
.

And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen." Before the throne..... day and night they do not cease to say, "HOLY, HOLY, HOLY is THE LORD GOD, THE ALMIGHTY, WHO WAS AND WHO IS AND WHO IS TO COME'.

... the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit
upon a throne of his glory;

imo it is at least educational to contemplate your vv there as familiar metaphors used to characterize Spirit, and in this case other spirits--xlated to us as "angels" right--without necessarily abandoning a literal pov, at least right away.

That is a vision, right