Regeneration before or after saving faith

[reformed1689]

What else?
Romans 3:22, ESV: "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:"
Doesn't "all" mean all?
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
All who believe, no distinction, no coerced conversions. What is so hard to understand about " all.?

Yes, but who believe? Those that are given to Christ. Those that are allowed to come to Christ. Romans 3:22 does not say otherwise.

 

[Dcopymope]

You are taking so many verses out of context to fit a narrative.

.....Yet this is what you've been doing the whole time.

All men as in not just Jews but also Gentiles.
Not willing that any should perish, who is that referring to? The Elect.

Who is that referring to? Well, if I were to accept the Biblical definition of the word "gentile", then it means he is not willing that anyone among non-Jewish nations should perish, but that all should hear the gospel, be convicted of their sin through the spirit, come to repentance, and become "the elect". According to you, his desire "that all should come to repentance" only means those who are already "the elect", which makes zero sense, because you are starting with the conclusion of the process and not the beginning.

All who the Father gives to the Son do in fact come to the Son.

Uh huh, and according to scripture, it doesn't start with the holy spirit magically "drawing all to God", it starts with them coming to the knowledge of the gospel, which ain't happening unless they heard it to begin with. Otherwise, the angel God sends into the world to preach the message in the last days is wasting his time.

(Revelation 14:6-7) "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, {7} Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

 

[Renniks]

Yes, but who believe? Those that are given to Christ. Those that are allowed to come to Christ. Romans 3:22 does not say otherwise.

Allowed? Where's it say only some are allowed? It says whosoever will.

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's funny that you think you were free in any sense while lost showing you really do not understand the Gospel or the lost state of man.

Jesus says we weren't free, but slaves, and only free when set free by him. Hmmm. But you teach the contrary.

He has to set us free due to our wills being enslaved to sin. Your errant teaching is therefore contrary to his.

Note John 8:31ff. I hope you will see your error and finally give God all the glory. As of now? You're fighting to give yourself credit and glory, it is what you do, focus on you and what you did.

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

 

[Paul Christensen]

Second, Christ did not die for the sins of every person.

True. He died for the sins of all those who believed in Him as the Messiah to come, and those who believed in the Messiah who died and rose from the dead.

Third, just because it is commanded to preach the Gospel to every nation does not mean each person is elect or even has the potential to be elect.

Election is conditional on a person having faith in Christ's finished work on Calvary.

Fourth, it does not say that God's will is to save each individual person. If that were the case, all would be saved.

The Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but because He did not create programmable robots, but people with the ability to choose to believe or not believe the gospel, He knows that some will believe and be saved, and others will be lost.

 

[FollowHim]

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

It's a good question. I think like seeing babies, when they are alive and kicking you know it took place

Jesus put the emphasis on the word taking root and producing fruit. Over emphasis on spiritual moment realities brought about by God will not make them happen, stop them or change them.

The apostles spoke more about the presence of the holy spirit, and walking on Jesus's ways, as testimony to this work of God.

If you hold a magic irreversible event takes place on which eternal life hangs, then it's point or measure is important.

But the absurdity is that. It is God's work, He defines it, we can but observe the effects. And the experience varies for many.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

"If you are clear in your theology and in your doctrine you will know that no natural man can believe the gospel... So if you expect a natural man to believe the gospel simply because you are putting it to him, you are denying the gospel; you have not understood it yourself."

D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones

One thing

NO ONE HERE PROPOSES THE BOLDED ABOVE

Just wanted to make sure you are clear on this point.

 

[SovereignGrace]

True. He died for the sins of all those who believed in Him as the Messiah to come, and those who believed in the Messiah who died and rose from the dead.

Election is conditional on a person having faith in Christ's finished work on Calvary.


The Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but because He did not create programmable robots, but people with the ability to choose to believe or not believe the gospel, He knows that some will believe and be saved, and others will be lost.

Nowhere does it say election is based upon anything we do. Nowhere. Even when God told Israel why He chose them in Deuteronomy 7:7-8, it was not based on anything within them. Same with us. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

Now, let us examine 2 Peter 3:9 which you alluded to, but offered no exegesis.


The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

This whole letter was addressed to believers. From the very first verse to the very last one. Context here is that the ‘toward you’ is who He is not willing any should perish. And these ‘toward you’ are believers. Look at another passage that uses the same language.

”What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

The Christ is telling them how unwilling He is that any of His sheep perish. He is so not willing they perish, He died for them[John 10:11, John 10:15, Ephesians 5:25]. He is so not willing they perish, He seeks them, and when He finds them, He will even carry[Luke 15:5] them back and place them into the sheep pen[John 10:16]. He is not willing one of His elect die lost is the context of 2 Peter 3:9. But He is very willing the non-elect die lost.

Let’s look at 2 Peter 2 for a second...

In 2 Peter 2, Peter was talking about how God did not spare the angels who rebelled, saved Noah(and also seven in his family) and destroyed the rest of humanity, saved Lot and destroyed everyone else in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Then he wrote this...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.[2 Peter 2:9-10] He is able to save His elect and keep the rest right where they’re at.

He not only knows how to rescue the elect, but also how to keep the non-elect right where they’re at. So He is very willing the non-elect die lost.

 

[Renniks]

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

Just because I say something to the church body doesn't mean it isn't meant for all. It's just saying to the church that God wants to save every one. No limits.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Just because I say something to the church body doesn't mean it isn't meant for all. It's just saying to the church that God wants to save every one. No limits.

If “US/you” refers to believers.

Then why have they not yet repented?

Jesus also was long suffering towards isreal was he not?

But what was his remark?

Matthew 23:37
[ Jesus Laments over Jerusalem ] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were notwilling!

The long suffering of God is amazing. And powerful

Its sad some take this truth and make it meaningless

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Nowhere does it say election is based upon anything we do. Nowhere. Even when God told Israel why He chose them in Deuteronomy 7:7-8, it was not based on anything within them. Same with us. There was nothing in the elect that was missing in the non-elect.

Now, let us examine 2 Peter 3:9 which you alluded to, but offered no exegesis.


The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.[2 Peter 3:9]

This whole letter was addressed to believers. From the very first verse to the very last one. Context here is that the ‘toward you’ is who He is not willing any should perish. And these ‘toward you’ are believers. Look at another passage that uses the same language.

”What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14]

The Christ is telling them how unwilling He is that any of His sheep perish. He is so not willing they perish, He died for them[John 10:11, John 10:15, Ephesians 5:25]. He is so not willing they perish, He seeks them, and when He finds them, He will even carry[Luke 15:5] them back and place them into the sheep pen[John 10:16]. He is not willing one of His elect die lost is the context of 2 Peter 3:9. But He is very willing the non-elect die lost.

Let’s look at 2 Peter 2 for a second...

In 2 Peter 2, Peter was talking about how God did not spare the angels who rebelled, saved Noah(and also seven in his family) and destroyed the rest of humanity, saved Lot and destroyed everyone else in Sodom, Gomorrah and the surrounding cities. Then he wrote this...then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.[2 Peter 2:9-10] He is able to save His elect and keep the rest right where they’re at.

He not only knows how to rescue the elect, but also how to keep the non-elect right where they’re at. So He is very willing the non-elect die lost.

They don't believe context because their tradition won't allow it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They don't believe context because their tradition won't allow it.

Na,

We just look at reality.

Having faith in someone is not doing something.

You are so afraid of even taking the possibility of saving yourself you can faith a work of righteousness, which people have don to save themselves

This is found NO WHERE in scripture.

 

[reformed1689]

Election is conditional on a person having faith in Christ's finished work on Calvary.

But then you have a problem. He would have had to pay for all sins in case one of those decided to believe and meet the condition. But we are told we were elected before the foundation of the world.

The Scripture says that God is not willing that any should perish, but because He did not create programmable robots, but people with the ability to choose to believe or not believe the gospel, He knows that some will believe and be saved, and others will be lost.

It does say that, but that is out of the context. He is not willing that any of the elect perish.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Na,

We just look at reality.

Having faith in someone is not doing something.

You are so afraid of even taking the possibility of saving yourself you can faith a work of righteousness, which people have don to save themselves

This is found NO WHERE in scripture.

Lol!!!!! Talk about incoherent gibberish.

That's right though, you look at reality, that is exactly how you try to interpret your out of context passages, via pure subjectivity of your own reality, in other words by what you think is fair.

Bro, frankly? You preach a false gospel and teach you earned being chosen by your actions. That isn't the Gospel at all nor is it grace.

Face facts: You're scared to death that God chooses, and hardens others not having mercy on them, so you write your own narrative on what God needs to do to be fair, otherwise you will not worship him. Somewhere along the line you did exactly what John 6:66 says. And now your the Romans 9:19-20 man.

 

[reformed1689]

Allowed? Where's it say only some are allowed? It says whosoever will.

I see you like to cherry-pick out of context. I suggest you read John chapter 6.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

One thing

NO ONE HERE PROPOSES THE BOLDED ABOVE

Just wanted to make sure you are clear on this point.

Oh yes they certainly do.

 

[reformed1689]

Who is that referring to? Well, if I were to accept the Biblical definition of the word "gentile", then it means he is not willing that anyone among non-Jewish nations should perish, but that all should hear the gospel, be convicted of their sin through the spirit, come to repentance, and become "the elect". According to you, his desire "that all should come to repentance" only means those who are already "the elect", which makes zero sense, because you are starting with the conclusion of the process and not the beginning.

Even here you take this out of context. Gentiles are not what are being discussed in 2 Peter 3. It is the beloved general. The elect. The elect are drawn, the elect believe, the elect are saved. Not because of anything they do or who they are but because they were chosen before the foundation of the world.

Uh huh, and according to scripture, it doesn't start with the holy spirit magically "drawing all to God", it starts with them coming to the knowledge of the gospel, which ain't happening unless they heard it to begin with. Otherwise, the angel God sends into the world to preach the message in the last days is wasting his time.

I never claimed that all are drawn. In fact, I reject that notion. I also agree they have to hear the Gospel. But the Bible also says they have to have ears to hear and no, that is not talking about physical ears. Where do they get the ears to hear?

 

[reformed1689]

That's right though, you look at reality, that is exactly how you try to interpret your out of context passages, via pure subjectivity of your own reality, in other words by what you think is fair.

This is the whole problem. They are going by what they think is fair. Unfortunately, they don't get to decide what is or is not fair. They are just the clay.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Lol!!!!! Talk about incoherent gibberish.

That's right though, you look at reality, that is exactly how you try to interpret your out of context passages, via pure subjectivity of your own reality, in other words by what you think is fair.

Bro, frankly? You preach a false gospel and teach you earned being chosen by your actions. That isn't the Gospel at all nor is it grace.

Face facts: You're scared to death that God chooses, and hardens others not having mercy on them, so you write your own narrative on what God needs to do to be fair, otherwise you will not worship him. Somewhere along the line you did exactly what John 6:66 says. And now your the Romans 9:19-20 man.

1. I consider most calvinists my brother. But not you. You do not eve know how to act like a christian. Let alone resemble one.
2. Your a liar. I do not teach earning ones salvation. No one in their right mine would ever believe someone who was saved based solely on the fact they trust the ne sent to save them, and just allowed that person to save them. Thats like saying you did all the work to rescue yourself out of the ocean when you did nothing but laid there and trusted the sailor who was sent to save you.. The sailor gets all the credit not you. Let the sailor boast; He deserves it, he did all the work. Just like Jesus did all the work. So let jesus take long the credit. (I know you say you do. But i am starting to doubt it, By your actions..
3. I have faced the fact. I am not afraid of God chasing or hardening anyone. God said he is a god of unfailing love and unfailing mercy. You do not teach this, nor do you practice it. God is so graceful he let paul live most his life in a false religious system allowing him to murder Gods own children, only to knock him off hs horse and get him to chose to repent.

I know I know. People like you hate this, your so afraid of rusting in others. But hey, thats ok..

Learn what giving the love of God looks like. Until then, Your just a what did Paul call it? A clanging symbol

 

[reformed1689]

1. I consider most calvinists my brother. But not you. You do not eve know how to act like a christian. Let alone resemble one.

This statement is actually against forum rules.

2. Your a liar. I do not teach earning ones salvation. No one in their right mine would ever believe someone who was saved based solely on the fact they trust the ne sent to save them, and just allowed that person to save them. Thats like saying you did all the work to rescue yourself out of the ocean when you did nothing but laid there and trusted the sailor who was sent to save you.. The sailor gets all the credit not you. Let the sailor boast; He deserves it, he did all the work. Just like Jesus did all the work. So let jesus take long the credit. (I know you say you do. But i am starting to doubt it, By your actions..

I know you do not think you teach/preach a works based salvation but you actually do. You give a poor analogy so let me help you.

Yes, you are waiting for rescue but you are unconscious. They choose to come get you. You have to be revived.

3. I have faced the fact. I am not afraid of God chasing or hardening anyone. God said he is a god of unfailing love and unfailing mercy. You do not teach this, nor do you practice it. God is so graceful he let paul live most his life in a false religious system allowing him to murder Gods own children, only to knock him off hs horse and get him to chose to repent.

God is those things, but with qualifications.