The False Doctrine of a 7-year Tribulation

[Base12]

The Woman Symbolizes the Church

Why is the Church pregnant?

Shouldn't she be a Virgin?

 

[Taken]

Not yet, but they will be according to Romans 11.

In Jesus' day and since Jews were being taught Jesus IS their Christ Messiah.

The KEY is Once having the Knowledge, the individual is responsible For the knowledge, (thus the Justice FOLLOWING, can not be said, they never heard)
Once hearing the Individual has the FREEWILL to believe or not.)

Hearing alone does not save a soul...
The individually freely believing, leads to the saving of ones soul.

From Jesus' day to this: Jews fall into three categories:
* Remaining under the Jewish Law...keeping obedience...and they "shall be" saved.
* Keeping neither the Law or Conversion IN Christ, they "shall not" be saved.
* Converting IN CHRIST, they "Are" Saved,
(And become members of Christ's Church)

Those are DONE "effects" for any Jew who had lived, chosen and physically died.

During the Great Tribulation...
Two witnesses are Sent to Jerusalem, a Holy place unto the Jews, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ...effecting Many Jews to become Believers IN Jesus their Messiah thus Those, Jews "ARE (then) MADE" Saved.

(Currently The State of Israel contains the largest population of Jews in the entire world, and every year more Jews from foreign lands migrate To Israel to live).

Further, After the witness Preaching in Israel for 3 1/2 years (a world Power leader), will Effect the Killing of the TWO witnesses "and" the Jews ... Many Believing Jews become KILLED (5th Seal, their saved souls under the altar, waiting for other Jews who will be soul saved, and killed.)

The world Leader will be, through his armies, searching for ANYONE (Jew or Gentile), who WILL NOT, submit to the world leader, as "he" being "their god"., for those people to be KILLED.

The "Jews", believing IN God, but not IN Jesus is Christ are told to flee the cities (from the armies), and go to the mountains.

In the mountains, God sends 144,000 men, (12,000) from Every Tribe to Preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, proclaiming Him the Tribes Christ Messiah.

"Many" of the Jews and other Tribesmen, Become Believers in Christ Jesus.

(The armies, begin reaching the mountains...Killing the The men, who reject the world leader "as their god".
Their "saved souls"...along with the "souls" under the altar, then are taken up to Heaven.

God shortens the "Days/Times" of the "armies" finding and "Killing", all of the men who have rejected "the world leader as their god"....and the 144,000 "Preachers".

The souls of the 144,000 remain preserved.
Their "task"/"service" accomplished.

The Saved souls under the altar, and the Saved souls from the mountains, all go to Heaven.

Whether or not the believing Jews have become only believers or Converted IN Christ, (thus a member of Christ's Church, scripture doesn't say...Scripture reveals the believing, Tribes, become Saved...yet there is no mention of their bodies being yet risen UP.)

I do not believe they become part of Christ's Church...Because I believe Christ's Church has Already Been Redeemed;
Body, Soul and Spirit, Pryor to the beginning of the G-Tribulation.

I believe Many, (but few by population statistics), WILL become Soul Saved...and their Bodies Killed...And not Risen UP, (glorified) until AFTER the 1,000 year reign, and Renewing of the WHOLE Earth.

Note: the shortening of days in the mountains...ends the Killing of ANY Jews who came into Belief...They remain alive, (mortal), Believing, and alive, they ARE the Remnant that is the First generation to begin Repopulating the Earth during The 1,000 year reign, establishing cities and ruling governments of their cities and Jesus sitting as King of kings and Lord of lords in His earthly Kingdom in Jerusalem, being the KING, and LORD, over all the smaller governments (of mortal men).
And WITH Jesus in His Kingdom is His Church....( which I believe ARE men who WERE once mortal, But were Converted and Raised Immortal, and Redeemed, Before the G-Tribulation Began...at the time of "Catching up to the Clouds", referred to as the: "Rapture"...which only applies TO:
people, soul Saved, born Again "at the time" of Jesus' descent From Heaven to the Clouds, and He calling UP TO Him HIS Church...who UPON being "Raised", ARE Bodily Raised in a glorified Immortal Body.

Men believing, dying, and Soul Saved..."after" Jesus redeems His Church...were never called Converted or Christ's Church.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Hobie]

In Jesus' day and since Jews were being taught Jesus IS their Christ Messiah.

The KEY is Once having the Knowledge, the individual is responsible For the knowledge, (thus the Justice FOLLOWING, can not be said, they never heard)
Once hearing the Individual has the FREEWILL to believe or not.)

Hearing alone does not save a soul...
The individually freely believing, leads to the saving of ones soul.

From Jesus' day to this: Jews fall into three categories:
* Remaining under the Jewish Law...keeping obedience...and they "shall be" saved.
* Keeping neither the Law or Conversion IN Christ, they "shall not" be saved.
* Converting IN CHRIST, they "Are" Saved,
(And become members of Christ's Church)

Those are DONE "effects" for any Jew who had lived, chosen and physically died.

During the Great Tribulation...
Two witnesses are Sent to Jerusalem, a Holy place unto the Jews, to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ...effecting Many Jews to become Believers IN Jesus their Messiah thus Those, Jews "ARE (then) MADE" Saved.

(Currently The State of Israel contains the largest population of Jews in the entire world, and every year more Jews from foreign lands migrate To Israel to live).

Further, After the witness Preaching in Israel for 3 1/2 years (a world Power leader), will Effect the Killing of the TWO witnesses "and" the Jews ... Many Believing Jews become KILLED (5th Seal, their saved souls under the altar, waiting for other Jews who will be soul saved, and killed.)

The world Leader will be, through his armies, searching for ANYONE (Jew or Gentile), who WILL NOT, submit to the world leader, as "he" being "their god"., for those people to be KILLED.

The "Jews", believing IN God, but not IN Jesus is Christ are told to flee the cities (from the armies), and go to the mountains.

In the mountains, God sends 144,000 men, (12,000) from Every Tribe to Preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, proclaiming Him the Tribes Christ Messiah.

"Many" of the Jews and other Tribesmen, Become Believers in Christ Jesus.

(The armies, begin reaching the mountains...Killing the The men, who reject the world leader "as their god".
Their "saved souls"...along with the "souls" under the altar, then are taken up to Heaven.

God shortens the "Days/Times" of the "armies" finding and "Killing", all of the men who have rejected "the world leader as their god"....and the 144,000 "Preachers".

The souls of the 144,000 remain preserved.
Their "task"/"service" accomplished.

The Saved souls under the altar, and the Saved souls from the mountains, all go to Heaven.

Whether or not the believing Jews have become only believers or Converted IN Christ, (thus a member of Christ's Church, scripture doesn't say...Scripture reveals the believing, Tribes, become Saved...yet there is no mention of their bodies being yet risen UP.)

I do not believe they become part of Christ's Church...Because I believe Christ's Church has Already Been Redeemed;
Body, Soul and Spirit, Pryor to the beginning of the G-Tribulation.

I believe Many, (but few by population statistics), WILL become Soul Saved...and their Bodies Killed...And not Risen UP, (glorified) until AFTER the 1,000 year reign, and Renewing of the WHOLE Earth.

Note: the shortening of days in the mountains...ends the Killing of ANY Jews who came into Belief...They remain alive, (mortal), Believing, and alive, they ARE the Remnant that is the First generation to begin Repopulating the Earth during The 1,000 year reign, establishing cities and ruling governments of their cities and Jesus sitting as King of kings and Lord of lords in His earthly Kingdom in Jerusalem, being the KING, and LORD, over all the smaller governments (of mortal men).
And WITH Jesus in His Kingdom is His Church....( which I believe ARE men who WERE once mortal, But were Converted and Raised Immortal, and Redeemed, Before the G-Tribulation Began...at the time of "Catching up to the Clouds", referred to as the: "Rapture"...which only applies TO:
people, soul Saved, born Again "at the time" of Jesus' descent From Heaven to the Clouds, and He calling UP TO Him HIS Church...who UPON being "Raised", ARE Bodily Raised in a glorified Immortal Body.

Men believing, dying, and Soul Saved..."after" Jesus redeems His Church...were never called Converted or Christ's Church.

Glory to God,
Taken

The same person who brings the false doctrine of the 7-years of tribulation, we see the origin of this false idea of a 'secret rapture'...
"The origin of the rapture theory
Credit for its origin generally goes to John Nelson Darby, a 19th-century theologian.

Let’s define some common terms to help one navigate the technicalities, for in reading about the rapture, you will often encounter the words postmillennialism, amillennialism and premillennialism. First, the root word, Millennium, comes from the Latin for 1,000 years. Religiously, it refers to the first 1,000 years of Christ’s reign over the Kingdom of God on earth (Revelation 20:4).

A postmillennialist believes that Christ returns to establish the Kingdom on earth after the 1,000 years; an amillennialist doesn’t believe that the Kingdom is coming at all; a premillennialist believes that Christ returns before the Millennium to set up His Kingdom as described in Revelation 20:4.

In the century before Darby, Daniel Whitby pushed the philosophy of postmillennialism in England. “This interpretation maintains that present gospel agencies will root out evils until Christ will have a spiritual reign over the earth, which will continue for 1,000 years. Then the second advent of Christ will initiate judgment and bring to an end the present order” (Unger’s Bible Dictionary, 1988, “Millennium”).

Postmillennialism gives life to the idea of “the social gospel” and the belief that the Church can actually bring about the Kingdom by its actions. It has led to many Christian churches involving themselves in politics on the premise that they are virtually obligated to lobby governments in the direction of godliness.

There were also amillennialists in Darby’s day. He labored to correct both false teachings. Darby believed, rightly, that Jesus Christ would return to earth to establish and rule over the Kingdom of God. Darby was a premillennialist.

But in his zeal for countering error, he added another—the rapture theory. He believed he understood a new truth, an idea that had not been taught in the history of Christendom. While he was most likely sincere, sincerity alone does not make one right.

“Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20, New International Version).

How do we know whether God inspired John Darby with new understanding? It actually would not be difficult to verify. Jesus said, “…the Scripture cannot be broken” (John 10:35), meaning Scripture agrees within itself.

If the rapture were truly a biblical doctrine, it would mesh with all other scriptural references to Christ’s coming. But it does not stand up to that test, as we will see.

Scofield picks it up
“Darby’s pre-tribulational view of the rapture was then picked up by a man named C.I. Scofield, who taught the view in the footnotes of his Scofield Reference Bible, which was widely distributed in England and America. Many Protestants who read the Scofield Reference Bible uncritically accepted what its footnotes said and adopted the [rapture doctrine], even though no Christian had heard of it in the previous 1800 years of Church history” (“Catholic Answers,” http://www.catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp)....The Rapture: A Popular but False Doctrine

 

[marks]

The verses you say don't exist are in Revelation. This also proves that Christians are not raptured in some secret rapture seven years before the second coming. (@marks and @Paul Christensen)

Not sure what you mean to say here.

 

[Taken]

The very fact that you believe the Antichrist is future is sufficient evidence you have trampled upon the testimony of the reformers who all agreed that the papal system was the Antichrist. Although it must be said that some considered the pope himself, or the office, and thus the succession of Popes to be Antichrist.

The Revealing of the WHO the Antichrist is: Is currently..."guesswork, suspect, speculation"

The WHO the Antichrist IS most likely IN the world NOW...working, arranging, making deals, Gathering large numbers of support, to pounce like a lion on opportunity...
"To BECOME the World Leader OF and OVER all the Individual world governments."

Currently there ARE THREE established "types of world Governments"

1) The "United Nations" and is nations members.
2) The "European Union" and its nations members.
3) The "Arab League" and its nations members

The EU, has priviledge to attend and Observe "UN" gatherings AS Observers, and more recently as priviledges in discussions...but without Voting Rights.

The UN, EU and Arab League conduct their own business AND each VOTE by election, Their OWN Leaders OF their own respective "Counsels" , a new "LEADER" every few years.

Regarding the Vatican City, which IS its own Nation State...
It is neither a member of the UN or the EU.
It does have Observer Rights to the UN gatherings, and No voting rights.

The citizens of the Vatican City population is reletatively Small compared to other countries...numbering approx 600. And the majority of them, DO NOT live in the Vatican City/ country.
The Vatican City (country), does have approx 1.5 Billion of the world population, iN agreement and Support of their Country.

Point being:
There ARE types of World governments IN place NOW...
The UN with the most MEMBER states.
* approx at least 150
The EU
* approx 27 member states
(and may be on the verge of some dropping out)
The Arab League
* with approx 20 Member states.
The Vatican City
* relies more on Religious adherence and support, than country citizenship.

The Three Major Councils repeatedly VOTE in a new LEADER, every few years.

The Vatican (citizens population), votes a new "leader" (pope), when a current pope dies or resigns.

So WHO, the World Leader "WILL be" is speculation...as the person the possible position changes often.

It is the UN with the most MEMBERS, as viable consideration.

It is the Arab League with the most member nations with a counter part; Religous Leader within their councils. And approx 2 billion, Religous Supporters world wide.

It is the Vatican with an approx 600 member of citizens, with approx 1.5 billion Religous Supporters of citizens of foreign nations.

It is a World Leader who WILL BE sitting in a position of being Over the nations of the World...(for a short while)...called The Antichrist ...(who will lose his dominance TO Christ the Lord Jesus)

While The Antichrist HAS "governmental" Power...His Religous Counter-part called " The False Prophet" will be promoting and preaching "The AntiChrist" iN World government Leadership position...
IS "god"....

We know not of any ONE person revealed at "THE" World Leader...OR...of ONE Religous Prophet Preaching "some" UN-positioned Person being "God".

The world is in the process of being "conditioned" ( and Prepped) to ACCEPT, an Express ONE World Government Leader...but it hasn't come to pass....YET.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CharismaticLady]

No, its one 1260 period, and if you need to find it, just look up the "Dark Ages" also known as the Middle Ages and you will find it.

I'm looking at the Word of God, what are you studying?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Not sure what you mean to say here.

Just wanted you not to miss the post so I alerted you. Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture?

 

[marks]

Just wanted you not to miss the post so I alerted you. Do you believe in a pre-trib rapture?

Yes I do.

Much love!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes I do.

Much love!

That is why I especially wanted you and Paul to study my post, just in case you both believed in pre-trib. It shows that we, the Church are still here during the Great Trib. Curious - who do you believe are their other offspring?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[XRose]

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The woman is Eve and the remnant of her seed are the ones GOD told Satan would crush his head in Genesis 3:15 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.'
The Jews of Jerusalem are not the woman's seed as they are doomed to destruction as written at Zephaniah 1.
Stephen at Acts 7 revealed the Jews of Jerusalem are actually devilworshipping FalseJews just like the Canaanites. That is why today's Jews do not say or write GOD as that would mean YAHWEH the father of the Jesus they hate. Instead they write g-d as they do not want to reveal they worship Baal-Moloch as Stephen revealed.

 

[CharismaticLady]

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The woman is Eve and the remnant of her seed are the ones GOD told Satan would crush his head in Genesis 3:15 'And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.'
The Jews of Jerusalem are not the woman's seed as they are doomed to destruction as written at Zephaniah 1.
Stephen at Acts 7 revealed the Jews of Jerusalem are actually devilworshipping FalseJews just like the Canaanites. That is why today's Jews do not say or write GOD as that would mean YAHWEH the father of the Jesus they hate. Instead they write g-d as they do not want to reveal they worship Baal-Moloch as Stephen revealed.

But not forever. They will still have the last 7 years to come to their Messiah.

 

[XRose]

The Jews of Jerusalem are not the woman's seed as they are doomed to destruction as written at Zephaniah 1.
Obviously a few may choose to accept Jesus was and is the Messiah but most will refuse as they are as brainwashed as Catholics and Muslims and other pagans.

 

[Keraz]

Just for the record, it should be pointed out that Ezekiel's Temple will never be built.

This deserves its own thread so I'll be brief...

The vision Ezekiel was given was a *conditional promise*. In other words, if the Israelites repented and followed God once again, the Temple would be built. Since they didn't repent, the deal was terminated.

The Key verse can be found here...

Ezekiel 43:11
"And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them"

That's a big 'if'.

Since they weren't ashamed, the Temple Plans were scrapped.

It should also be noted that anyone who believes Ezekiel's Temple will still be built is going against Scripture and are promoting the agenda to create another Manmade Temple in Israel.

Just because ancient Israel didn't repent, that doesn't preclude a repentance today.
It is we Christians who have accepted the Gospel and been born again in Jesus, who have repented and we will build the new Temple to worship our Lord in. Zechariah 6:14-15, Haggai 2:9
God will reside in it: Ezekiel 43:1-4
Paul confirms it; 2 Thessalonians 2:4
John sees it: Revelation 11:1-3
Jesus will reign from it: Zechariah 1:16

 

[Stranger]

This false belief is a direct contradiction of the Bible truth of there being only ONE people of God. John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6, +

The body of born again Christians, Jew and Gentile, form every race and language, is the church of God
The Jewish State of Israel is a nation made up many races, who falsely claim the name of Israel. They face punishment on the forthcoming Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Ezekiel 20:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Romans 9:27

(John 17:20-23) doesn't say there is only one body of believers. (Eph. 4:4) speaks to the body of the Church.

So? The Church of Christ is made up of Jew and Gentile. So what? I haven't said anything different. But Israel is a separate body of believers. It is not made up of many races. It is Jewish. Any who come to that faith are proselytes. They become proselytes to the Jewish faith.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

The national Jews were the first to come into the Church. Is Christ now a bigamist? Does He have two or three wives?

Yes, the Church was Jewish in it's origin. No, Christ is not a bigamist. His bride is the Church, the product of his pain and suffering.

He, Christ, has one Bride to be, the Church.

Stranger

 

[marks]

That is why I especially wanted you and Paul to study my post, just in case you both believed in pre-trib. It shows that we, the Church are still here during the Great Trib. Curious - who do you believe are their other offspring?

Revelation 12:
17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Pre-trib debate?

:)

God's kid's stung by the 5-month locust-scorpion stings?

Who is the woman? Isn't this the woman who birthed the Christ? And the rest of the Isrealites will be greavously persecuted by the dragon.

Read the Revelation in the sequence shown by the timing words in the text, and you will see no other explanation for an innumerable multitude appearing in heaven at the same time the 144,000 of Israel are being sealed.

The innumerable multitude isn't the martyrs of the persecution that in the narrative of the prophecy hasn't begun yet. And those, the tribulation martyrs, are see in proper sequence in ch. 15.

Much love!

 

[Enoch111]

If the rapture were truly a biblical doctrine, it would mesh with all other scriptural references to Christ’s coming. But it does not stand up to that test, as we will see.

The doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture is a truly biblical doctrine distinct from the Second Coming of Christ, and there is no need to bring Darby, Scofield, etc. into the discussion to DISTRACT people.

While the word "rapture" is not used in the English language bibles, "rapiemur" is the Latin translation for "caught up together" in the Vulgate, and that is where rapture comes from. Rapture means caught up or snatched up in the Greek word harpazo (from which harpagesometha is derived).

The first person to reveal the doctrine of the Rapture was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. And that was even before He was crucified.

JOHN 14:1-3
NO TALK OF TRIBULATION
Let not your heart be troubled...

JESUS IS GOD, THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY FOR THE RAPTURE
...ye believe in God, believe also in me...

HEAVEN (WITH THE NEW JERUSALEM) HAS MANY MANSIONS
...In my Father's house are many mansions...

JESUS WHO IS GOD CANNOT LIE
...if it were not so, I would have told you...

JESUS IS IN HEAVEN PREPARING A PLACE FOR HIS SAINTS
...I go to prepare a place for you...

HERE IS THE DOCTRINE OF THE RAPTURE IN BLACK AND WHITE (or blue and red)
...And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself... ["The Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout"]

THE SAINTS WILL GO TO HEAVEN AT THE RAPTURE
...that where I am, there ye may be also...

This is totally different from the Second Coming of Christ which is summed up in Revelation 1:7

Behold, He [Christ] cometh with clouds [of saints and angels]; and every eye shall see Him [visible to the whole unbelieving world], and they also which pierced Him [including unbelieving Jews]: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him [thus]*. Even so, Amen.

*And [all men] said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Rev 6:16,17)

 

[Dcopymope]

Why is the Church pregnant?

Shouldn't she be a Virgin?

Yes, she should be a virgin, if the woman really symbolized the "church". But the woman is not a virgin and John doesn't say its a "church", he says it symbolizes a city, that rules over all other nations.

(Revelation 17:18) "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

How someone can confuse "that great city" with the church is beyond me, just astounds me the mental gymnastics people go through to reach such conclusions. We are supposed to believe that the "church", Gods bride, will rule with the Antichrist in the last days, the same guy responsible for beheading the saints for the testimony of Jesus to start with. Make that make sense...

 

[CharismaticLady]

Yes, the Church was Jewish in it's origin. No, Christ is not a bigamist. His bride is the Church, the product of his pain and suffering.

He, Christ, has one Bride to be, the Church.

Stranger

So what are those Jews who come into ???????? (if not the Church) during the Great Tribulation?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Pre-trib debate?

:)

God's kid's stung by the 5-month locust-scorpion stings?

Who is the woman? Isn't this the woman who birthed the Christ? And the rest of the Isrealites will be greavously persecuted by the dragon.

Read the Revelation in the sequence shown by the timing words in the text, and you will see no other explanation for an innumerable multitude appearing in heaven at the same time the 144,000 of Israel are being sealed.

The innumerable multitude isn't the martyrs of the persecution that in the narrative of the prophecy hasn't begun yet. And those, the tribulation martyrs, are see in proper sequence in ch. 15.

Much love!

Who, by name, do you believe is the woman?