Saved Or Predestined ???

[Enoch111]

...while clearly predestination points to being saved...

If predestination pointed to being saved, then all would be predestined and all would be saved. And that is because (1) Christ died for all and (2) God desires the salvation of all. And since all are not saved, it means that predestination has another purpose.

Reformed Theology began with the presumption that God has decreed the salvation of some and the damnation of others. Thus the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination or double predestination. But that was completely false, and Scripture refutes that completely.

Once we understand that God desires the ULTIMATE perfection of the saints, we can clearly see why he predestines those whom He justifies to also be glorified.

Which means that (1) salvation is entirely of the Lord and (2) God does nothing in half-measures. He wants all His children to be exact replicas of Christ, as Christ is an exact replica of the Father. But that will not happen until (1) "the flesh" (the sin nature) is eradicated and (2) the human body is rendered incorruptible, immortal, and glorious. And that is the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture. A total transformation of the saints into the likeness of Christ.

 

[Josho]

If predestination pointed to being saved, then all would be predestined and all would be saved. And that is because (1) Christ died for all and (2) God desires the salvation of all. And since all are not saved, it means that predestination has another purpose.

Reformed Theology began with the presumption that God has decreed the salvation of some and the damnation of others. Thus the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination or double predestination. But that was completely false, and Scripture refutes that completely.

Once we understand that God desires the ULTIMATE perfection of the saints, we can clearly see why he predestines those whom He justifies to also be glorified.

Which means that (1) salvation is entirely of the Lord and (2) God does nothing in half-measures. He wants all His children to be exact replicas of Christ, as Christ is an exact replica of the Father. But that will not happen until (1) "the flesh" (the sin nature) is eradicated and (2) the human body is rendered incorruptible, immortal, and glorious. And that is the purpose of the Resurrection/Rapture. A total transformation of the saints into the likeness of Christ.

And the "reply of the day award" goes to you, well said.

 

[Tong2020]

I think it is right there. Just read it as written

Let me show you why I suggested a re-reading.

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

"He also" does not at all mean that predestination there was based on God's foreknowledge. Rather what the verse is saying is that, God did not only foreknow the Christian, but also predestined him to be conformed to the image of His Son. Very different sense and meaning from what you say and I quote, "We are predestined based on Gods foreknowledge."

Tong
R0054

 

[kcnalp]

God made everybody exactly as it pleased Him.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

 

[Tong2020]

God already Knows an individual's Destiny.....People do not, UNTIL they Choose to Hear, Learn, "Choose."


Glory to God,
Taken

Of course God knows and we don't. I don't know your point why you even brought this up. Anyway, nothing really to discuss about then. The reason why I have a strong dislike for incomplete responses. That is also why I see to it that I answer a post as completely as I can, point by point as much as possible and as needed for clarity.

Tong
R0055

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

The Spirit that was hovering over the waters in the Beginning, is the Holy Spirit that is the Spirit of Jesus, the same as the Spirit of God, and because Jesus is Lord, Lord our God, Jesus is God, and because the Bible also mentions the Spirit is Lord, it's the Spirit of God, they are all connected somehow, isn't it wonderful.

Genesis 1:2 and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
And he is God with us, Emmanuel ! this is so important to understand, he came for us ! and that's why he is 'our' Lord and Saviour.
It's Awesome ! and the only time I use the word Awesome is about God and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's right, God did not fail, and He never fails. So, why did you say "But from the beginning He wanted to set up a plan where everyone could be saved, including the Gentiles.". Is that not implying that God had somehow failed concerning the salvation of Israel since you also said before saying that, that "But not all Jews were saved."? Now, are you suggesting perhaps in saying that, that God changed His plan which was in the beginning a plan where everyone could be saved?

He set up the medicine, but did not make anyone take it. What good is love if it is forced? Is it true love? No.

Yes, God gave both angels and man the freedom to choose. So, what is your point in saying that?

Choice is free will and against Calvinist doctrine. Irresistible grace is what Calvinists believe opposes free will. Are you a Calvinist? I thought you were until this question.

You said "There is also another group that were predestined from His foreknowledge. The twelve disciples." Could you please explain what you mean by "predestined from His foreknowledge"?

You said "Even Judas, though from foreknowledge, Judas' character was very flawed.". I don't follow you here. Please clarify.

Judas was not made to be evil. He chose to be from the beginning, and never changed though he walked with Jesus for three years. God in His foreknowledge knew that and chose Judas to fulfill prophecy.

None of the other apostles ever turned against Jesus after being filled with the Spirit. (Peter did before, but never after). It could be that they received more empowerment from the Spirit than us believers now who are Spirit filled and possess gifts of the Spirit and remain on the path to salvation through holiness.

You said "So predestination doesn't mean salvation." I would not base what predestination the Bible speaks of on those. I base what predestination is only as scriptures says what it is and what it involves.

Calvinists believe the elect are the predestined and are saved. But not all the elect were saved, so that would also mean that not all predestined are saved either - like the Pharisees and Judas.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I am sorry, but I am not interested with the Calvinists OSAS verse or what. Let's not talk about what Calvinists believe or not believe, nor of what verse they use or what. Let's talk about what God says in scriptures.

That would be fine if you are not in a Calvinist denomination. What denomination are you in, if any?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Both! But, the vision predominantly.

I've had visions. Don't you believe they exist? If you've never had one, it may be hard for you to swallow about others who have them. I understand.

 

[Tong2020]

Who are you to say this and make this judgement?

And see at post #85, I hope you aren't one of those that believe nobody has made it to Heaven yet.

And eternal life means eternal life, when the body dies the soul keeps living, when someone goes through a coma their soul keeps living.

I truly believe God gave her the vision, and probably even took her soul to see the 2 places, so that she may tell the rest of the world.

I am not judging her at all Josho. Am I not allowed to have an opinion different from yours? If you say my opinion is a judgement of her, why would your opinion not be a judgment? In case my opinion is the same as yours, perhaps you will not say I'm judging her.

Anyway, believe as you do. I will respect that. However I could not believe as you do, for the reasons I said in my post #103

Tong
R0056

 

[mjrhealth]

I thought that it was?

We think a lot of things, doesnt mean it is so.

 

[Tong2020]

No, it's just plain logic. Does he have another choice? Can he be saved? If not, he's predestined for death through no fault of his own.

It could be, as in fact it is to you, that that is a simple matter of plain logic.

Apparently you seem to deny that man goes to hell because of his sin and welcomes the idea that if God had not offered him salvation, that God is at fault why he goes to hell, or even asserting that such is a case of God predestinating him to hell. Is that where plain logic leads to?

Tong
R0057

 

[Tong2020]

You were doing ok until the last couple sentences. Previous to all that, I already quoted the way to become a sheep. It's not unconditional. They are the one who enter through him and they are the listening and following ones.

You don't become a sheep Renniks. Read John 10 and you will find not a single verse that speaks of becoming a sheep.

Tong
R0058

 

[CharismaticLady]

You don't become a sheep Renniks. Read John 10 and you will find not a single verse that speaks of becoming a sheep.

Tong
R0058

How do you believe someone is a sheep?

 

[Josho]

I am not judging her at all Josho. Am I not allowed to have an opinion different from yours? If you say my opinion is a judgement of her, why would your opinion not be a judgment? In case my opinion is the same as yours, perhaps you will not say I'm judging her.

Anyway, believe as you do. I will respect that. However I could not believe as you do, for the reasons I said in my post #103

Tong
R0056

Yep we are all free to our beliefs, views and opinions, sorry if I took that first line too far, I understand that it's your belief.

But see post #173.

 

[Tong2020]

Saved Or Predestined ???

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Tong
R0059

 

[DNB]

I've had visions. Don't you believe they exist? If you've never had one, it may be hard for you to swallow about others who have them. I understand.

I don't think that revelations that are worthy of Scripture, are being bestowed upon people.

 

[DNB]

We think a lot of things, doesnt mean it is so.

That goes both ways, doesn't it?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I don't think that revelations that are worthy of Scripture, are being bestowed upon people.

Not all visions are for everyone, as is Scripture. The prophet Agabus gave Paul a "personal" prophecy about him going to Jerusalem. It didn't mean that everyone who goes to Jerusalem will wind up in jail. It was an example of one of the uses of the gift of prophecy - personal.

Peter used prophecy as his first sermon on the Day of Pentecost. Prophecy was being fulfilled, and that revelation was given to Peter about Joel 2.

This is two ways the gift of prophecy is being used today.

 

[DNB]

Not all visions are for everyone, as is Scripture. The prophet Agabus gave Paul a "personal" prophecy about him going to Jerusalem. It didn't mean that everyone who goes to Jerusalem will wind up in jail. It was an example of one of the uses of the gift of prophecy - personal.

Personal prophecy, yes. This lady did not have a personal prophecy that pertained to her alone i.e. what she should or shouldn't do. She had a revelation worthy of Scripture.
CL, you're making me repeat myself too much.