Saved Or Predestined ???

[Renniks]

Not so. You just happen to have a different eye.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.'

Jesus, the good shepherd speaks of the "sheep". Who are they that Jesus is referring to as the "sheep"?

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

Again Jesus, the good shepherd speaks about the "sheep". But here he says of them as "My" sheep. Concerning the "sheep", He knows them and He is known by them and He owns them. Jesus said that it is for the sheep that He lay down His life for. He also speak of "other" sheep which he distinguished as not "of this fold". Not going to much detail, simply put, "the sheep of this fold" refers to the Jewish sheep and the "other sheep" refers to the Gentile sheep. The point in focus here is what Jesus said of the two folds of sheep (the Jewish and the Gentile), that He, take note, He will all bring them to be one flock. Now to bring them back denotes that these sheep are presently lost when Jesus said that. Not only that. That these lost sheep WILL HEAR HIS VOICE. This is very significant. This sets the lost sheep mentioned by Jesus here as separate from those who are not His. As also, this is in harmony with the truth that Jesus' sheep, while lost, when the voice of the good shepherd reach their ears, they surely will hear and as Jesus said (v.25) "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me". All this gives us a clear picture of the salvation of God. There are other figures, such as that of the freeing of a slave. Another is that of being born again or new birth. They all give us a clear picture of the salvation of God. And in all of them figures, salvation is solely God's works and all of God's grace and all depends on God and all according to God's will, purpose, pleasure, and for His glory.

Tong
R0052

You were doing ok until the last couple sentences. Previous to all that, I already quoted the way to become a sheep. It's not unconditional. They are the one who enter through him and they are the listening and following ones.

 

[kcnalp]

What is a person?

You don't know what a person is???

Jude 1:23
23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire,

 

[DNB]

It's been a while since I read the book, I would have to read her testimony again.

I do however believe that their are believers already in Heaven.

When we read about the thieves on the cross, we see that point proven. I will bring up the verses here.

Luke 23:39-43

"Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

The comma comes after today. For even Christ was not in heaven that day. He was in the grave for 3 days, then walked on earth for 40 more days.

 

[Renniks]

Where does it say that?

Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom He foreknew, He also PREDESTINED to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He PREDESTINED, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

These verbs are all aorist active indicative tenses. They indicate that the action of the verb has already taken place with respect to the subject of the verb.
Now, who did Paul just mention?
"because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Who were the saints? The ot saints.

 

[kcnalp]

These verbs are all aorist active indicative tenses. They indicate that the action of the verb has already taken place with respect to the subject of the verb.
Now, who did Paul just mention?
"because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Who were the saints? The ot saints.

"The saints", not "ot saints". "He makes intercession for the saints". Certainly not for those who are dead!

 

[Josho]

The comma comes after today. For even Christ was not in heaven that day. He was in the grave for 3 days, then walked on earth for 40 more days.

What about Elijah and Enoch? The chariot and whirlwind? Did they not get taken up to heaven?

 

[DNB]

What?
That she had a vision?
That there were babies in heaven?

Both! But, the vision predominantly.

 

[DNB]

What about Elijah and Enoch? The chariot and whirlwind? Did they not get taken up to heaven?

No, as no one was allowed in heaven until, at least, Christ made the atonement.

 

[Josho]

The comma comes after today. For even Christ was not in heaven that day. He was in the grave for 3 days, then walked on earth for 40 more days.

Do you know what happened with Jesus between his death and resurrection?

 

[Josho]

No, as no one was allowed in heaven until, at least, Christ made the atonement.

On whose condition?

 

[Josho]

@DNB if Elijah and Enoch didn't go up to heaven yet, where did they go?

And sorry I should have put that better, do you know what happened to the Spirit of God between Jesus's death and resurrection?

 

[DNB]

On whose condition?

God's, obviously? How is anyone's redemption assessed?

 

[Josho]

God's, obviously? How is anyone's redemption assessed?

So if you were to have an out of body experience and visit Heaven and saw saints there, would you believe it?

 

[DNB]

Do you know what happened with Jesus between his death and resurrection?

I'm familiar with the passages that refer to his preaching to the dead, or going into the deepest parts of the earth (hell). But, I'm really unsure of the meaning of these verses, and thus, absolutely refuse to be dogmatic about it, or have anyone else be assertive about it.

 

[Renniks]

"The saints", not "ot saints". "He makes intercession for the saints". Certainly not for those who are dead!

Yet you take the other verses as present tense when they clearly arent?

Who would these Roman Christians think of when the apostle Paul spoke of “the saints?
Not themselves, but the saints that they had learned about.

 

[DNB]

So if you were to have an out of body experience and visit Heaven and saw saints there, would you believe it?

Too hypothetical. To have an out-of-body experience is rare, and then to ask me about something that I don't believe, it's too hypothetical.
But, to answer your question in general, yes, seeing is believing, provided that the experience and vision were not hallucination.

 

[DNB]

@DNB if Elijah and Enoch didn't go up to heaven yet, where did they go?

And sorry I should have put that better, do you know what happened to the Spirit of God between Jesus's death and resurrection?

I don't believe that Jesus was God, if you were referring to the two natures of Christ? Is that what you meant by 'Spirit of God'?

 

[Josho]

@DNB it would definitely be interesting to find out where the Spirit of God was between Jesus's death and resurrection, I guess that is just another mystery of God.

 

[Josho]

I don't believe that Jesus was God, if you were referring to the two natures of Christ? Is that what you meant by 'Spirit of God'?

Oh sorry I believe in the trinity.

 

[DNB]

@DNB it would definitely be interesting to find out where the Spirit of God was between Jesus's death and resurrection, I guess that is just another mystery of God.

What is the Spirit of God, Christ's 2nd nature , according to trinitarian theology?