God doesn't sin. We need a sacrifice for our sins, not God. Jesus is the lamb of God who sacrificed himself for us, because he is God.
Saved Or Predestined ???
- Thread starter Pianoworldstage
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Are you trying to teach individual election? If so, quit beating around the bush and spit it out.
We have already discussed that the spirit convicts all. All have the opportunity to become his. The very fact that Paul admonished them to be in the spirit means we all have the choice to accept or reject the Spirit. You want to put people in categories they can't escape from. God doesn't do that. it's man's warped philosophy. Jesus didn't come to save only certain individuals who are somehow more worthy.
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other."
Of course God doesn't sin.
You said "We need a sacrifice for our sins, not God." And indeed we do. And there is no sacrifice that we can offer to God that pleases God, isn't it? So what then? Now what does scriptures say concerning God and Jesus Christ? God is the one who saves and Jesus Christ is the Savior.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
Tong
R0417
I am trying to show you what scriptures teach. And in this part of our conversation, it's the truth about man, the natural man, left to himself, that he is not able to discern the things of the Spirit of God.
Yes, we had. So? It seems up until now you don't see the difference between conviction and conversion.
And who are being admonished by Paul to be in the Spirit?
You said "Jesus didn't come to save only certain individuals who are somehow more worthy. " Another Renniks' strawman?
Tong
R0418
No, this is the conclusion of your theology, that God chooses some and rejects others. Why don't you want to admit the obvious? Is it too harsh when you bring into the light of day, instead of trying to hide behind vague statements like " sovereign choice."?
Um.., yes I never disagreed with any of this.
The sacrifice God provides is himself.
No sir. I had been clear all throughout our exchange, that God have chosen a people to be His people. Them He re-creates in Christ Jesus. So, yes, that's another Renniks' strawman.
Tong
R0419
That's called individual election, but you keep shying away from this term. Why?
Is that what to you is individual election? Well, I'd say it's election. Whether you call it individual, it does not really change what I said.
Tong
R0421
How could you say you are not sure what I mean by that, when it is you who said and I quote "Um.., yes I never disagreed with any of this."
Tong
R0422
Because you said:
"At least you say you don't disagree with any of what I said there."
I can't tell if that's sincere or sarcastic.
RainAndIceCream
Active Member
What is often taught as the reformed Calvinist doctrine is indeed hard to swallow for those who believe something far more benevolent as relates to God and his plan of Salvation.
However,Calvinism is sustained by scripture. As is Arminianism and other doctrines, save for the prosperity gospel.
One God, for there is no other Savior beside him. Emmanuel, "God with us", who in his grace brought the truth of the new testament to the world. That teaching and over centuries after Emmanuel departed this world to return to his heavenly realm, being re-defined by numerous men to mean what they say God intended us to believe.
I would suggest one might consider the crux of the contest in this debate is Denominationalism itself. What better way to fracture the Ekklesia, the church, than to inspire the ego of men whose name would live forever for attaching itself to their interpretation of the Gospel? And what greater conformation each man was correct in their vision than to have it generate followers of them? Perhaps then the hellish doctrine began as that; Denominationalism.
RainAndIceCream
Active Member
I am not a sir.
I believe I poorly worded my prior post to lead you to misunderstanding of what I said about our having the knowledge of good and evil as God does. Please forgive that. I should have written that more clearly and said instead, it was after Adam and Eve consumed the forbidden fruit that they gained that knowledge, and as such God did say they had become like Elohim, having that knowledge.
I respect your perspective as to your faith, humans, and our creation, as you defend in your remarks. I believe we will have to agree to hold to our respective views as to the matter of humans today remaining in the state of Imago Dei, Image of God.
I believe when we were created thusly in the beginning, in the image and likeness of God, the consumption of forbidden fruit further led us to be like God, having the knowledge of good and evil. Genesis 3.
That we could not have then lost our likeness and image of God in our moral, intellectual nature, or spiritual consciousness, to then mirror Creators divinity by actualizing the divine qualities God has endowed us with. Making then a difference in the world, as we are unlike any other creatures within his creation. We are able to express the innate logos, especially when indwelt by his sacred and Holy Spirit helper, to express self-transcendence, (we are in this world but not of it), centerednesss and self-actualization. Therein, able as temples carrying within the divine, as bodily members of the Ekklesia, the true church, living as one blessed to serve his will.
The two can not both be correct. God isn't the author of confusion. Calvinism ultimately sprung from a cult that Augustine was once part of, along with Aristotle's philosophy. It's origin isn't scripture, but human philosophy plus gnosticism.
RainAndIceCream
Active Member
That is true indeed, brother. God is not the author of confusion. However, as we know man is able to confuse using God's words.
Calvinism's foundation is the teaching that alleges it is founded in the five solas, and is known by the acronym, TULIP. This TULIP construct defines humans place in God's plan and God's plan for our placement in his kingdom.
For those for whom Calvinism and TULIP may be unknown or a new topic to encounter here:
Tulip= Total Depravity, humans are dead in their sins unable to comprehend the divine. Unconditional Election, God chooses us for his grace, because our totally depraved nature is unable to know God to make that choice ourselves. We do nothing to attain his grace and attention, he chooses us according to his own criteria. Limited Atonement, this point goes by the teaching that Emmanuel Christ did not die to save all people in the world. His sacrifice was to seal the Elect predestined for the gift of God's grace of Salvation through that sacrifice on the cross. Irresistible Grace, meaning that for those who are predestined as God's Elect, they are unable to resist the call to his word, grace, and of course, Salvation. Perseverance of the Saints, also equated with the teaching often conflated with Calvinism while not necessarily so because, Once Saved Always Saved, does not always adhere to the four other TULIP points. Perseverance of the Saints, means when the individual was predestined before the world came to exist to be one of God's elect, they are always that and can never fall from that state. They were his before the womb, and they remain his until they face him in Heaven.
As I had stated prior, these Calvinism points are sustained by scripture. Total Depravity, from Genesis 2, Romans 5, as two examples.
Unconditional Election, Genesis 8, Jeremiah 17. These scriptures are just two examples of scriptural support for each point. There are more but for brevity I leave it to two.
Limited Atonement, 1 John 5 and Titus 3.
Irresistible Grace, John 6, Romans 8.
Perseverance of the Saints, John 15, Philippians 2,
This does not mean that God agrees with the principles of Calvinism, nor that Emmanuel the Christ was born to deliver what has been encapsulated by man into the Calvinist doctrine.
Rather, it is to show that Calvinism argues its point through scriptures that can be used, perhaps out of context, or misapplied as some would argue, in order to defend the viability of Calvinism as, of God.
To precede what would be a natural query after having posted the above, no, I am not a Calvinist.
@RainAndIceCream Good to remember that both God's sovereignty and human responsibility are indeed found in Scripture. (John 6 is a case in point.)
Good also to remember New Testament simplicity of gathering (Acts 2.41-42 comes to mind.)
Sorry about that ma'm.I am not a sir.
I should have written that more clearly and said instead, it was after Adam and Eve consumed the forbidden fruit that they gained that knowledge, and as such God did say they had become like Elohim, having that knowledge.
Yes, but my point is that, God did not create man in His image having the knowledge of good and evil. As such, when scriptures says that we are created in God's image, having the knowledge of good and evil is not part of that.
I likewise respect your perspective as to your faith, humans, and our creation. But let me just say here my comment to your belief. As I said, when scriptures says that we are created in God's image, having the knowledge of good and evil is not part of that. While to know good and evil is in the likeness God, the fact is, God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And having eaten of it, Adam became a sinner, so that, he no longer was in the image of God, who is holy and pure.
Tong
R0423
RainAndIceCream
Active Member
I would respectfully suggest you are omitting scripture that does not comport with your ideas.
We also have knowledge of good and evil, those are characteristics pertaining to having a conscience, or conscious knowledge of good and evil, which allows us to choose our behaviors.
To be more clear, I did not say the first people were made with knowledge of good and evil. Those qualities were bestowed upon them, as God said, after they consumed the forbidden fruit.
Yes, God is holy and pure. He is also all that he said of himself in Isaiah 45:7-9.
Similar threads
