Guide To The Post Tribulation

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Anthony D'Arienzo

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Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection..[/QUOTE]​

This EXACTTLY presents where the ONLY "DEAD" who can arise and join Jesus when HE Returns -- are THE MARTYRED for refusing the mark of the beast. EVERYONE ELSE has to wait until the thousand years are ended to be raised, and then those who are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) to the New Jerusalem to be with the LORD forever in the air.


Oh, wait, -- I've already said what Scripture says.
Bobby Jo
In revelation 20...we find the term 1000years.

Where does it say they reign with Him on earth?
Why do you think it is a literal number?
 

Bobby Jo

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Where does it say they reign with Him on earth?
MacArthur RETURNED, and Jesus will RETURN. -- Both RETURN back to where they came from.

Why do you think it is a literal number?
Because I don't have a FALSE AGENDA.


Would you prefer Scripture said something different?
Bobby Jo


To All,
Some have either misinformation or disinformation, where the former is from ignorance and the latter is from deception. And if someone disputes Jesus returning to earth where HE will rule and reign for a thousand years and then satan will tempt mankind for a FINAL BATTLE, -- do you with this will occur anywhere else except EARTH?!?

So is @Anthony D'Arienzo misinformed or attempting to DISINFORM. -- It would seem to be the latter, and who is the GREAT DISINFORMER except the "one" first evidenced in the Garden of Eden.

Bobby Jo
 
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Taken

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Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and "they" sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:


and "I " saw "the souls" of "them" that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


And?
Who are "they"?
who is "I" who saw souls?
Who are "them" that were beheaded?
Who are "they" that Reigned 1,000 yrs with Christ?

Be specific...

5 The "rest of the dead" did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

Who are the Dead
and
Who are the Rest of the dead?

This EXACTLTY presents where the ONLY "DEAD" who can arise and join Jesus when HE Returns -- ARE THE MARTYRED for refusing the mark of the beast. EVERYONE ELSE has to wait until the thousand years are ended to be raised, and then those who are alive and remain shall be caught up (raptured) to the New Jerusalem to be with the LORD forever in the air.


Oh, wait, -- I've already said what Scripture says.
Bobby Jo

I, they, them, those, the dead, the rest of the dead
You have identified no one specific...
 

Timtofly

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And?
Who are "they"?
who is "I" who saw souls?
Who are "them" that were beheaded?
Who are "they" that Reigned 1,000 yrs with Christ?

Be specific...



Who are the Dead
and
Who are the Rest of the dead?



I, they, them, those, the dead, the rest of the dead
You have identified no one specific...
The verse did. Those who did not take the 666. They were beheaded. The only option to remain in the Lamb's book of life. May never happen. Should never happen. The Second Coming week should remain as 8 continuous days. Only Satan gets to mess things up. Only the church can mess Satan up. Wake up church and do your job of spreading the gospel and reaping the harvest of lost souls.
 

Naomi25

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There is absolutely no connection between the Tribulation and the Rapture. I wonder if it is some kind of martyr complex driving Christians to this nonsensical teaching. Just remember that you will simply be beheaded.

Forgive me, but when it comes to nonsensical teachings, I do believe Dispensationalism takes the cake. In any number of ways, but most readily in the blatant disregard of the commonsense reading of scripture. For example:

These two passages are widely acknowledged as a "Rapture" passages.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18


Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:51–52

Except, when we look at the details given IN these passages, and the details given in the verses directly surrounding them, we are left with no other logical conclusion than that the 'day' and 'coming' spoken of above, is not, in fact, separate from his 'last' coming. Consider:


1 Thess 4 says: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

We see this same event taking place in Matt 24, which Dispensationalists say is the 'final' second coming.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -
Matthew 24:29–31


Christ descends visibly...loudly...trumpet sounding. Then the elect will be gathered to him.
Again, it speaks of this in 1 Cor 15:50: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed"

A trumpet sounds, the dead are raised first, and then the elect who are alive.
But...does 1 Cor 15 give us a more specific time frame? It does.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

We are told that AT his coming, THEN comes the end, when he hands over the Kingdom, after he has destroyed every rule, authority and power. And the sign of his victory? The last enemy is death. Which IS defeated BY the Rapture...in other words...the very fact of the dead rising and our meeting the Lord in the air and "being changed in the twinkling of an eye" is what defeats death. It is that that allows us to cry, "where, o death, is your victory?" It has none, Christ has defeated it.

The simple fact is this: if the Tribulation goes on for 7 horrific years after the Rapture, 1 Cor 15:50-55 is not true. We do not cry out, "Where, o death, is your victory?" No...we watch it stampede the earth for another 7 years. Indeed, we watch, apparently, as Jewish and Gentile people become believers in Christ and are then killed. Which makes a mockery of the idea of what Paul is claiming about the Rapture in the first place.


The next simple and logical side-step the Dispensationalists do is this notion of the AntiChrist. The Rapture must come before he does, they say....when scripture says exactly the opposite.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
-2 Thessalonians 2:1–3


"That day WILL NOT COME UNLESS the rebellion COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed".
I mean...how clear is that?
And Paul is not speaking of second 'final' coming here. He is speaking to current believers...of himself. "Of OUR being gathered to him". He is speaking of Christ's return and Christians being gathered to him. Not any "tribulation saint" being gathered on some foreseen last return.
To suggest anything else of this passage is blatant eisegesis.

So it seems there is plenty of 'nonsense' to go around.
 

Stan B

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Those passages were fulfilled by 70ad
Your flawed hypothesis fails base on the very first verse of the Book of Revelation which was written in 95 AD:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John"
 

Enoch111

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Christ descends visibly...loudly...trumpet sounding. Then the elect will be gathered to him.
With all your contempt for Dispensationalism, you omitted some very pertinent facts which overthrow your ideas completely.

FACT#1
At the Second Coming of Christ, He descends FROM HEAVEN WITH ALL HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS (Jude 1:14,15; Rev 1:7; 19:11-16). Therefore those saints (the Bride of Christ) were already present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19). And in order to be present, they had to be in the Resurrection/Rapture long before the Second Coming (and also before the Tribulation, which is strictly for unbelieving Jews -- "the time of Jacob's trouble).

FACT #2
At the Resurrection/Rapture CHRIST COMES PERSONALLY FOR HIS BRIDE -- "The Lord HIMSELF will descend from Heaven...". However, when you turn to Matthew 24 and see the gathering of "the elect" (the believing Jewish remnant from the four corners of the earth"), Christ sends His angels to gather them to Israel. BIG DIFFERENCE.

So you can either ignore Revelation 19, or totally walk away from your unsupportable ideas.
 
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Taken

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Forgive me, but when it comes to nonsensical teachings, I do believe Dispensationalism takes the cake. In any number of ways, but most readily in the blatant disregard of the commonsense reading of scripture. For example:

These two passages are widely acknowledged as a "Rapture" passages.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18


Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:51–52

Except, when we look at the details given IN these passages, and the details given in the verses directly surrounding them, we are left with no other logical conclusion than that the 'day' and 'coming' spoken of above, is not, in fact, separate from his 'last' coming. Consider:


1 Thess 4 says: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

We see this same event taking place in Matt 24, which Dispensationalists say is the 'final' second coming.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -
Matthew 24:29–31


Christ descends visibly...loudly...trumpet sounding. Then the elect will be gathered to him.
Again, it speaks of this in 1 Cor 15:50: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed"

A trumpet sounds, the dead are raised first, and then the elect who are alive.
But...does 1 Cor 15 give us a more specific time frame? It does.

But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

We are told that AT his coming, THEN comes the end, when he hands over the Kingdom, after he has destroyed every rule, authority and power. And the sign of his victory? The last enemy is death. Which IS defeated BY the Rapture...in other words...the very fact of the dead rising and our meeting the Lord in the air and "being changed in the twinkling of an eye" is what defeats death. It is that that allows us to cry, "where, o death, is your victory?" It has none, Christ has defeated it.

The simple fact is this: if the Tribulation goes on for 7 horrific years after the Rapture, 1 Cor 15:50-55 is not true. We do not cry out, "Where, o death, is your victory?" No...we watch it stampede the earth for another 7 years. Indeed, we watch, apparently, as Jewish and Gentile people become believers in Christ and are then killed. Which makes a mockery of the idea of what Paul is claiming about the Rapture in the first place.


The next simple and logical side-step the Dispensationalists do is this notion of the AntiChrist. The Rapture must come before he does, they say....when scripture says exactly the opposite.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
-2 Thessalonians 2:1–3


"That day WILL NOT COME UNLESS the rebellion COMES FIRST, and the man of lawlessness is revealed".
I mean...how clear is that?
And Paul is not speaking of second 'final' coming here. He is speaking to current believers...of himself. "Of OUR being gathered to him". He is speaking of Christ's return and Christians being gathered to him. Not any "tribulation saint" being gathered on some foreseen last return.
To suggest anything else of this passage is blatant eisegesis.

So it seems there is plenty of 'nonsense' to go around.
 

Davy

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ALL the DEAD have to wait until the end of the Millennial Kingdom to be raised, -- EXCEPT those who were martyred for refusing the mark of the beast.

That simply is not true. And it's easy to know why per Revelation 20:6 and Revelation 20:14. Those still subject to the "second death" are condemned to perish in the future "lake of fire". What you're saying places the rest of Christ's Church being subject to the "second death", which is a false idea.

What Jesus said in John 5:28-29 and what is shown in Daniel 12:1-2 reveals both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" occur on the same day of Christ's return. Furthermore, we know for sure per 1 Thessalonians 4 that not all the Church will be martyred, and will be gathered by Jesus Christ and will reign as kings and priests with Him during the future 1,000 years of Rev.20. So the "first resurrection" INCLUDES the whole Church, because ONLY the "first resurrection" will not be subject to the "second death" per Revelation 20:6.

So I don't know where some of you guys got that false martyrs only reign with Jesus from, because it's a mistake of using tunnel vision in the Scriptures.
 

Davy

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Are you aware 1Thes is specifically those IN Christ.

And Rev 20 reveals those who reject the anti-Christ, during the Tribulation, Become IN Christ, and occupy Christ's kingdom on Earth, for 1,000 yrs....Then Gods Israel is Resurrected.

Rev.
[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
[5] BUT the Rest of the Dead lived NOT again UNTIL.... the thousand years were finished. [/B] This is the first resurrection.

Once again, the John 5:28-29 Scripture reveals BOTH, the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" occur on the SAME day of Christ's 2nd coming.
 

Timtofly

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No...we watch it stampede the earth for another 7 years. Indeed, we watch, apparently, as Jewish and Gentile people become believers in Christ and are then killed. Which makes a mockery of the idea of what Paul is claiming about the Rapture in the first place.
If the elect only get the final treatment, what is the point of waiting for the non elect?

Nor does it matter if some are elect or not.

The Bible says there will be saved believers alive. It will not happen after Satan kills them all. Dead people are not alive.

The Day of the Lord is the issue. It is a 1000 year period and a few years prior. The whole time period has been viewed by prophets and apostles at different angles. No one chapter covers the whole time in a blanket one size fits all definition. The church alive is taken out. The sheep alive are taken out, any others (wheat) alive are taken out. All the dead are dead. Some dead come to life from the prior years to live 1000 years. The rest of the dead come to life at the end of the 1000 years. But the Bible calls it a Day of the Lord. Not 24 hours. It may be 1007 years. Each new day shortens that 1007 year time frame.
 

Davy

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Yep:

Rev. 20: 13 And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done.

... which occurs:

Rev. 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended ...

... exactly as I've described.


Bobby Jo

But you forgot to include this verse...

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

KJV

How is it those are still called "the dead" when they "stand before God"??

Those are "the dead" of Rev.20:5 that lived not again until after the 1,000 years. The idea of 'living' in that future time means being of the 1st resurrection of eternal Life in Christ Jesus. The "second death" in that time is not about flesh death. The raised dead don't die in a flesh body again. It's their soul with spirit that perishes at the "second death" being cast into the "lake of fire".

The resurrection is NOT to another flesh body. It is to a "spiritual body", what Apostle Paul showed is a body of incorruption. The wicked are going to have that type of body during Christ's 1,000 years too. But they will still be "the dead", meaning their souls will still be spiritually dead.
 

Timtofly

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So I don't know where some of you guys got that false martyrs only reign with Jesus from, because it's a mistake of using tunnel vision in the Scriptures.
Tunnel vision in the Scripture? It is called tunnel vision of human doctrine. Rightly dividing. If you do not divide the Scriptures, you just tunnel through and your doctrine is wrong. The resurrection happens on the Day of the Lord. It is a 1000 year Day. Yes a resurrection at the beginning and one at the end of this Day. This Day is 1000 years long. First resurrection happens for those who live for 1000 years. Second resurrection at the end for all the dead from all time of people dying. It is the final one. They are cast into the lake of fire.

The church is with God in the Temple Revelation 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Sure there may be other things they do. We will find out soon.
 

Timtofly

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But you forgot to include this verse...

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

KJV

How is it those are still called "the dead" when they "stand before God"??

Those are "the dead" of Rev.20:5 that lived not again until after the 1,000 years. The idea of 'living' in that future time means being of the 1st resurrection of eternal Life in Christ Jesus. The "second death" in that time is not about flesh death. The raised dead don't die in a flesh body again. It's their soul with spirit that perishes at the "second death" being cast into the "lake of fire".

The resurrection is NOT to another flesh body. It is to a "spiritual body", what Apostle Paul showed is a body of incorruption. The wicked are going to have that type of body during Christ's 1,000 years too. But they will still be "the dead", meaning their souls will still be spiritually dead.
Revelation 20:5

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

They do stand before God at the end in verse 12. They are raised in verse 12, not in verse 5.
 

Naomi25

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With all your contempt for Dispensationalism, you omitted some very pertinent facts which overthrow your ideas completely.
Enoch, you mistake concern for contempt. I know too many excellent Christians who hold to Dispensational understanding to have contempt for them, or even it. I do have a very high level of concern for it, and the misconceptions needed to hold it, however. That's all.


FACT#1
At the Second Coming of Christ, He descends FROM HEAVEN WITH ALL HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS (Jude 1:14,15; Rev 1:7; 19:11-16). Therefore those saints (the Bride of Christ) were already present in Heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb (Rev. 19). And in order to be present, they had to be in the Resurrection/Rapture long before the Second Coming (and also before the Tribulation, which is strictly for unbelieving Jews -- "the time of Jacob's trouble).
Except...does the bible ever actually say that when Christ descends its with a Pre-Raptured Church? Let's look at the verses you claim supports this.

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” -Jude 14–15

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. -Revelation 19:13–14


Jude could just as easily be speaking of Christ coming with angels. In fact, that makes more sense than calling Christians "holy ones". Most often we see the Church labelled as "Saints", not "holy ones". Either way, its not an absolute.
Revelation 1:7 only states everyone will see him. Not sure how that has anything to do with what you're claiming.
Revelation 19:13-14...is problematic for you. It DOES describe Christ returning with an 'army of heaven' behind him. And they are "arrayed in fine linen, white and pure". This is most interesting, because when we dig into the book of Revelation further, guess what we find?

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:13–14

The ones in the white robes are COMING OUT OF the GREAT TRIBULATION. Huh. Fancy that. Not Raptured before it started.

Now, when added to Matt 24:29, that says "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of these days..." Christ returns. And 2 Thess 2 that blatantly says that Christ WILL NOT come UNTIL the apostasy and Antichrist comes FIRST...then I'd say you have a fairly big problem.


FACT #2
At the Resurrection/Rapture CHRIST COMES PERSONALLY FOR HIS BRIDE -- "The Lord HIMSELF will descend from Heaven...". However, when you turn to Matthew 24 and see the gathering of "the elect" (the believing Jewish remnant from the four corners of the earth"), Christ sends His angels to gather them to Israel. BIG DIFFERENCE.

So you can either ignore Revelation 19, or totally walk away from your unsupportable ideas.
You see...here's the thing: if you're going to start getting that nit-picky about what is "actually said" versus clear intent, you yourself are in hot water. Your "FACT 1" to start with. I'd say there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between supposing Christ comes for a bride and then with it...especially when it just doesn't say it.
However, the fact that accounts can differ slightly in scripture is not untested ground. Any scholar can tell you that the differences in the gospels only help to provide weight to the veracity of it's truth claims.
So when you read two different accounts of Christ's return, and one says Christ will return will angels to collect those who are his, and the other says he will return and USE those angels to collect those who are his, do you really think we either; doubt the veracity of the claim....or decide it MUST be talking about two separate return...even though there is no other textual weight to back that up? Especially when it doesn't bend the imagination too much to consider the Lord of the Universe using his angelic ones to gather his elect to him.

The facts are; you seem to be resting your argument entirely on an interpretation of a text (Rev 19) that actually, if you do it due diligence, contradicts your belief. And then leading with that belief, shoehorning it into other texts rather than going with the most naturally occurring, and most recognized interpretive understanding. Put simply: the bible doesn't say what you are claiming it does. And I don't really need to do anything but point that out. Sorry.
 

Naomi25

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If the elect only get the final treatment, what is the point of waiting for the non elect?

Nor does it matter if some are elect or not.

The Bible says there will be saved believers alive. It will not happen after Satan kills them all. Dead people are not alive.

The Day of the Lord is the issue. It is a 1000 year period and a few years prior. The whole time period has been viewed by prophets and apostles at different angles. No one chapter covers the whole time in a blanket one size fits all definition. The church alive is taken out. The sheep alive are taken out, any others (wheat) alive are taken out. All the dead are dead. Some dead come to life from the prior years to live 1000 years. The rest of the dead come to life at the end of the 1000 years. But the Bible calls it a Day of the Lord. Not 24 hours. It may be 1007 years. Each new day shortens that 1007 year time frame.

Yeah....sorry...I'm not sure I quite get what you're saying. I'm coming into the conversation late and haven't had the time to read all previous pages, so I haven't had the chance to watch your thoughts develop.

My point was not so much about time frames. Just that...when Christ returns to wrap up this 'age', then that will be that. The Rapture will occur then, and death will be done away with.
 

Timtofly

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Enoch, you mistake concern for contempt. I know too many excellent Christians who hold to Dispensational understanding to have contempt for them, or even it. I do have a very high level of concern for it, and the misconceptions needed to hold it, however. That's all.



Except...does the bible ever actually say that when Christ descends its with a Pre-Raptured Church? Let's look at the verses you claim supports this.

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” -Jude 14–15

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. -Revelation 19:13–14


Jude could just as easily be speaking of Christ coming with angels. In fact, that makes more sense than calling Christians "holy ones". Most often we see the Church labelled as "Saints", not "holy ones". Either way, its not an absolute.
Revelation 1:7 only states everyone will see him. Not sure how that has anything to do with what you're claiming.
Revelation 19:13-14...is problematic for you. It DOES describe Christ returning with an 'army of heaven' behind him. And they are "arrayed in fine linen, white and pure". This is most interesting, because when we dig into the book of Revelation further, guess what we find?

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:13–14

The ones in the white robes are COMING OUT OF the GREAT TRIBULATION. Huh. Fancy that. Not Raptured before it started.

Now, when added to Matt 24:29, that says "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of these days..." Christ returns. And 2 Thess 2 that blatantly says that Christ WILL NOT come UNTIL the apostasy and Antichrist comes FIRST...then I'd say you have a fairly big problem.



You see...here's the thing: if you're going to start getting that nit-picky about what is "actually said" versus clear intent, you yourself are in hot water. Your "FACT 1" to start with. I'd say there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between supposing Christ comes for a bride and then with it...especially when it just doesn't say it.
However, the fact that accounts can differ slightly in scripture is not untested ground. Any scholar can tell you that the differences in the gospels only help to provide weight to the veracity of it's truth claims.
So when you read two different accounts of Christ's return, and one says Christ will return will angels to collect those who are his, and the other says he will return and USE those angels to collect those who are his, do you really think we either; doubt the veracity of the claim....or decide it MUST be talking about two separate return...even though there is no other textual weight to back that up? Especially when it doesn't bend the imagination too much to consider the Lord of the Universe using his angelic ones to gather his elect to him.

The facts are; you seem to be resting your argument entirely on an interpretation of a text (Rev 19) that actually, if you do it due diligence, contradicts your belief. And then leading with that belief, shoehorning it into other texts rather than going with the most naturally occurring, and most recognized interpretive understanding. Put simply: the bible doesn't say what you are claiming it does. And I don't really need to do anything but point that out. Sorry.
If you celebrate your birthday once a year, which one is the great one? If you said you had a great decade, which one was it?

The point is the 3 years leading up to the Day of the Lord which last 1000 years, in God’s Word, in God's view, is totally different than our view. It is a harvest. The church is harvested. That means removed from the earth. The house of Jacob is harvested. That means the house of Jacob is removed from the earth. The Nations are harvested and Babylon is destroyed. That means the Nations are removed from the earth. Meeting the Lord here or there, or even in sheol, takes place each year, during the next 3 years. Then the week of the Second Coming. Then Satan is given a chance if souls are still here. If they all got saved in a revival in the next 5 months, no one may be there for Satan. The church is their last hope of meeting Christ.

However when the church fails, Satan gets 3.5 years. The Second Coming week already started, but all of heaven including God, the Lamb, and all in Christ leave. Only 2 witnesses stand in Jerusalem for 3.5 years. Why would any one in their right mind want to spend time with Satan the true Antichrist?
 

Naomi25

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If you celebrate your birthday once a year, which one is the great one? If you said you had a great decade, which one was it?

The point is the 3 years leading up to the Day of the Lord which last 1000 years, in God’s Word, in God's view, is totally different than our view. It is a harvest. The church is harvested. That means removed from the earth. The house of Jacob is harvested. That means the house of Jacob is removed from the earth. The Nations are harvested and Babylon is destroyed. That means the Nations are removed from the earth. Meeting the Lord here or there, or even in sheol, takes place each year, during the next 3 years. Then the week of the Second Coming. Then Satan is given a chance if souls are still here. If they all got saved in a revival in the next 5 months, no one may be there for Satan. The church is their last hope of meeting Christ.

However when the church fails, Satan gets 3.5 years. The Second Coming week already started, but all of heaven including God, the Lamb, and all in Christ leave. Only 2 witnesses stand in Jerusalem for 3.5 years. Why would any one in their right mind want to spend time with Satan the true Antichrist?
Again, I'm sorry...but...I just don't see it. I don't see what you're trying to plot out. And I most certainly don't see any scripture that seems to support it. I'm not, at this point, saying its not there or you're wrong...just that I'm not seeing it and you've not presented it. And without those two factors...no dots are connecting for me.