Guide To The Post Tribulation

[Taken]

These two passages are widely acknowledged as a "Rapture" passages.

Understanding is KEY.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18

Asleep- Faithful to God, Faithful to Christ
Bodily Dead, shall be RISEN UP in an Immortal body.

IN Christ- Committed "Converted" Faithful to God AND Faithful to Christ. Prepared...to be Claimed...Christ's BRIDE.

^ That Scripture is Christ Claiming, Calling His BRIDE UP To Him, where He is.

Descend- move from one place to a lower place.
The Lord moves From High Heaven TO the Lower Clouds.

The BRIDE hears a signal, the Trump of God.
The BRIDE responds and Rises UP to Meet the Lord.

Who else "on Earth" hears the BRIDES signal?
No one.

What Exactly Rises UP?
* physically DEAD IN Christ, bodies, up out of their graves, Raised Up in immortality, reunited with their Saved soul and Quickened spirit.
* physically ALIVE IN Christ, bodies, UP off the Face of the Earth, Raised UP in an Immortal body, with their saved soul, Quickened spirit.

WHY?
Because the Groom decides the Marriage Day.
The BRIDE simply makes herself Ready, for any day the Groom calls for her.
(Jewish Tradition/Custom of a betrothed to be joined in marriage).

And WHO exactly can BE The BRIDE of the perfectly Whole and Holy Christ?
A person WHO themselves are MADE Perfectly WHOLE and Holy.
(Whole Forgiven, Wholly Committed, Wholly Perfected, Wholly Holy...Body, soul, spirit...
AND Hears the Trump of God, and Rises UP to meet their Groom where He IS).

Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at "the last trumpet." For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. -1 Corinthians 15:51–52

This Scripture refers TO another Signal. The Very LAST Trump.

From The day Christ's BRIDE is Risen Up...MANY Things Occur ON Earth. The Book of 7 SEALS is Opened, 7 Signals/Warnings TRUMPS are Sounded, 7 BOWELS are poured out, Gods Cup of Indignation is Poured Out.
...Chaos, Fear, Wars, A new government established, false gods, rebellions, people dividing, people ACCEPTING God, People REJECTING God, People Accepting Christ Jesus, People REJECTING Christ Jesus, people being Killed for ACCEPTING God/Christ and people being killed for REJECTING God/Christ.

It's a time of great DIVISION AND SEPARATION.

Those WHO Become and Remain Bodily DEAD....(before and during the Tribulation) Believing IN God IN Christ...
at THE LAST TRUMP be RISEN UP in an IMMORTAL Body reunited with their Saved soul and Quickened spirit...
Being therefore MADE wholly Whole and Holy.
Fully Prepared to See and BE Forever with the Lord God Where he IS.

There is so much more details specific to individuals of what applies to the them When and Why.

Except, when we look at the details given IN these passages, and the details given in the verses directly surrounding them, we are left with no other logical conclusion than that the 'day' and 'coming' spoken of above, is not, in fact, separate from his 'last' coming.

Details... Trumps...signals have been used since ancient history.
A Trump, a Series of 7 Trumps, the Last Trump...are all regarding specific things.

Jesus was IN Heaven...He came Down from Heaven...He wasn't walking around, able to be Seen. For 9 months He was Hidden from man's Sight. For some approx 30 years He was not known to the whole World. For a few (approx 3 years men came TO SEE Jesus).

Jesus coming from Heaven TO the Clouds is Not for the World to See Him. It is for His Bride to See Him.

And...read the parable of the Banquet.
The son's father (King) sends Servants about the Earth to Gather GUESTS for his son's wedding feast.
It's a parallel...God will gather "Guests" from the Earth...during the Tribulation for them to be Guests at His Son's Wedding feast.

1 Thess 4 says: "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

We see this same event taking place in Matt 24, which Dispensationalists say is the 'final' second coming.

Final in What Respect?
ONCE Jesus DESCENDS FROM Heaven...He does Not turn about and Return to Heaven...neither does He Immediately, set his Feet on Earth.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -
Matthew 24:29–31

Correct. Jesus is not on Earth During ANY day of the Tribulation. He is IN the Clouds with His Bride, who is Saved spiritually AND Saved from being Appointed to suffer ANY wrath during ANY day of the Tribulation.

Christ descends visibly...loudly...trumpet sounding. Then the elect will be gathered to him.

You skipped over (the Time frame) of Christ descending to the Clouds and The Trump of God calling UP Christ's BRIDE...and The son's father gathering guests for his son's wedding feast.

The Lord is NOT on Earth when He gathers.
God is NOT on Earth when He Gathers.

Again, it speaks of this in 1 Cor 15:50: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed"

Don't confuse the Last Trump to be heard by Faithful remaining bodies with the the Trump of God to be heard by Christ's BRIDE.

time frame:
But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. -1 Corinthians 15:23–26

We are told that AT his coming,

Difference between coming and Return.
Return is Jesus ON Earth.

The simple fact is this: if the Tribulation goes on for 7 horrific years after the Rapture, 1 Cor 15:50-55 is not true.

It is True. It simply does not apply to Christ's BRIDE.

Which makes a mockery of the idea of what Paul is claiming about the Rapture in the first place.

No. It is not a mockery. It is a distinction of what Applies to whom, when and why.

The next simple and logical side-step the Dispensationalists do is this notion of the AntiChrist. The Rapture must come before he does, they say...."when scripture says exactly the opposite."

No.

Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
-2 Thessalonians 2:1–3

A man Revealed...
Take Any man...Born, living, known...has that man been Revealed? Yes.
Is that man lawless? I don't know, do you?
You don't know Until his lawlessness is Revealed.
Two things must occur First.
Rebellion Against the Law by All men ALIVE ON Earth.
Whose Law? Gods Law or man's Law?
Obviously Gods Law.
What men are living rebelling against God?
All Obedient and Saved unto God are removed from the Earth WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)...or partially (Saved soul & Quickened spirit...& their body physically DEAD, which can not therefore Violate Any Law.

So who is ON Earth Living Rebelling Against Gods Law? Before Christ RETURNS to Earth?

You show a confusion about certain words applying them to people they do not apply to.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

@Taken

We are already in the seals being opened, because the seals have everything to do with the bride and the church. Seal 5 shows all the saints from all time about to re-unite with their spirit. No flesh is allowed in heaven. It will be a new body. Seal 6 happens at the same time. The church is first to receive their glorified body, the soul and spirit rejoined. The world will not see it happen, too fast. They will not know at first, too disoriented. God on the throne will be present before all humanity and it will be one continent. With the first trumpet, Jesus Christ, the Lamb will be on the Mount. There will be a final earthly ministry with 144K Jewish male virgins, his disciples going through the whole world preaching the Gospel. This is the point where Satan is exposed. The last 2 seals shattered the deception of Satan. The rapture shattered the deception of Satan that formed the apostate church. Most religious folks are looking for an Antichrist. If they are the church, that deceptive false teaching will be instantly corrected. But the sky, this virtual reality of galaxies and solar systems will be shattered by the very presence of God on the throne in sight of the whole world. It will take some time for humans to figure out; who they are, where they are, and why did everything just change. Then the harvest starts in earnest. The Trumpets and Thunderings happen. THEN THE SECOND COMING WEEK STARTS! The celebration to start the last 1000 years on earth.

 

[Taken]

@Taken

We are already in the seals being opened, because the seals have everything to do with the bride and the church. Seal 5 shows all the saints from all time about to re-unite with their spirit.

Disagree.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[rockytopva]

What part of "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." are folks not understanding?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib it would be rather well announced, in which it is not. Jesus Christ could come today and take us away on that heavenly ark, or it could be decades down the road. Our duty is to watch and not let us overtake us as a thief today.

 

[Davy]

What part of "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." are folks not understanding?

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. - Matthew 24

If this was anything but pre-trib it would be rather well announced, in which it is not. Jesus Christ could come today and take us away on that heavenly ark, or it could be decades down the road. Our duty is to watch and not let us overtake us as a thief today.

But there's more that our Lord Jesus said there. You ended it too early.

Matt 24:42-51
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Jesus told us to 'watch'. That's why He gave that goodman of the house example that watches for the thief, not allowing his house to be broken into. That is what the 'thief in the night' idea Jesus gave is about. If you aren't staying awake watching, then you won't recognize when the thief breaks in. In Revelation 16:15, Jesus said He comes "as a thief". So He is comparing the day of His 2nd coming to a thief breaking in, taking one by surprise.

Yet Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 said that day is NOT to take us by surprise!


Matt.24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

Christ's faithful servants are to be found working when our Lord Jesus comes. That is the opposite idea of being 'taken'.

At the end of Luke 17, Jesus's disciples asked Him "Where, Lord?" would the first ones taken, be taken to. His answer was to where the fowls are that eat on a dead carcase. In other words, the 1st ones 'taken' ARE NOT TO JESUS! Our Lord Jesus wants His servants to be found still grinding at the mill, working!


Matt.24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
KJV

For those not watching, Jesus will come upon those in a day when they are not looking for Him? and in an hour they are not aware of?

That's right. Because the idea of to be 'watching' is about watching the Signs of the end He gave His Church leading up to His coming. Our Lord Jesus further detailed those 7 Signs of the end in His Revelation. In 1 Thessalonians 5, Apostle Paul called those Signs the "times and the seasons".

 

[Bobby Jo]

What part of "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." are folks not understanding?
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
...

... The part where we can't know the DAY or the HOUR, but we're not so stupid as to the WEEK; MONTH; SEASON; YEAR (1); DECADE (10); SCORE (20); CENTURY (100); DAYTONA (500); or MILLENNIA (1,000):

1 Thess. 5:2 For you yourselves know well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 When people say, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as travail comes upon a woman with child, and there will be no escape. 4 But you are not in darkness, brethren, for that day to surprise you like a thief.​

... and Scripture does not contradict Scripture, so you might want to GET YOUR UNDERSTAND CORRECT, because the audience you reference is NOT the same audience that PAUL is writing to, -- the Church.


Perhaps if you had a better grasp of Scripture, you too could know the YEAR; and then if you understood the FEASTS, you could also know the WEEK. -- OR NOT and be SURPRISED ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

Yet Apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4 said that day is NOT to take us by surprise!

Yes, we who study the Prophetic Word should know what the Lord will do on His Day of wrath; a surprise to all the ungodly peoples. And it seems; it will be a surprise to most clueless Christians.
We have had ample warning and the prophets describe in over 100 scriptures, what that Day will be and the result of it.

Do not confuse the terrible Day of fiery wrath, with the glorious Day that Jesus will Return. Much must happen between the two separate Days. From Revelation 7:1 to 19:11

 

[Bobby Jo]

Yes, we who study the Prophetic Word should know what the Lord will do on His Day of wrath; a surprise to all the ungodly peoples. And it seems; it will be a surprise to most clueless Christians.
We have had ample warning and the prophets describe in over 100 scriptures, what that Day will be and the result of it.

... but some have their pet doctrines which they cherish more than Scripture. And so we can only look for the day when GOD reveals the TRUTH of Bible Prophecy to them, and pray that it's not too late to recover for their failure to accurately anticipate, and failure to prepare.

I'm praying for you Keraz.
Bobby Jo

 

[Naomi25]

Understanding is KEY.

Asleep- Faithful to God, Faithful to Christ
Bodily Dead, shall be RISEN UP in an Immortal body.

IN Christ- Committed "Converted" Faithful to God AND Faithful to Christ. Prepared...to be Claimed...Christ's BRIDE.

^ That Scripture is Christ Claiming, Calling His BRIDE UP To Him, where He is.

Descend- move from one place to a lower place.
The Lord moves From High Heaven TO the Lower Clouds.

The BRIDE hears a signal, the Trump of God.
The BRIDE responds and Rises UP to Meet the Lord.

Who else "on Earth" hears the BRIDES signal?
No one.

What Exactly Rises UP?
* physically DEAD IN Christ, bodies, up out of their graves, Raised Up in immortality, reunited with their Saved soul and Quickened spirit.
* physically ALIVE IN Christ, bodies, UP off the Face of the Earth, Raised UP in an Immortal body, with their saved soul, Quickened spirit.

This is all very nicely plotted out, but the problem comes when laid out with other scriptures that place the resurrection of dead...ALL the dead, even the unrighteous dead...at the same time. As well as verses that place the Rapture, that 'secret signal' at an event that is witnessed by 'all the nations' who mourn, flee in terror or are forced to acknowledge that Christ is Lord.

“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1–2

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–14

We can clearly see that a final judgement is coming when a resurrection of both just and unjust is coming, where they will be judged on whether or not their book is written in the book of life. And once this has occurred, and those in Christ have received their resurrection bodies, Death is cast into the Lake of fire...the final death...it's ultimate defeat. Which is what is painted out for us in 1 Corinthians 15...which also describes clearly the Rapture of the Church.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -
Matthew 24:29–31

For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.....
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:3,8

We see in these verses that Christ's return is loud, with cries, trumpets sounding, nations mourning and seeing his coming. This mourning and coming just precedes his elect being gathered after a trumpet call, just as in 1 Thess 4. The commonalities are too much to doubt they are speaking of differing events, not without some very specific directions to the contrary.
And then, we also see in 2 thess 2 that our 'gathering to him' will NOT happen until the Antichrist appears, whom Christ will defeat by the breath of his mouth at his appearance...also something the world will notice.
All this leads to the easy conclusion that the bible is speaking of a final, visible event in which all dead are raised, each to their own destination, as well those alive in Christ being gathered to him.

WHY?
Because the Groom decides the Marriage Day.
The BRIDE simply makes herself Ready, for any day the Groom calls for her.
(Jewish Tradition/Custom of a betrothed to be joined in marriage).

And WHO exactly can BE The BRIDE of the perfectly Whole and Holy Christ?
A person WHO themselves are MADE Perfectly WHOLE and Holy.
(Whole Forgiven, Wholly Committed, Wholly Perfected, Wholly Holy...Body, soul, spirit...
AND Hears the Trump of God, and Rises UP to meet their Groom where He IS).

This Scripture refers TO another Signal. The Very LAST Trump.

From The day Christ's BRIDE is Risen Up...MANY Things Occur ON Earth. The Book of 7 SEALS is Opened, 7 Signals/Warnings TRUMPS are Sounded, 7 BOWELS are poured out, Gods Cup of Indignation is Poured Out.
...Chaos, Fear, Wars, A new government established, false gods, rebellions, people dividing, people ACCEPTING God, People REJECTING God, People Accepting Christ Jesus, People REJECTING Christ Jesus, people being Killed for ACCEPTING God/Christ and people being killed for REJECTING God/Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

The problem with saying that the BRIDE is Raptured before the 7 year Tribulation, is that you are then being contrary to scripture in terms of who belongs to Christ. You admit that people are coming to Christ during that time, but they don't get to be Christ's bride? Where does the bible ever say there will come a point where to become a believer will place you lower down on the "believer" totem pole? That they will miss the wedding supper of the Lamb? That they will not have the same relationship with Jesus; one body with him the head...the Church of Christ...the Bride.
To say these Christians cannot be the bride because the bride is taken away, is to place class restrictions on believers that Paul has already torn down. "No Jew or Gentile, no slave or free, no male of female....all one in Christ."
If you, or anyone else, can provide verses that point out that these "Tribulation Saints" are clearly expected to pay this penalty due to their tardiness of believing, then sure, we can have a conversation. But beyond that, its pure speculation based on eisegesis.

Difference between coming and Return.
Return is Jesus ON Earth.

I'm sorry, but saying that there's a difference between the meaning of "coming again" and "return" is a just a bit of a stretch. Especially when the verses used to back it up really don't specifically say either way. The best you've got is that some say he's seen 'coming in the clouds'. The problem, of course, is that they don't say he STAYS in the clouds, and anyone coming from above to earth by necessity must pass through the clouds. In fact we have verses saying that Christ, on his return, touches his feet on the Mount of Olives. But nothing stating he stays in the clouds, or even that he grabs his church for a quick return back to heaven. All of that is assumed based upon a preconceived doctrine. I mean, I invite you to show me the verses that that specifically state otherwise...

It is True. It simply does not apply to Christ's BRIDE.

So...,what? You're saying that 1 Cor 15 is true in that death is only defeated for the Church? The rest of the world is subject to it for another 7 years?
Again, the problems with that are many. To start with, it doesn't say that. It just says that death is defeated AT Christ's return, which is the same time the resurrection happens. We know from other scriptures that this is also the same time both just and unjust are raised, as well as those of us still alive are transformed. And Rev 20 tells us that once the dead have been judged, death is thrown into the Lake of fire. There is no space here left for 7 years of death to rage across the globe, swallowing those who even come to Christ, which also seems to contradict your idea...see my points above on 'saints' being Christ's Church.
Ultimately...there is nothing you can provide, scriptually, that says that death's defeat is ONLY for the Pre-raptured Church. That's an assumption on your part. To read that chapter at face value we must accept that when it says death is defeated, it means, quite simply, death.

No. It is not a mockery. It is a distinction of what Applies to whom, when and why.

Please see above about lack of scriptual evidence on this applying to 'whom, when and why.'

No.

Pithy. You've convinced me.

A man Revealed...
Take Any man...Born, living, known...has that man been Revealed? Yes.
Is that man lawless? I don't know, do you?
You don't know Until his lawlessness is Revealed.
Two things must occur First.
Rebellion Against the Law by All men ALIVE ON Earth.
Whose Law? Gods Law or man's Law?
Obviously Gods Law.
What men are living rebelling against God?
All Obedient and Saved unto God are removed from the Earth WHOLE (body, soul, spirit)...or partially (Saved soul & Quickened spirit...& their body physically DEAD, which can not therefore Violate Any Law.

So who is ON Earth Living Rebelling Against Gods Law? Before Christ RETURNS to Earth?

You show a confusion about certain words applying them to people they do not apply to.

Glory to God,
Taken

I'm sorry, but ...I show confusion? That was some...bendy logic on your part...well done! But convincing....no. Not at all.

 

[farouk]

Enoch, you mistake concern for contempt. I know too many excellent Christians who hold to Dispensational understanding to have contempt for them, or even it. I do have a very high level of concern for it, and the misconceptions needed to hold it, however. That's all.



Except...does the bible ever actually say that when Christ descends its with a Pre-Raptured Church? Let's look at the verses you claim supports this.

It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.” -Jude 14–15

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. -Revelation 1:7

He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. -Revelation 19:13–14

Jude could just as easily be speaking of Christ coming with angels. In fact, that makes more sense than calling Christians "holy ones". Most often we see the Church labelled as "Saints", not "holy ones". Either way, its not an absolute.
Revelation 1:7 only states everyone will see him. Not sure how that has anything to do with what you're claiming.
Revelation 19:13-14...is problematic for you. It DOES describe Christ returning with an 'army of heaven' behind him. And they are "arrayed in fine linen, white and pure". This is most interesting, because when we dig into the book of Revelation further, guess what we find?

Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. -Revelation 7:13–14

The ones in the white robes are COMING OUT OF the GREAT TRIBULATION. Huh. Fancy that. Not Raptured before it started.

Now, when added to Matt 24:29, that says "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of these days..." Christ returns. And 2 Thess 2 that blatantly says that Christ WILL NOT come UNTIL the apostasy and Antichrist comes FIRST...then I'd say you have a fairly big problem.



You see...here's the thing: if you're going to start getting that nit-picky about what is "actually said" versus clear intent, you yourself are in hot water. Your "FACT 1" to start with. I'd say there's a BIG DIFFERENCE between supposing Christ comes for a bride and then with it...especially when it just doesn't say it.
However, the fact that accounts can differ slightly in scripture is not untested ground. Any scholar can tell you that the differences in the gospels only help to provide weight to the veracity of it's truth claims.
So when you read two different accounts of Christ's return, and one says Christ will return will angels to collect those who are his, and the other says he will return and USE those angels to collect those who are his, do you really think we either; doubt the veracity of the claim....or decide it MUST be talking about two separate return...even though there is no other textual weight to back that up? Especially when it doesn't bend the imagination too much to consider the Lord of the Universe using his angelic ones to gather his elect to him.

The facts are; you seem to be resting your argument entirely on an interpretation of a text (Rev 19) that actually, if you do it due diligence, contradicts your belief. And then leading with that belief, shoehorning it into other texts rather than going with the most naturally occurring, and most recognized interpretive understanding. Put simply: the bible doesn't say what you are claiming it does. And I don't really need to do anything but point that out. Sorry.

Hi @Naomi25 ; I think it also relates to what events mentioned in Scripture mean respectively to the church and to Israel; if this is borne in mind, then it can give clarity.

 

[Davy]

Yes, we who study the Prophetic Word should know what the Lord will do on His Day of wrath; a surprise to all the ungodly peoples. And it seems; it will be a surprise to most clueless Christians.
We have had ample warning and the prophets describe in over 100 scriptures, what that Day will be and the result of it.

Do not confuse the terrible Day of fiery wrath, with the glorious Day that Jesus will Return. Much must happen between the two separate Days. From Revelation 7:1 to 19:11

Sorry, but God's Word declares the day of Christ's 2nd coming to be on the "day of the Lord". The Scripture evidence, for one place, is written in Zechariah 14 which shows it is the "day of the Lord" time when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1.

It really doesn't make sense why you would want to reject that simple Zechariah 14 evidence. Confusion is guaranteed when one rejects the simplicity of God's written Word.

 

[Keraz]

Sorry, but God's Word declares the day of Christ's 2nd coming to be on the "day of the Lord". The Scripture evidence, for one place, is written in Zechariah 14 which shows it is the "day of the Lord" time when Jesus' feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from per Acts 1.

It really doesn't make sense why you would want to reject that simple Zechariah 14 evidence. Confusion is guaranteed when one rejects the simplicity of God's written Word.

Quite right: The glorious Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, is the Day Jesus will Return. As prophesied in Zechariah 14:3.

But the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal world wide disaster, is at least 10 to 15 years before that.
The Day the Lord takes action, such as His punishments related in the OT and His Advent in the NT, prove there is no single Day of the Lord.

The over 100 graphically stated prophesies, like Amos 5:18-20, obviously refer to the Day of the Lords wrath. Conflating that with His Return, is just crazy.

 

[Davy]

Quite right: The glorious Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, is the Day Jesus will Return. As prophesied in Zechariah 14:3.

But the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, the Sixth Seal world wide disaster, is at least 10 to 15 years before that.

I strongly disagree. The 6th Seal wrath and every mountain and island being moved out of their place is about events to occur on the final day of this flesh world. Paul and Peter said that day will come "as a thief in the night", calling it the "day of the Lord".

Moreover, because God's consuming fire is to burn man's works off the earth on the "day of the Lord", we know that is when Jesus comes to reign, because there cannot be any more reign by Satan's host on earth when that fire happens. It will literally end wickedness on this earth and usher all peoples into Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

 

[Taken]

I am not trying to convince you of anything.
I was trying to show you why I believe what I believe.

I believe in the Rapture (catching UP) of The Bride of Christ, (which is those "IN" Christ), TO meet their Lord, at a specific Time, and the Bride going forward, iS Forever WITH the Lord, where He is.

The Messiah being foretold, was in the OT.
The OT believers anticipated the Messiah's revealing.
The NT revealed a child, born, growing into a man, teaching and preaching, and followers.
Many (primarily Jewish) followers and non-followers) were Speculating...WHO "this man" (called JESUS) IS.
Jesus Himself had a Conversation with His Disciple followers...about WHO He IS.
Jesus asked: WHO others were saying He IS...AND...WHO His Disciples thought He IS.

NO ONE Knew For Sure!

UNTIL... God in Heaven SUPERNATURALLY told Jesus' Disciples' That Jesus IS the Christ Messiah.

Matt. 16:
[13] ...Jesus ... asked his disciples... Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
[14] And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
[15] He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matt. 16
[16] And Simon Peter answered and said, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
[17] And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

That was the Moment "JESUS" was revealed JESUS IS the Christ.

That IS a Foreshadow!
The Anti-Christ shall be REVEALED, long before the World knows he IS the Anti-Christ.

That is ALSO a prophetic notice.
Hearing or Reading Jesus IS the Christ...IS NOT HOW an Individual "KNOWS" Jesus IS the Christ!

An INdividual "Knowing" Jesus IS THE CHRIST, IS, by SUPERNATURALLY, being told.
And being SUPERNATURALLY told IS a blessing from God TO that Individual.

It's a Lesson.
The Anti-Christ will be revealed (present on Earth), Long Before the World knows he IS the Anti-Christ.

The Anti-Christ will have followers, (of many people living in fear and chaos of the world) believing in "his Peace and Safety speeches",
LONG before he IS Revealed and the world KNOWS he IS The Anti-Christ.

Many people following him will "already" BE
MARKED in allegiance to him.

Many will begin to REALIZE who he IS and try to become released from his Mark, (a FAIL ).

People of this world are "conditioned" by a corrupt society, to repeatedly MAKE oaths of Allegiances;
contracts, marriages, government reps, court testimonies, religious gods...claiming to Give their True Word of Promise To fulfill their Allegience.
And all day long, People wiggle out fulfilling their YES.

Not in the Supernatural World!
A "yes" to The Anti-Christ is forever.
And A "TRUE YES" to the Lord God is Forever.

"True" Yes to God? Yes. God IS all knowing.
He Knows, if an individual IS making a TRUE confession/testimony of Belief...
Or A FAKE confession.
(And FYI, many make public FAKE confessions of Belief...to FOOL witnesses seeing and hearing the confessions.)
(And the Reasons for individuals giving a FAKE confession is as many as there ARE individuals, who think they can GAIN "something" from other people).

And TO ^^^ That ^^^ Jesus gave His Response...
Matt: 7
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God Revealed Jesus, for men of "the World" to SEE.
But it is much Later God Reveals to Individual men, Jesus IS the Christ.

At the START of the End of Days Tribulation:
The Lamb of God, shall OPEN the BOOK of 7 SEALS. Each Seal Opened Reveals "something" different IS Being Revealed IN the World.

The World will NOT recognize Who or What...
"Until" they SEE The Who and Experience the What he does.

Every SEAL opening Is a Spiritual REVEALING.
Remember...
Most of the World IS Secular/Natural (not IN the Spirit of God).
Most of the World will accept This Supernatural Revealing, as Natural, and follow him.

Jesus taught to Become "IN" Christ, and BE protected BY HIS Power, to not fall INTO false Trickery of the Anti-Christ the Lamb of God shall Send Into the World.

And the Facts Are:
Many Have, Are and many Shall during the Tribulation follow anything Against God.
And:
Many Have, Are and many Shall during the Tribulation follow God, and Christ.

Individuals decide IF they want to merely BE A "lawful" Follower Behind God, or a "carnally minded" Follower Behind Christ...
or BE "IN" Christ (His Bride) and walking "WITH" Him Forever.

Hope that gives you a further Understanding of Revealing. (Spiritually and Naturally).

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Timtofly]

This is all very nicely plotted out, but the problem comes when laid out with other scriptures that place the resurrection of dead...ALL the dead, even the unrighteous dead...at the same time. As well as verses that place the Rapture, that 'secret signal' at an event that is witnessed by 'all the nations' who mourn, flee in terror or are forced to acknowledge that Christ is Lord.

“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1–2

Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. -John 5:28–29

Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–14

We can clearly see that a final judgement is coming when a resurrection of both just and unjust is coming, where they will be judged on whether or not their book is written in the book of life. And once this has occurred, and those in Christ have received their resurrection bodies, Death is cast into the Lake of fire...the final death...it's ultimate defeat. Which is what is painted out for us in 1 Corinthians 15...which also describes clearly the Rapture of the Church.

For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:15–18

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -
Matthew 24:29–31

For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.....
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. -2 Thessalonians 2:3,8

We see in these verses that Christ's return is loud, with cries, trumpets sounding, nations mourning and seeing his coming. This mourning and coming just precedes his elect being gathered after a trumpet call, just as in 1 Thess 4. The commonalities are too much to doubt they are speaking of differing events, not without some very specific directions to the contrary.
And then, we also see in 2 thess 2 that our 'gathering to him' will NOT happen until the Antichrist appears, whom Christ will defeat by the breath of his mouth at his appearance...also something the world will notice.
All this leads to the easy conclusion that the bible is speaking of a final, visible event in which all dead are raised, each to their own destination, as well those alive in Christ being gathered to him.

We know who this so called antichrist is. It is Satan. He has deceived the church with false doctrine and theology. There is hardly any agreement on who is right and wrong these days. Satan has deceived the world with evolution and convincing people to call evil good, and good evil.

The Day of the Lord is the next 1000 years. It is the final 1000 years of existence. The next few years is going to be the harvest of all living humanity. All will die one way or the other. Some will rise to reign with Christ at the beginning of the Lord's Day. The rest will rise at the end. But all will know who God is, and who the Lamb of God is. Even the dead below the earth. All prophecies have been leading up for the last 100 years to this final Day of the Lord. The book of Revelation in chapter 6 has already started. We are living in the last days of the church age. The church will be obsolete (for earthly purposes) and in heaven (the temple of God) very soon.

 

[Keraz]

I strongly disagree. The 6th Seal wrath and every mountain and island being moved out of their place is about events to occur on the final day of this flesh world. Paul and Peter said that day will come "as a thief in the night", calling it the "day of the Lord".

Moreover, because God's consuming fire is to burn man's works off the earth on the "day of the Lord", we know that is when Jesus comes to reign, because there cannot be any more reign by Satan's host on earth when that fire happens. It will literally end wickedness on this earth and usher all peoples into Christ's future 1,000 years reign.

You make everything happening on the same Day.
This idea simply does not fit with the Revelation sequence.
Yes; there will be a Millennium when Jesus will reign as King. Psalms 110:2 Only at the end of it, will Satan be finally disposed of and fire will remove all the present works on the earth, 2 Peter 3:10, and a new heavens and a new earth will be a reality.

The Day that will come unexpectedly; is the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth seal worldwide disaster of a similar magnitude as Noah's flood. 2 Peter 3:1-7

 

[Taken]

What part of "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." are folks not understanding?

It appears, some people do not comprehend J Descending and Coming and Returning are different things and not A Rocket Flight from Heaven TO Earth.

The "Lord" DESCENDS from Heaven TO the Clouds.
Those "IN" Christ are called UP to meet their "Lord."
Those "IN" Christ are Prepared to WED "Christ". His Bride.

The WORLD says with their Secular Logic...pfft, people have said for years Jesus was about to Return. Eh, He hasnt. And go on about their Secular Life.

True we DO NOT KNOW the Hour...and since No one Knows the Hour, the Urgency is TO BE Prepared.

The Urgency, is Also...people Die everyday. We do not know that Hour either. If one dies Without Christ, or without having been one of Gods Faithful Tribe of Israel...whoops...
Their opportunity came and went.
And WHEN the Son of man returns, they missed their opportunity to Be RISEN UP TO Him.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Yes, that gives us a Clue About What the Majority of the World Will be Doing...
Carefree, keeping up with the Jones, (Things, things, things, they can't afford, partying...blah, blah, blah...nothing to Do With the Lord....and surprise...Great Havoc.)

But as IN Noah's Day Also reveals notice for those IN Christ. Christ's BRIDE particularly and Christ's Church.

It is the sav-ED;
In Noah's Day, Devastation Came upon the FACE of All the Earth.
Noah, IN the ARK, "prepared At Gods Direction," labored By Faithful Noah ...
The Ark Did What?
The Ark Rose UP OFF the Face of the Earth...
To Where?
To the Face of the WATERS.

And in the Day The Lord Calls UP the Bride of Christ, His Church...
Where DOES His Bride, His Church Go?
UP Above the FACE of The Earth.
To the Clouds...
Why?
Because Tribulation is Going to Begin...
Wrath and destruction ON the Face of the Earth.

And the Hour For the Lord to RETURN TO Earth...

Remember it was "the Son of man" who came, for men to See.
It is "Son of man" that shall Return to Earth...Mortal men Must be Able to See Him.
His Return, is a bit different.
The Son of man came without power,
The Son of God, revealed on Earth, IS Christ, left with Power.
At His Return, the Son of man, Has Power.

Be Prepared and the Hour the Son of man returns will have zero negative affect upon an individual.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 ; I think it also relates to what events mentioned in Scripture mean respectively to the church and to Israel; if this is borne in mind, then it can give clarity.

How do you deal with the fact that Paul specifically makes the Church and Israel one?

Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. -Galatians 3:7

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise. -Galatians 3:28–29

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, -Romans 11:17

Paul is clear, is he not? The 'Church' has not become 'the elect' because of a special 'parenthesis' in time or God's purpose...we have become elect because he grafted us into the tree of Israel. Thus we are brothers to believing Jews...there IS no Jew or Greek...just believers functioning in the body of Christ.

 

[Josho]

So why in the past 10 years have so many Christians shifted to the post tribulation view?

So I started of with a pre-trib rapture view, then I changed to post-trib and now I am back to pre-trib, but I do not put away the chance that post-trib could happen too.

We should be ready either way though.