Spotting the Heretic

[RogerDC]

Are you arguing that eternal life is the reward for obedience?

Eternal life can be seen as a "reward" (Heb 11:6, 2John 1:8) and we get it through love of God, manifested in faith and obedience. God saves those who love him - we demonstrate that love by our obedience, without which we are not justified and without which faith is "dead" (James 2:24-26).

Rev 14:12 - the "saints" are those who have faith in Jesus AND. keep the commandments of God.

 

[RogerDC]

Is that what you think? That becoming a Christian could turn us into monsters? Make us want to be Sin Monsters?

Er, no. I'm saying grace doesn't override our free will. A believer can choose to be a monster if he wants to be. Plenty of believers have committed terrible crimes because they gave into temptation - welcome to reality.

 

[justbyfaith]

Eternal life can be seen as a "reward" (Heb 11:6) and we get it through love of God, manifested in faith and obedience. God saves those who love him - we demonstrate that love by our obedience, without which we are not justified and without which faith is "dead" (James 2:24-26).

Rev 14:12 - the "saints" are those who have faith in Jesus AND. keep the commandments of God.

See my thread

Salvation by grace through faith...a license for sinning?

It should be clear that we are justified before man by our works of faith (Romans 4:2) but not before God, who sees the invisible (1 Samuel 16:7).

Eternal life is the reward, not for obedience, but for faith.

Of course, a living and saving faith will result in obedience.

But the distinction must be made; because there are those who believe that their obedience will save them apart from faith in Jesus.

So, we say that not even obedience that is in faith has the power to save a man.

Because obedience that is in faith, the faith has already wrought salvation in the life of that believer; and therefore the obedience doesn't save him...but it is the faith that has transformed his heart, so that he is inclined towards obedience; and he has been saved in that his heart has been transformed through a living and saving faith in Jesus Christ...which is simple faith that apprehends the blood and power of the Cross apart from seeking to obtain it by works.

Good works surely result from such a living and saving faith...but they are not a part of it.

The reward for obedience, therefore, is that you have laid gold, silver, and precious gems on the foundation of Jesus Christ.

Salvation is found in the laying of the foundation....reward is found in the building of the building.

The foundation is laid through faith alone in Jesus Christ.

The building is built by works of faith.

If someone has the foundation laid but no building built upon it...they shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

1 Corinthians 3:11-15.

 

[RogerDC]

I know I'm butting in...

But I would say that our obedience comes as the result of having been given eternal life.

That makes no sense - we are not granted eternal life until after we die and are judged by Christ - despite what your childish misinterpretations of scripture tell you.

 

[justbyfaith]

Er, no. I'm saying grace doesn't override our free will. A believer can choose to be a monster if he wants to be. Plenty of believers have committed terrible crimes because they gave into temptation - welcome to reality.

Grace turns a man from being a dog or swine into a sheep.

Dogs return to their vomit, and swine to their wallowing in the mud; sheep have an abhorrence to such things.

It is not that we are turned into robots but that we have a new disposition and a new nature, as those who are born again.

'nuff said!

 

[justbyfaith]

That makes no sense - we are not granted eternal life until after we die and are judged by Christ - despite what your childish misinterpretations of scripture tell you.

It is no misinterpretation; but John 5:24 (kjv) is clear on the matter: that we pass from death into everlasting life from the moment of first faith.

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

[marks]

A believer can choose to be a monster if he wants to be.

Really?

Does not the Lord chasten His children for their good?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Eternal life can be seen as a "reward" (Heb 11:6, 2John 1:8) and we get it through love of God, manifested in faith and obedience. God saves those who love him - we demonstrate that love by our obedience, without which we are not justified and without which faith is "dead" (James 2:24-26).

Rev 14:12 - the "saints" are those who have faith in Jesus AND. keep the commandments of God.

OK, thank you for your clarification.

As we have completely different ideas of what the Gospel is, I don't see much likelyhood of reaching agreement on this.

I'm curious about one thing, though. You've said that without love and obedience we are not justified.

Justified to whom? Justified in what way?

Much love!

 

[marks]

No believrer is rendered "innocent" by goods works. God tests our faith and our love for him by our obedience to his commandments. It has always been thus - God tested Adam and Eve with the commandment to not eat from that tree. God tested Israel by there obedience to the law of Moses.
"If you love me, you will keep my commandments" (John 14:15).

In Rev 3:4 Jesus declares certain believers "worthy" of salvation, based on their good works. That's what it means to be justified by works.
Believers will be judged on the Last Day in the same way Jesus judges believers in Rev 2, 3 - according to their faith and their works (obedience). You ought to read those chapters sometime.

So what do you mean when you say, "justify"?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Grace turns a man from being a dog or swine into a sheep.

Dogs return to their vomit, and swine to their wallowing in the mud; sheep have an abhorrence to such things.

It is not that we are turned into robots but that we have a new disposition and a new nature, as those who are born again.

'nuff said!

Amen!

 

[RogerDC]

Grace turns a man from being a dog or swine into a sheep.

Only if the believer's free will allows it. A believer's free will can override any grace he receives. God allows the devil to tempt believers, in order that their hearts and faith be tested. That is why no one is eternally saved as soon as they first believe. Our lives on earth is a test and that test doesn't end until we die. When the test of life is over, we are judged by Christ and only then do we know we have either passed or failed the test.

 

[RogerDC]

Really?

Does not the Lord chasten His children for their good?

The Lord can chasten his children all he likes, it doesn't mean the child will repent of his evil. To chasten doesn't mean to turn someone into a robot that doesn't sin.

 

[RogerDC]

OK, thank you for your clarification.

As we have completely different ideas of what the Gospel is, I don't see much likelyhood of reaching agreement on this.

Please explain.

I'm curious about one thing, though. You've said that without love and obedience we are not justified.

Justified to whom? Justified in what way?[/QUOTE] James says "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone". That is to say, justified or made worhty In the sight of God for eternal salvation. God tests our faith and our love for him by our obedience to his commandments - if we pass that test we are seen as justified - ie, "worthy" (Rev 3:4) of salvation.

 

[RogerDC]

In Revelation 3:4, they are not declared "worthy" because of good works; but rather they are declared worthy because of the fact that they are sanctified through faith (Acts of the Apostles 26:18) and the word of His grace (Acts of the Apostles 20:32).

You're hopeless. All one has to do is read the preceeding verses to Rev 3:4 to see that you are talking nonsense. Jesus is clearly referring to their "WORKS". It is their works done in faith that make them worthy of salvation.
When Jesus says "I know your works", believe it or not, he is really referring to their works. not their faith.

See also Rev 3:15-19 and 22:13.

 

[Heart2Soul]

-
There are believers who want to indoctrinate you into their harmful theology. This is their mission in life. They feel they are "led of the Spirit" to actually cause harm regarding the Faith of real born again believers.
So, how to recognize them?
How to know who is the liar, and who is the Truth.

Now i have a strong and unrelenting point of view about a certain heresy, because i have seen the damage it causes churches, Christians, and the heretics themselves. This theology is an extreme spiritual poison. Its an infection of the mind and spiritual condition. It literally can make you crazy. Especially if you are a sincere and true believer who above all things wants to please God.

The True Believers, if they are caught up in this hellish circular reasoning theology, become more and more upset and there is NO simple remedy. See, what happens if you get infected by the people who are spreading this spiritual deceit, is that the bible and the devil begin to work together to condemn you to the point where you will begin to obsess on THE idea that you are lost, and hell bound. The bible becomes a punishing enemy as all it seems to do is show you that you are going to hell. Ive seen it. Ive dealt with believers who are caught up in the devil's lie, and TAUGHT IT by other believers. Ive witnessed the mind damage and the broken spirit. These believers, who have been deeply mentally disturbed by the people who mean to do it,....other believers... And because of these poisonous "christians", they can't open a bible and get any Help. Prayer life becomes a guilt trip. They cry and shake and feel sick all the time. Their lives become so disrupted by this screaming mental idea that they have committed the unparsdonable sin, or they have willfully sinned their salvation away. And all they had to do to be destroyed was show up on a "friendly" Christian Forum and read some fool's Thread regarding "losing your salvation" This particular Thread Topic is posted constantly on every Christian Forum that will allow it. And the next thing a sincere believer thinks after reading this spiritual poision is, "what if i did this".... and then the bottom falls out of their lives as the devil begins to work their minds into worry and fear to try to literally destroy them.

FYI. : The Epistle to the Hebrews, is a spiritual bear trap. Its a book that will tie a novice baby Christian in a knot for life. This epistle is so strong, so powerful, that when a novice gets into it, having no sound theology to lean on , no soul anchor of Grace from their Christian beginnnig, no deep understanding of Redemption,.. they will end up for the rest of their life preaching one message. "you can lose your salvation". That is what happens to everyone who get lost in the Epistle to the Hebrews, because they never became grounded in GRACE and "Justification by Faith" theology Truth BEFORE they jumped into this DEEP DEEP Epistle written to the "Hebrews".

Listen Saint, the bible is not a fun filled novel. Its a Spiritual Awakening Experience, written as words in Jesus's Blood.. Understand? And the unclean spirit , Satan, uses the bible to harm you, if he can. And do you think he can't.?
Listen... He was here before Adam. He was looking over Paul's shoulder when Paul was getting his letters out to the Churches. He sent Muslims their Bible. He lifted Jesus up by His power and took him to a high place and showed the Lord of Glory a few things... Satan is alive, just as certain as Jesus is Risen. And he is not playing with you. He wants your LIFE if he can't get your soul, and if he can't get ether because you are born again, then he'll send a heretic's lies into your mind, using a pulpit, a commentary, an online FORUM, a family member, a christian commentary..... that will try to make you believe that the Blood of Jesus is only as good as you trying by "abiding" and "enduring" and "commandment keeping" to try to keep yourself saved.

Now you think about that..... The heretic will continue to try to make you believe that the Blood Atonement is actually YOU keeping yourself saved, OR NOT. That the blood of Jesus is only as good as you are....

There are 2 Gospels that are preached, since the Cross was raised.. One is From the New Testament, and one is from the Devil. The bible preaches that God MADE you righteous and keeps you righteous, HIMSELF, if you will believe in Christ. Philippians 1:6
This is known as being born again. This is God becoming Jesus the Man and taking His very righteousness and giving it to you in place of your sin, and unrighteousness. This is Redemption. The Blood Atonement. "The Gift of Righteousness". "The Gift of Salvation".

The Devil's gospel teaches that your works make you and keep righteous, "enduring" "Abiding", "Obedience" and commandment keeping keeps you saved, and your obedience, you see... is your Cross that you hang on, to save yourself.

God's Gospel, is : "i will save you and keep you saved. ". using the Blood of Jesus.

The devil's gospel, is anything and everything else. And Saint, everything else including the person who is teaching works for salvation...... is Galatians 1:8

So you spot a heretic and what do you do about it? A heretic is defined as one who does come into agreement with your beliefs or politics.
That would be alot of heretics around you.
Definition of HERETIC
Definition of heretic


1religion : a person who differs in opinion from established religious dogma (see DOGMA sense 2)especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who refuses to acknowledge or accept a revealed truth. The church regards them as heretics.
2: one who differs in opinion from an accepted belief or doctrine : NONCONFORMIST

 

[Behold]

So you spot a heretic and what do you do about it?

If you have one in your Church, you talk to them.
You take them into your office and you set them down and you have a heart to heart.
You explain their issue. You offer them the truth.
You do this, 2-3 times.
If they sit there screaming and throwing a Tantum, like you find RogerDC doing here, then you escort them to the door and help them into the Street.
"see ya".
This is Titus 3:10.
That how you deal with a heretic in person.

On a forum you are at the mercy of the TOS, and the Mods.
if the Mods are heretics, then good luck.
If they are not, then they will clean up their Forum.
It can be that a pack of Heretic Mods will keep non-heretics off "their" forum, while they protect their heretic buddies.
That happens a lot on a "christian" forum.

 

[Heart2Soul]

If you have one in your Church, you talk to them.
You take them into your office and you set them down and you have a heart to heart.
You explain their issue. You offer them the truth.
You do this, 2-3 times.
If they sit there screaming and throwing a Tantum, like you find RogerDC doing here, then you escort them to the door and help them into the Street.
"see ya".
This is Titus 3:10.
That how you deal with a heretic in person.

On a forum you are at the mercy of the TOS, and the Mods.
if the Mods are heretics, then good luck.
If they are not, then they will clean up their Forum.
It can be that a pack of Heretic Mods will keep non-heretics off "their" forum, while they protect their heretic buddies.
That happens a lot on a "christian" forum.

This forum is open to all denominations of faith...So when there are several doctrines involved there will be disagreements as to the interpretation of what the scriptures say. When I first joined a christian forum I was caught off guard....there are some pretty mean spirited people that come against you very strongly when your beliefs contradict theirs...but are we both Christians? Yes....
Example.....Cessasionists vs. Continuationists....the argument here isn't whether Jesus is the Son of God who was born of the virgin Mary and who was crucified for our sins...their difference is whether the gifts are for today as it was in the NT during the time of the apostles.
So who is the heretic? They both are by definition because they both contend the other is teaching a false gospel.
The forum moderators cannot ban members from both sides of this fence because there wouldn't be any members hardly left.
Christianity Board has a Statement of Faith, and Rules of the Forum that must be agreed upon when a member joins....so they agree then come into the discussions and begin breaking the rules and contradicting the boards statement of faith...action is taken and some receive permanent bans....but the bottom line is that we aren't here to defend one doctrine over another but rather offer a place to come together and fellowship and discuss the Bible, our beliefs, our hearts and to form long lasting bonds with other brothers and sisters in Christ.
But let's make it personal....I am not sure what your denomination or doctrines of beliefs are but if they are opposite or contradict mine should I ban you? Well that would be imposing my beliefs upon you and everyone else on the forum who believes as you do....
We are not a church or denomination......we are simply an online community where believers can visit and discuss various topics.

 

[Behold]

But let's make it personal....I am not sure what your denomination or doctrines of beliefs are but if they are opposite or contradict mine should I ban you? Well that would be imposing my beliefs upon you and everyone else on the forum who believes as you do....
We are not a church or denomination...

Lets make it personal.
There is a God. There is a Devil. The devil comes as a preacher of hybrid Righteousness. His deceived will preach his gospel.
So, should this be allowed on a Forum?
Well, that is the issue, as who is the devil? Who. is preaching the devil's lies?
And does it matter enough that people who are preaching the devil's gospel, should not be allowed to have access to a public forum, so that they can try to ruin the faith of real believers?
Thats the bottom line.....the bottom line is, a Mod should be mostly concerned not with letting everyone fight within the " TOS boundary", but they should be on guard , understanding that their main JOB is to protect the new believers.
I know of no fourm, worldwide, that is a "general" Theology invitation that cares if new believers are subverted.

"well behold who is lying and who is the real light".
"we all quote verses". "we all say we are telling the truth". "we all believe what we say"

How do you know the heretic?

1. All Heretics teach that you can lose your salvation.
2. Heretics teach that God burns some in the lake of fire and chooses others to not burn
3. Heretics pray to Mary

So, start there, and you'll discover plenty of them.
And if you discover that the MODS are both #1 and #2 and #3.... then you can only imagine how Happy the Devil is with the forum.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Lets make it personal.
There is a God. There is a Devil. The devil comes as a preacher of Righteousness. His deceived will preach his gospel.
So, should this be allowed on a Forum?
Well, that is the issue, as who is the devil? Who. is preaching the devil's lies?
And does it matter enough that people who are preaching the devil's gospel, should not be allowed to have access to a public forum, so that they can try to ruin the faith of real believers?
Thats the bottom line.....the bottom line is, a Mod should be mostly concerned not with letting everyone fight within the " TOS boundary", but they should be on guard , understanding that their main JOB is to protect the new believers.
I know of no fourm, worldwide, that is a "general" Theology invitation that cares if new believers are subverted.

"well behold who is lying and who is the real light".
"we all quote verses". "we all say we are telling the truth". "we all believe what we say"

How do you know the heretic?

1. All Heretics teach that you can lose your salvation.
2. Heretics teach that God burns some in the lake of fire and chooses others to not burn

So, start there, and you'll discover plenty of them.

Well the admins and mods are constantly on top of things...if something is posted and not reported then it may not be seen by mods....have you ever tried to read every thread on every forum to monitor the responses in them....not possible there aren't enough mods to do that...so the members must report what they consider breaking forum rules.

 

[marks]

The Lord can chasten his children all he likes, it doesn't mean the child will repent of his evil. To chasten doesn't mean to turn someone into a robot that doesn't sin.

Listen again . . . you had parents who chastened you according to what they thought best, but the Lord chastens us 'for our good'. His chastening is in fact for our good, not just, maybe it will work and maybe not.

And afterward comes the peaceable fruit of righteousness. Not robothood. It doesn't remove who we are, it trains us to not be so influenced by the flesh, actually enabling us to be more of who we are.

Much love!