John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

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Most people really don't know the real history of something so they go with what they were told.
But you do??

So you're willing to believe your own theories in your own mind and not the factual history. Do you not think that many have tried and failed to change history based on their own mindset? This has been going on for centuries. History has and continues to provide factual evidence that it should remain true.

Many try to convince others of their false claims because the Church has too many rules. It's hard to be a Catholic! It's not for the weak!!! Just look at the list of mortal sins. Look at all those rules. If the Church was easy, I think many would join. But as Jesus said, carry your cross, the road to heaven is narrow. God Bless
 

Tong2020

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Your words bro!

Tong2020 said:
You apparently seem not to believe that He is able to keep you from stumbling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory
That quote does not say what you say it means sir. It does not say I can do no wrong because God will not allow it sir. In fact, those in the quote are from the words of Jude concerning God, Him who is able to keep me and who keeps me. The Lord is my keeper. Do you know what that means?

Tong
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historyb

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But you do??

Never said that. I was Catholic and didn't because it was hard, it wasn't hard enough. I left after Francis took over and started dismantling the Church, I can't abide being under a liberal Christian. Pope Benedict was the best and it was great under him.
 

Tong2020

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The Bareans tried to disprove St. Paul, not prove him. There i no where, absolutely no where that says to go by the Bible alone. The idea to go by the Bible alone is an anti Christ invention of man. Even St. Paul said to go by the written and oral, not just the written. Those who go by Scripture alone pervert Scripture an go to perdition to burn forever.
This is what the scriptures said of the Bereans, that they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. And since Paul was telling them the truth, therefore many of them believed.

I have already explained why, like the Bereans, we should go to the Bible, to examine whether what is taught and preached by one is true or not. For only scriptures, the words of God, is ever unchanging and infallible. But if you have faith in those who taught and preached to you, that you were taught the truth, and don't want to examine scriptures if that were so, then that's on you. Going to the words of God in scriptures to do so is not a mistake, but even is noble, and never evil. And I repeat, the only way the Christian can tell, if one preaches any other gospel than what the apostles preached to the people, is to go to scriptures which was given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. The words of God in scriptures is the only unchanging and infallible truth. Now, if you go with tradition, that it is also the basis of truth, then that's on you.

Just to bring you to what scriptures said regarding tradition at this point, even the nation of ethnic Israel to whom God had at various times and in various ways spoke and given His words in time past to their fathers by the prophets, how by their traditions, had transgressed the commandment of God. For they hold the tradition of men and in time, in effect laid aside the commandment of God. Jesus, during His time on earth, told them, particularly their leaders, them who teach the words of God to the people, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition." Jesus even said of them "...you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying: ‘These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me. And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ " He also said they make the word of God of no effect through their tradition which they have handed down.

As I said in my other posts, tradition may or may not be in keeping with the truth found in scriptures. So, the Christian should beware. Examine them by going to the unchanging and infallible word of God in scriptures.


Tong
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That quote does not say what you say it means sir. It does not say I can do no wrong because God will not allow it sir. In fact, those in the quote are from the words of Jude concerning God, Him who is able to keep me and who keeps me. The Lord is my keeper. Do you know what that means?

Tong
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you continue to contradict yourself, sir
 
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Never said that. I was Catholic and didn't because it was hard, it wasn't hard enough. I left after Francis took over and started dismantling the Church, I can't abide being under a liberal Christian. Pope Benedict was the best and it was great under him.
Then you never had faith in the apostolic institution of the holy eucharist, the true body and blood of Jesus Christ. Anybody who has faith in the holy eucharist would NEVER leave the Church because of a person they don't like.
 

Tong2020

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you continue to contradict yourself, sir
Perhaps it's a matter of comprehension sir.

On the subject of the security of salvation:

Me: You apparently seem not to believe that He is able to keep you from stumbling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory, because you see man as having a will, powerful enough, that he can get out of God's hand anytime he so desires and choose to, and that he has the power to get back to God anytime he so desires and choose to and have God save him.

You: The devil is teaching you that you can do no wrong because God will not allow that.

Me: Never said that you can do no wrong because God will not allow it sir.

You: Your words bro!

Me: It does not say I can do no wrong because God will not allow it sir. In fact, those in the quote are from the words of Jude concerning God, Him who is able to keep me and who keeps me.

Tong
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historyb

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Then you never had faith in the apostolic institution of the holy Eucharist, the true body and blood of Jesus Christ. Anybody who has faith in the holy Eucharist would NEVER leave the Church because of a person they don't like.

That is a judgement and you don't know me and you didn't capitalize Eucharist, how Holy can it be to you (bet you don't like that, well neither did I). There are others who have the Holy Eucharist now just the Catholic Church, the Orthodox have the Holy Eucharist and so does my Church as we trace our linage back to the Apostles themselves through the Bishopic. I think you as a Catholic have your own problems now that the Pope endorsed same sex civil unions by proxy now endorses homosexuality. You can act all morally superior but you have a Shepard trying to destroy his flock
 
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He is able to keep you from stumbling, and present you faultless before the presence of His glory
Me: Never said that you can do no wrong because God will not allow it sir.
You quote a verse in the Bible that states God will keep you from stumbling and present you faultless.

This is in context of sinning greatly and death to your sins after you were holy; that was the original question to you.

You use the verse from Jude and then you state you "can" do wrong. Does "can do wrong" mean sin? And, what does "keep you from stumbling" and "present you faultless" mean?
 
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That is a judgement and you don't know me and you didn't capitalize Eucharist, how Holy can it be to you (bet you don't like that, well neither did I). There are others who have the Holy Eucharist now just the Catholic Church, the Orthodox have the Holy Eucharist and so does my Church as we trace our linage back to the Apostles themselves through the Bishopic. I think you as a Catholic have your own problems now that the Pope endorsed same sex civil unions by proxy now endorses homosexuality. You can act all morally superior but you have a Shepard trying to destroy his flock

Please show facts of your linage back to the Apostles, please! Do you actually think God would allow anybody to turn bread and wine and into his body and blood?

There is a history of bad Popes, etc... This opinion of the Pope is not doctrine.
 

Tong2020

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You quote a verse in the Bible that states God will keep you from stumbling and present you faultless.
Yes I did. For that is how God keeps them whom He saves. And I quoted that in response to the subject of the security of salvation of them whom God saves, which you don't believe. For in your belief, while you claim to be a Christian, you believe you have the freedom and power to reject Him anytime you will to do so, thereby rendering God not able to keep you and not able to save you.

I am curious. Do you truly and really believe you are able to reject Him if you so willed to? Can you tell me what possible reason would it be that you will reject Him?

This is in context of sinning greatly and death to your sins after you were holy; that was the original question to you.
Your original question was and I quote:

Truthcampaign.org said:
If a man falls in love with Jesus for many years, receives the Grace from God to be saved and God blesses him greatly but then years later he falls away from God, murders people, has orgies, becomes a devil worshiper, etc... and hates God with all his heart - then dies. Do you believe he will still be saved? Yes or no?
And my response to that, and I quote:

Tong2020 said:
That question is really for those who believes like you, not for me. For you believe that a true believer can be like one who "falls in love with Jesus for many years, receives the Grace from God to be saved and God blesses him greatly but then years later he falls away from God, murders people, has orgies, becomes a devil worshiper, etc... and hates God with all his heart. ". I don't......
____________________________
You use the verse from Jude and then you state you "can" do wrong. Does "can do wrong" mean sin? And, what does "keep you from stumbling" and "present you faultless" mean?
I used that verse about God from Jude to show you that it is God who keeps them whom He saves, them who are preserved in Jesus Christ.

<<<Does "can do wrong" mean sin?>>>
Yes.

<<<And, what does "keep you from stumbling" and "present you faultless" mean?>>>
"keep you from stumbling" speaks of God's ability to "keep" them whom He saves, safe and faithful.

In your belief, do you believe that God keeps you? If so, what does that mean in your belief?

"present you faultless" does not mean without sin or that we have not sinned. It means having no justifiable ground for accusation.

Tong
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I am curious. Do you truly and really believe you are able to reject Him if you so willed to?
Yes and Bible that the Catholic Church compiled says so. Here's a couple verses:

St. Paul said to the believing Christians of his time:

Romans 11:22: “Consider the kindness and severity of God—severity toward those who fell, and kindness toward you, provided you remain in his kindness; if you do not, you too will be cut off.”

Galatians 6:9: “Let us not grow weary of doing good; if we do not relax our efforts, in due time we shall reap our harvest.”

Philippians 2:12: “So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation.”

1 Timothy 1:19: “Some men, by rejecting the guidance of conscience, have made shipwreck of their faith.”

1 Timothy 4:16: “Watch yourself and watch your teaching. Persevere at both tasks. By doing so you will bring to salvation yourself and all who hear you.”

Similarly, the author of Hebrews is clearly not working in a “once saved, always saved” paradigm when he speaks to believing Christians:

Hebrews 4:1: “Therefore, while the promise of entrance into his rest still holds, we ought to be fearful of disobeying lest any one of you be judged to have lost his chance of entering.”

Hebrews 4:11: “Let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall.”

St. Peter describes the miserable lot of those who know Christ as Savior but later fall away:

2 Peter 2:20: “When men have fled a polluted world by recognizing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are caught up and overcome in pollution once more, their last condition is worse than their first.”

There is no absolute assurance.

Think about this, what would the devil want you to believe? What if you're wrong and God does allow you to stumble and allows you to fall away and lose salvation, like scripture states. And you still believe in your mind that this can't happen... How easy would it be for the devil to come into your life and consume you? You are opening yourself up to weakness and evil. This belief you have is from Satan. I'll pray for you. God Bless.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
I am curious. Do you truly and really believe you are able to reject Him if you so willed to?
Firstly, I wonder why you only addressed this question and dropped the other questions as follows:

Can you tell me what possible reason would it be that you will reject Him?

and

In your belief, do you believe that God keeps you? If so, what does that mean in your belief?

I hope you will address those too.

So, you believe you are able to reject Him if you so willed to. But why do you not? I'd guess you'd say, it is because you love Him. If we will look at those who truly love Him, just like the apostles, there was not even a hint that they will reject Him. Even while they could, they did not. Why? Because they truly love Him, for love never fails. How then could they who loves God reject Him? One who profess to love God and believes He is able to reject Him anytime he so wills to, and perhaps later actually rejects Him, only means that what love he profess and claims for God is not true love, for scriptures says, love never fails.

....and Bible that the Catholic Church compiled says so. Here's a couple verses:

St. Paul said to the believing Christians of his time:

Romans 11:22: “Consider the kindness and severity of God—severity toward those who fell, and kindness toward you, provided you remain in his kindness; if you do not, you too will be cut off.”

Galatians 6:9: “Let us not grow weary of doing good; if we do not relax our efforts, in due time we shall reap our harvest.”

Philippians 2:12: “So then, my dearly beloved, obedient as always to my urging, work with anxious concern to achieve your salvation.”

1 Timothy 1:19: “Some men, by rejecting the guidance of conscience, have made shipwreck of their faith.”

1 Timothy 4:16: “Watch yourself and watch your teaching. Persevere at both tasks. By doing so you will bring to salvation yourself and all who hear you.”
Take those scriptures in context sir.

Similarly, the author of Hebrews is clearly not working in a “once saved, always saved” paradigm when he speaks to believing Christians:

Hebrews 4:1: “Therefore, while the promise of entrance into his rest still holds, we ought to be fearful of disobeying lest any one of you be judged to have lost his chance of entering.”

Hebrews 4:11: “Let us strive to enter into that rest, so that no one may fall.”
That's your opinion about the author of Hebrews, which you seem to not understand what he was saying in those verses.

St. Peter describes the miserable lot of those who know Christ as Savior but later fall away:

2 Peter 2:20: “When men have fled a polluted world by recognizing the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are caught up and overcome in pollution once more, their last condition is worse than their first.”
Again, a misuse of scriptures there.

There is no absolute assurance.
That is your opinion and so then it is with you. As for me, there is absolute assurance for one who is in Christ.

You believe that there is no absolute assurance of one's salvation, and that because you are able to reject Christ anytime you will to do so. And how could you believe in absolute assurance when your salvation rest on your will? Try surrendering that will, your will, to Jesus Christ and you will have assurance, for then your salvation rest on Jesus Christ.

Think about this, what would the devil want you to believe? What if you're wrong and God does allow you to stumble and allows you to fall away and lose salvation, like scripture states. And you still believe in your mind that this can't happen... How easy would it be for the devil to come into your life and consume you? You are opening yourself up to weakness and evil. This belief you have is from Satan. I'll pray for you. God Bless.
<<<Think about this, what would the devil want you to believe?>>>
The devil wants me to not believe God's words (in scriptures) and instead believe his words, just like what he wanted of Eve in the beginning.

<<<What if you're wrong and God does allow you to stumble and allows you to fall away and lose salvation, like scripture states.>>>
How could I be wrong about what Scriptures says of God in Jude 1:24, that God is able to keep those whom He saves from stumbling? So, don't trouble yourself thinking that what is written in Jude 1:24 could be wrong, that God is not able to keep me.

Tong
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So, you believe you are able to reject Him if you so willed to. But why do you not? I'd guess you'd say, it is because you love Him. If we will look at those who truly love Him, just like the apostles, there was not even a hint that they will reject Him. Even while they could, they did not. Why? Because they truly love Him, for love never fails. How then could they who loves God reject Him? One who profess to love God and believes He is able to reject Him anytime he so wills to, and perhaps later actually rejects Him, only means that what love he profess and claims for God is not true love, for scriptures says, love never fails.

Love for someone can end up failing. To love someone is not always easy. The transition of love of God from flesh to the spirit has alway been a trial for man because we live in the flesh.

The science of love tells you that anybody can truly love something and later lose that love. What keeps you from losing that love of God is prayer, scripture, Mass, the Holy Eucharist, etc... which is work

If you stopped reading the Bible, praying and stopped thinking about God, you would lose that love you have of God. And, history shows that you would mostly like fall into sin.
 
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Can you tell me what possible reason would it be that you will reject Him?
I believe that by committing sins, you are rejecting him. I try not to sin but I'm human just like you. If you can't see this, then you are probably sinning all time and using your beliefs to help you sin more.
 

Tong2020

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Love for someone can end up failing. To love someone is not always easy. The transition of love of God from flesh to the spirit has alway been a trial for man because we live in the flesh.

The science of love tells you that anybody can truly love something and later lose that love. What keeps you from losing that love of God is prayer, scripture, Mass, the Holy Eucharist, etc... which is work

If you stopped reading the Bible, praying and stopped thinking about God, you would lose that love you have of God. And, history shows that you would mostly like fall into sin.
The Holy Spirit, through Paul, said of love, that it never fails. If you know love differently, then know what love is as taught by the Holy Spirit, and not as taught by anyone else.

<<<To love someone is not always easy. The transition of love of God from flesh to the spirit has alway been a trial for man because we live in the flesh.>>>

With those who are in Christ, in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, that is not the case.

<<<The science of love tells you that anybody can truly love something and later lose that love.>>>

Science of love? So, you were taught by the science of love? That anybody can truly love something and later lose that love? Now I know what love you know and where that idea of love of yours is coming from.

<<<What keeps you from losing that love of God is prayer, scripture, Mass, the Holy Eucharist, etc... which is work>>>

Perhaps in your case, prayer, scripture, Mass, the Holy Eucharist, etc., that is, your works, keep you, well not in my case. In my case, it is not what I do that keeps me in Christ, but it is God, just as scriptures said. The Lord is my Shepherd who keeps me. The Lord is the Good Shepherd who watch over His sheep and keep them, and they shall never perish and neither shall anyone snatch them out of His hand.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Can you tell me what possible reason would it be that you will reject Him?
I believe that by committing sins, you are rejecting him. I try not to sin but I'm human just like you. If you can't see this, then you are probably sinning all time and using your beliefs to help you sin more.
So, when you sin, that to you means you reject Him? Now I see clearly what you believe. And you are right, I don't see as you see.

Well then, how often do you sin? Would you say you sin every day, every week, every month....? In your belief, as often as you sin, is as often as you reject Him. In your belief, that would also make the apostles, and all Christians for that matter, to have rejected God as often as they sinned. That's a strange doctrine I would have to say. Where did you learn that? I am quite sure that it is not from scriptures. Is that a doctrine of the Catholic Church?

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
In your belief, do you believe that God keeps you? If so, what does that mean in your belief?
I've already addressed this. God keeps you and will not throw you out, but gives you the option to leave through free will, via sin.
That is not what I am asking.

My first question is "do you believe that God keeps you?

My second question is what to you means being kept by God.

Tong
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