John 6:66 - Why did many disciples stop following Jesus?

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No assumption there again sir. Jesus explained in relation to that, in verses 38-40, where He said in verse 39, "....of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.".
No sir! You have totally misinterpreted the verse. It clearly states the Father's Will is that none will be lost. There is a requirement!!! You have to see and believe!!!

39 Now the will of him who sent me is that I should lose nothing of all that he has given to me, but that I should raise it up on the last day.

40 It is my Father's will that whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise that person up on the last day.

If they understood what Jesus was telling them, they would not have such argument or questions.

They are arguing because they didn't believe what he was saying. To eat his flesh and drink his to be saved. Whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life
 

Tong2020

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It does. But perhaps it was not clear enough for you:


Peace!
Well, you can say that, but it does not answer the question. This is the scriptures you quoted , from which my question is coming from.

John 5:39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Question: what does coming to Jesus means to you? In v. 40, what does "come to Me" means?

And you give a video of your tradition in answer. You cited those scriptures so I presumed you understood what it says. But a simple question such as that, which you could not give a simple answer, only means my presumption regarding you was wrong.

Posting a video of your tradition does not refute my statement: "Whether there is a 2000 year old Christian community or not is not the basis of truth, but the infallible and unchangeable scriptures is.". It clearly does not. For as
I pointed out, all truth from God is preserved in the scriptures, not in traditions of men.

Tong
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Philip James

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. For as I pointed out, all truth from God is preserved in the scriptures, not in traditions of men.

You think the traditions of the apostles are the tradition of men? No wonder you have trouble believeing Jesus' words..
Be not afraid!
 

Tong2020

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No sir! You have totally misinterpreted the verse. It clearly states the Father's Will is that none will be lost. There is a requirement!!! You have to see and believe!!!

39 Now the will of him who sent me is that I should lose nothing of all that he has given to me, but that I should raise it up on the last day.

40 It is my Father's will that whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and that I should raise that person up on the last day.
The other way around sir.

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

The Father gives to the Son, Jesus Christ. What does the Father gives to the Son? He gives Him people. Regarding these people, it is the will of the Father that the Son will raise them up at the last day unto eternal life. It is the will of the Father that none of them will be lost and not be saved. Jesus Christ, in v.38 reveals that He had come down from heaven to do this will of the Father, and He will. Do you believe that, or believe that He will in some sense fail, as to lose one, two, three, few, many, plenty, because people have the power and will to cast themselves out from Jesus Christ?

If you do not see that there yet, as it seems that way, then perhaps that passage isn't for your understanding yet.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You see a requirement in that verse, I see none. Jesus, in verse 40, as He did in verse 39, continue to tell of what the will of the Father is concerning those whom He gives to Him. The part that says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him" does not tell us that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life. No sir. Rather, "that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life", is likewise speaking of the will of the Father and in a sense identifies them. Jesus was saying that the will of the Father for them whom He gives to Him is for them to have everlasting life. For as they were given by the Father to the Son for salvation, and since the salvation of God is through faith, so they will be saved through faith, and are saved unto having everlasting life.
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Tong2020 said:
If they understood what Jesus was telling them, they would not have such argument or questions.

They are arguing because they didn't believe what he was saying. To eat his flesh and drink his to be saved. Whoever sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life
Believing and not believing is not what they murmur, complain and argue about. What they murmur, complain and argue about is about what Jesus said, that is, that He is the bread of life which came down from heaven (v.41-42), and that He is giving His flesh for them to eat (v.52). Verse 60 says "Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”, It's the sayings of Jesus that they murmured, complained and argued about, the argument being that who can understand it? So, it's the matter of understanding the sayings of Jesus that is the point of argument. They argued because they did not understand and not because they did not believe. For if they understood the sayings of Jesus, they would not say "This is a hard saying; who can understand it?". The matter even is, because they did not understand, how can they even believe?

Tong
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Tong2020

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You think the traditions of the apostles are the tradition of men? No wonder you have trouble believeing Jesus' words..
Be not afraid!
If there be any trouble with the believer, I think it is not on believing Jesus' words, but in the understanding of Jesus' words. Another trouble perhaps is when they put so much confidence and depend too much in those whom they consider their leaders and in their traditions, that they become lazy to not diligently do as the Bereans in the time of the apostles, who examines scriptures the things being taught them if they are so.

Traditions may or may not be in keeping with the truth found in the words of God in scriptures. How do we know that a tradition is in keeping with the truth? There is no other way but to go to the scriptures.

Tong
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The other way around sir.

John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.


The Father gives to the Son, Jesus Christ. What does the Father gives to the Son? He gives Him people. Regarding these people, it is the will of the Father that the Son will raise them up at the last day unto eternal life. It is the will of the Father that none of them will be lost and not be saved. Jesus Christ, in v.38 reveals that He had come down from heaven to do this will of the Father, and He will. Do you believe that, or believe that He will in some sense fail, as to lose one, two, three, few, many, plenty, because people have the power and will to cast themselves out from Jesus Christ?

By "no means" what? Cast out. To drive out, to banish, to oust, to throw out, etc... It's the action of someone doing to another. To cast out doesn't mean to leave on one's own will. You should NOT twist and turn bible verses and their meanings.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You see a requirement in that verse, I see none. Jesus, in verse 40, as He did in verse 39, continue to tell of what the will of the Father is concerning those whom He gives to Him. The part that says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him" does not tell us that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life. No sir. Rather, "that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life", is likewise speaking of the will of the Father and in a sense identifies them. Jesus was saying that the will of the Father for them whom He gives to Him is for them to have everlasting life. For as they were given by the Father to the Son for salvation, and since the salvation of God is through faith, so they will be saved through faith, and are saved unto having everlasting life.

The part that says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him" does not tell us that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life. No sir.
They don't have to believe?

For as they were given by the Father to the Son for salvation, and since the salvation of God is through faith, so they will be saved through faith, and are saved unto having everlasting life.
What??? You don't make sense. Believe is a component of faith. To have faith is to believe and trust in the Lord. You just contradicted yourself.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You continue to utterly slaughter these verses. I mean, according to you since you believe the Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretations, the Holy Spirit continues to slaughter these verses.

I will pray for you! God Bless.
 

Tong2020

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By "no means" what? Cast out. To drive out, to banish, to oust, to throw out, etc... It's the action of someone doing to another. To cast out doesn't mean to leave on one's own will. You should NOT twist and turn bible verses and their meanings.
There is no twist and turn there sir. What you have there is evade the question "Do you believe that, or believe that He will in some sense fail, as to lose one, two, three, few, many, plenty, because people have the power and will to cast themselves out from Jesus Christ?" Why do you evade my questions?

Now here, you seem to argue against yourself regarding the matter of oneself casting himself out. I just picked that "casting himself out" from you. You said in your post, "You assume, “I will not cast out" means the disciples cannot cast themselves out, correct?".
______________________
Tong2020 said:
The part that says "everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him" does not tell us that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life. No sir.

They don't have to believe?
Didn't you understand what I said there?
___________________
Tong2020 said:
For as they were given by the Father to the Son for salvation, and since the salvation of God is through faith, so they will be saved through faith, and are saved unto having everlasting life.

What??? You don't make sense. Believe is a component of faith. To have faith is to believe and trust in the Lord. You just contradicted yourself.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

You continue to utterly slaughter these verses. I mean, according to you since you believe the Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretations, the Holy Spirit continues to slaughter these verses.

I will pray for you! God Bless.
Perhaps I don't make sense to you, but it's not that I don't make sense sir. If I don't make sense to you, it means you don't understand what I am saying to you.

Yes, to have faith is to believe and trust in the Lord. And a lot more, I would have to point out. So? Does that make what Jesus said regarding the will of the Father that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life" in verse 40, into saying that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life? No sir.

Tong
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Yes, to have faith is to believe and trust in the Lord. And a lot more, I would have to point out. So? Does that make what Jesus said regarding the will of the Father that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life" in verse 40, into saying that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life? No sir.

Matthew 7:21 'It is not anyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God Bless
 

Tong2020

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Matthew 7:21 'It is not anyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," who will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but the person who does the will of my Father in heaven.

John 6:40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

God Bless
Mt. 7:21 does not make what Jesus said regarding the will of the Father that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life in verse 40, into saying that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life.

Quoting scriptures does good, but not when misusing them.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is through faith and not of the person nor it is of works.

Once upon a time, God destroyed literally all of man on the surface of the earth, saved 8 persons, Noah and his family. They were saved by God from being destroyed in the flood by grace through faith.

Tong
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Mt. 7:21 does not make what Jesus said regarding the will of the Father that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life in verse 40, into saying that those whom the Father had given to the Son are being required to believe nor that by believing they will have eternal life.

Quoting scriptures does good, but not when misusing them.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Salvation is through faith and not of the person nor it is of works.

Once upon a time, God destroyed literally all of man on the surface of the earth, saved 8 persons, Noah and his family. They were saved by God from being destroyed in the flood by grace through faith.

Tong
R1336
So hilariously sad!

This is why we need the Church to help guide us! You make no sense.

PS: Having faith is work my friend

For faith without works is dead according to St James; the letter Luther tried taking out of the Bible. In most of St. Paul's writings, he refers "work" to the works of Jewish tradition. So yes, those works are not needed.

God Bless
 

Tong2020

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So hilariously sad!

This is why we need the Church to help guide us! You make no sense.

PS: Having faith is work my friend
Make no mistake, the church is not the Teacher, Jesus Christ is. The church is not the Teacher, God is. He is the truth.

Faith does not come from man, but from God through which He saves mankind.

For faith without works is dead according to St James; the letter Luther tried taking out of the Bible. In most of St. Paul's writings, he refers "work" to the works of Jewish tradition. So yes, those works are not needed.

God Bless
Yes, James did say, faith without works is dead, but he did not say that faith is work that man does, moreso that it is work that when done, the person gets to attain salvation.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Haven't you heard? Christ and His Church are One!

Peace!
If by that you take the church as the Teacher, so be it with you. As for me, I believe in the scriptures that says that there is only one teacher, the Teacher, Jesus Christ.

Tong
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historyb

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What do you understand by that?

Tong
R1339

The Church is it not the Bible, the Bible came from Holy Tradition and the Church came from Christ. The Church has been invested by Christ with the authority to teach and not every man or woman thinking they know how things ought to be because "Jesus is my teacher"
 

Tong2020

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The Church is it not the Bible, the Bible came from Holy Tradition and the Church came from Christ. The Church has been invested by Christ with the authority to teach and not every man or woman thinking they know how things ought to be because "Jesus is my teacher"
I never heard anyone here that said that the church is the Bible.?

The Bible might have been the product of tradition, but it did not come from tradition, but from God. For the author of scriptures is God, which embodies the word of God.

The church did not come from Christ, but Jesus Christ is the builder of the church. The church might have been authorized by Jesus Christ to teach but not those who teach or consider themselves teachers are the Teacher, for there is one teacher, Jesus Christ. Not that the church teach, that they do not err in what they teach. They do not replace the scriptures, which is unchanging and infallible. So. it is on every Christian to go to the scriptures to see whether what they are taught and what is preached to them is in keeping with scriptures and is the truth.

Tong
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Make no mistake, the church is not the Teacher, Jesus Christ is. The church is not the Teacher, God is. He is the truth.

Faith does not come from man, but from God through which He saves mankind.


Yes, James did say, faith without works is dead, but he did not say that faith is work that man does, moreso that it is work that when done, the person gets to attain salvation.

Tong
R1337
If a man falls in love with Jesus for many years, receives the Grace from God to be saved and God blesses him greatly but then years later he falls away from God, murders people, has orgies, becomes a devil worshiper, etc... and hates God with all his heart - then dies. Do you believe he will still be saved? Yes or no?