2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
This is all so simple. It boggles me that what I am saying doesn't put an end to the whole matter.
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
Again, Paul is not 1300 years old. You are still letting present tense trick you, so is Romans 8:2 true or not? Is sin still dwelling in Paul, or is he been freed from sin dwelling in him?
The present tense is not a trick, it is truth.
Paul is not saying the Law came to someone else, and that killed Paul. Paul is saying he was alive, then the Law came, and produced sin in him, and he died.
Your assertion is that he's saying the Law came to someone else 1300 years earlier, and that was the death of Paul. The Law does not induce sin because someone else is given the commandment. The Law produces sin in the one who receives the commandment.
Follow the tenses, and believe what you read without changing it.
It is no longer I that do it, but sin that lives in me. In my members is the law of sin, and my body is subject to the law of sin and death, but I've been set free from that law, or principle, of sin and death.
Much love!
See, I have this thing . . . when I read the Bible, I accept what it says in the regular meaning of language, and then adjust my view to fit. What I've found is a real harmony in the Scriptures. People talk about "tension" in the Scriptures. I think that just means they haven't fully understood, and still feel there are conflicts. I don't think there are. I don't find this "tension". I read it, accept it, and it all fits together.
And in faith I walk in the Spirit. No "second benefit". No "special dispensation". Just trusting in the finished work of Christ.
Much love!
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
The law came to mankind through Moses. Before the law, sin was not imputed to man.
In what way have you been set free from the law of sin and death, but you still have sin in your members? I hope you don't mean that what you do that God would call sinful, is not imputed to you, so you are free from the law, and not sin, itself.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
I read the whole context and Romans 7:13 to Romans 7:25 actually includes the climax verse of Romans 8:2. We are free from sin, so are no longer under the law. It is the sole purpose of Christ dying for us. Not to just take the consequences of sin from us, but to take the sin nature away from us that produced sin in us in the first place. 1 John 3:5.
Listen.
Paul had no sin, as soon as Jesus died for it.
Try to understand the effect of the Cross, at some point in your life.
What Paul had, was an issue with failing to be a perfect disciple....."that which i would do, i dont do, and that which i dont want to do"....etc.
So, who will save me , """"free me from this BODY OF DEATH.""""
Do you see the issue?
The issue is the body of DEATH......This is the old man being empowered to sin, by the dominion of the Law.
"The power of sin, is the LAW".
Its not a sin problem, charismatic lady, as Paul's sin is Gone....Its a "body of death problem" that is controlling Paul's behavior, until he stopped being under the dominion of the Law.
Once he understood this, he then had "VICTORY"....."Jesus always gives me VICTORY">....
Paul discovered that the Victory is "In Christ", and the failure is in willpower.
So, how did he get there?
I explain this in about 2 books worth of Threads on this forum, and not just on this one.
He got there the same way everyone can, and that is by Right Believing.
Our born again Spirit that is birthed INTO God's Spirit, has been "circumcised" FROM the old man.
This is our incorruptible part, that is spiritually cut away from the "flesh", = the old man.
Yet, the old man has the same desires as always. Lust. always this.
This tries to become our mind, and we are not to fight it, as then we are engaging it, and that is Paul....>"that which i would do, i dont do, and that which i dont want to do, i do"........that is Paul resisting, vs "reckoning it dead".
If we fight , if we live in striving to resist the old man, then the dominion of the Law empowers our old man to be stronger, and we fail., we fall.
Paul finally teaches us not to fight, but to "reckon the old man dead"...
It not exactly ignoring it, it's more to do with understanding that it has no power over us, and is not the real us.
Obviously to renew our mind is not to try to deal with our old man's desire to fulfill lust.
So, the renewing of the mind, is the mind of Christ, ....its walking in the Spirit, its existing in the resting place that is God's Grace.
We overcome the old man, by resting in God's Grace......not by striving against it.
we are corrected, not beaten.
Here is how God corrects......
Lets say you are in a store and you buy food. You pay Cash.
When you get to the car, and its Hot.....>its August, you are sweating......you want to turn on the AC and cool off, as its hot outside.
But, you have a lot of Groceries. By the time you are finished putting them in the Car you are just so HOT.
You get inside the car, and you then notice that the Cashier has given you back too much change.....She gave you too much money back.
So, you think....."great".........as that is the flesh.......immediately pops up in your mind.
But then, a still small voice says.....>"go back inside, and make this right".
That is God's Correction. And He does this all the time.
Brother, its Paul that teaches about the reconciliation.
2nd Corinthians 5:19,20. "Be ye RECONCILED"....
This is all just basic Pauline Theology.
Salvation is God gained and God offered and God sustained.
Its all of God.
He did it all on the Cross, and then by Death, and proved it by Resurrection.
ALL THAT, is the "finished work of Jesus".
Its a completed Salvation.....and its just waiting for all to get it, to receive it........to be reconciled back to God, by it.
The heretic teaches......"God starts your salvation and then you live right till you die, abide and confess, and if you do, you might just get into heaven.
They teach that "working out your salvation" is to keep yourself saved.
God teaches......>"I started your salvation in you, i and will be faithful to complete it"..
Philippians 1:6
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There is a sin nature that is our old man, that is nailed to the Cross with Jesus.
Paul told us to understand this, and to reckon that old man to be nailed to the Cross with Jesus, to "reckon" it dead.
Paul teaches that God does not see this old man, our adamic nature, after we are saved, and He does not impute sin to our born again incorruptible man. Romans 4:8
Where Christians get bound up by wrong believing, is by not being able to perceive of themselves as the "new Creation in Christ".
They continue to see themselves as that part that is nailed to the Cross that is leading them to lust.
So, as long as they are mentally caught up in that, this wrong believing....the wrong "mind".... then the Law's dominion will keep energizing their old man to control their behavior.
Paul teaches that we are to put all that away, and to come to the Grace of God, and REST from our self effort, and in this Resting, we find the Power of Christ to be delivered into "VICTORY"< as Paul teaches. = "Always".
I have a different understanding of "being born again" than most people. Here's an article that I wrote many years ago to explain it:
Many Christians seem to misunderstand what it means to be “born again”. They may ask you if you have been “born again”, and claim that they have been. However, this is a misconception, probably resulting from misleading translations of the Scriptures. The misunderstanding comes from John chapter 3 which describes part of the discussion between Jesus and Nicodemus:
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The Greek word that is here translated as “born” is gennao, and the word that’s translated as “again” is anothen. The word gennao can be translated as either born or begotten according to the context. If it is in reference to the masculine then it should be begotten, if it is in reference to the feminine it should be born. If used with “ek”, signifying from or out of, it should be translated born. For example, Matthew 1:16, “And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ”, where the words begat and born are both translated from the Greek word gennao. The Greek word anothen is also sometimes translated “from above” and could, or should, be so translated in verse 3. It should therefore be more correctly translated, “Except a man be begotten from above”.
It’s easier to understand that this is the correct meaning when we harmonise it with other verses of Scripture. For example, Colossians 1:18 tells us that Jesus was “the firstborn from the dead”, so his resurrection from death is referred to as a birth. The book of Revelation mentions a second death four times, but there can’t be a second death without a second birth (the resurrection) preceding it. If, as many Christian profess, our conversion to Christianity is considered being born again, then that means we have to be born three times before we can see the Kingdom of God, which is not what Jesus said.
Jesus went on to say in verse 6, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. Here Jesus is clearly stating that if we have a human birth then we are a human being; and if we have a spiritual birth then we are a spiritual being. Jesus was born of the flesh, and was a human being, but after his death he was born again as a spiritual being – “He was put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit” (1 Peter 3:18). And as it was for Jesus, the head of the body of Christ, then so it will be for all members of the body of Christ. All Christians must die, but they then have a part in the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-6), and are resurrected to life again as spiritual beings. As Paul explained to Christians about what kind of resurrection body they would have in 1 Cor 15:44, “It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body”. And in Romans 8:29, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren”, so as Jesus’ resurrection was him being born again, so it is for Christians that their resurrection is when they will be born again. They will be resurrected as spirit beings too, for “flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God” (1Cor 15:44).
Confirmation that Jesus’ baptism was when he was begotten again, and not born again, is that at his baptism “there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased” (Mark 1:11). This was the fulfilment of the prophecy of Psalm 2:7 which says, “I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee”.
Jesus went on to explain in verse 8, “The wind bloweth where it listeth,” i.e. where it desires, “and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit”. Here he is saying that everyone who is born of the spirit, i.e. is a spiritual being, is invisible to humans and can come and go wherever they like, but we cannot see them. Jesus has been invisible to us since his resurrection, except for a few brief periods between his resurrection and his ascension when he manifested himself in human form (as angels, who are also invisible spiritual beings, have similarly done on special occasions) in order to convince his followers that he had been resurrected. So if somebody says to you that they have been born again, and yet they cannot make themselves invisible (as Jesus did after his resurrection, e.g. Luke 24:31 “he vanished out of their sight”, or “He became invisible to them”, MKJV), and pass through walls and closed doors like Jesus did (John 20:19), then they are clearly mistaken!
Further evidence that our consecration and baptism is a begetting, and not a birth, comes from 1 John 3:9, which says, “Whosoever is born [begotten] of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born [begotten] of God”. Some translations, such as the American Standard Version, Darby Translation, Green’s Literal Translation, and Young’s Literal Translation, correctly translate gennao as begotten in this verse. However, it should be evident from the context that it must mean begotten because it refers to “his seed” remaining in the person. “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature” (2 Cor 5:17), but he is not born as a new creature until he is resurrected.
So how are we “begotten from above”? James 1:18 tells us that “Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be” (when we are born again) “a kind of firstfruits of his creatures”. Paul also said, “in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Cor 4:15), i.e. it was the power and grace of God working through him and his preaching of the gospel that led to their being begotten of God.
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (1 Peter 1:3).
“Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is” (1 John 3:2).
“And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly” (1 Cor 15:49).
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren” (Romans 8:29).
“Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust” (2 Peter 1:4).
I look forward with hope to being born again as a new creature in Christ Jesus, but until then if anyone asks, “have you been born again”, I will have to answer “not yet”!
Christ died on earth, and we must be born again on earth.
Christians will meet God as Father in Heaven, because they are born again on Earth.
If you are not born again on earth, then you will meet God as your Judge in heaven, and there is no remedy for His Judgment, in that Case.
There is just the eternal execution of the eternal verdict upon you.
Its this. John 3:36
So, take the remedy now, while you are still breathing.
CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
You are quoting Romans 7! What you are not understanding in Romans 7 is that was the conclusion of Paul's teaching on those who were UNDER THE LAW of the Old Covenant, Romans 7:1. We are not under the law. Why? Because after receiving the SPIRIT, we now keep the righteous requirements of the engraved on stone law, BY THE SPIRIT. When born again, which they weren't yet in Romans 7, the laws of God are written on our hearts where the sin nature used to be, but is no longer - it is dead, and so is our desire to sin.
Read the context that goes 9 verses into chapter 8. You need to shift your thinking from the human to the spiritual. 1 Cor. 2.
Or, Christ died on earth, and we must also follow in his footsteps and also die on earth. We will meet God in heaven as Father because we were begotten on earth as new creatures, and following in Jesus' footsteps we will be born (resurrected) as spirit beings, as part of a new creation, having the same divine nature as Jesus now has. Our resurrection is the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:4,5 - "I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." The rest of the dead are those who partake in the second resurrection, and are not granted eternal life until the end of the thousand years.
The judgement of the dead (those who have not yet been granted eternal life) occurs during and at the end of the millennial age, when Christ and Christians shall reign for a thousand years (Revelation 20:6), and sentencing occurs at the end of that thousand year reign. The dead are resurrected at the beginning of the thousand year period, and live on the earth as humans (not spirit beings in heaven). Jesus and resurrected Christians (Christ - head and body) will reign over them. Everyone who will be granted eternal life must believe in Jesus and God, those who refuse at the end of the millennial age will not be granted eternal life. Only those will then suffer the "eternal execution", or "second death" (Revelation 20:14,15).
The reason to "take the remedy now" is that we have the opportunity to become part of the new creation, to become part of God's household and become adopted sons of God - "the hope of glory" - "having the eyes of your hearts enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of his calling, and what are the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints", (Eph 1:18), "the mystery which has been hidden for ages and generations. But now it has been revealed to his saints, to whom God was pleased to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col 1:26,27).
If we don't take the opportunity, or we never get the chance to hear the Gospel, then we will still have the opportunity of eternal life on earth as humans.
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CharismaticLady
Well-Known Member
The born again experience is MORE than us reckoning ourselves dead to sin as if nothing actually happened, like putting on a costume over filth. No! The filth is gone! so remember that!
In Philippians , Paul explains what you are not understanding.
He says that all his righteousness is dung.
So, that is what he is expressing in Romans 7, when he is showing you how the dung works when a born again person, tries to do it.
You've seen my Threads? My Threads are loaded from top to bottom, especially the first few months, with Legalists, who....just like Paul are sinning and confessing and Repenting.
Do you understand?
So, on this Forum, and worldwide, you have most Christians, trying to do what Paul was explaining is a FAIL.
I teach how to stop this, and you teach, ummm.....something that makes no sense.....except to you.
All the born again are dead, already.
We died, and we were born anew as "new Creations in Christ".
This is why we will receive a new body......It will house the NEW Us, the BORN AGAIN, Us. = The REAL Us.
There is no more death for us, there is only the shedding of the body as we enter into the new one.
I think of this as not grappling with sin and temptation, rather, stepping away from it, as it were.
When I come to realize that the mind of the flesh has crept in, I don't push that away, I just focus on God, and He fills my view.
If we don't reckon the old man dead, and especially if we choose to wear his guilt as if it were our own, then we don't have the confidence in our hearts with God to really walk fully in faith.
But when we come to really understand, and Believe, that our sins our competely done away with, and that we have no guilt, then our faith is free and easy, and we stand in the grace of God.
Resting in the finished work of Christ on the cross!
Much love!
