So then essentially you are just casting a wide net to find those who haven't been reborn, but think they are?But we have a huge and popular teaching in the church that says otherwise.
Much love!
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
So then essentially you are just casting a wide net to find those who haven't been reborn, but think they are?But we have a huge and popular teaching in the church that says otherwise.
I'm not saying Faith + as your recipe for salvation, what I'm saying is that it is by faith in Christ rather than by developing some quality in ourselves that we have victory over sin, including being sins of ingratitude, and being unloving.Faith + appreciation has nothing to do with something being added to faith in order to earn salvation.
By virtue of having the Holy Spirit in us we are obligated to be the new creation that the Holy Spirit within us has made us. I mean it only makes sense. If we have been given a mind set on the things of the Spirit it's reasonable to expect that we live according to the mind set we have. Just as the unsaved person still in the realm of the flesh is obligated to walk according to that mind set, so the saved person in the realm of the Spirit is obligated to walk according to that mind set.
God knows those who are His, but people get many different ideas. I believe at issue is if a man has been born again, that as we trust in Jesus Christ God gives us new birth, and we become forever His children.And so, many have placed their faith in this popular but heretical gospel that says unrepentant, unchanged, people who do not live righteously are saved to (just as long as they believed somewhere in the past).
I'm curious . . . do you see this sheep/goats judgment as a parable? I know many do. I see it as an event that will occur when Jesus returns at the end of this age, following the restoration of Israel to its promised land.Read the passage—Matthew 25:31-46. You're not going to be making your case. Jesus is going to look at the testimony of the life you lived here on earth. People who do not have works of righteousness (the evidence of their love for Jesus in salvation) will go to the lake of fire, while those who do have the evidence of their love for Jesus in salvation will go into the eternal kingdom.
So, then, is it really your core mission in this to convince me, others, that having been born again, that if we have bad behavior, we may become spiritually dead again?I understand your reluctance to accept what Paul is saying because it goes against the official teaching of the Protestant churches. Their teachings have been tainted by the once saved always saved argument. You just have to shake off the leaven of the leadership of the church and read the scriptures for yourself and adjust your theology accordingly.
When the 'exception' (as you perceive it) is plainly worded it SETS the rule. Preference is always given to the compelling, clear evidence.).
No, it's not a parable. It's literal except for the use of the goat and sheep metaphors used to describe the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous.I'm curious . . . do you see this sheep/goats judgment as a parable?
Yes, it's clear that it happens "When the Son of Man comes in his glory". That's what the whole chapter is about—being ready for the return of Christ. And as far as Israel, aren't they already restored to the promised land? We know this is in preparation for the return of Christ.I see it as an event that will occur when Jesus returns at the end of this age, following the restoration of Israel to its promised land.
I avoid the discussion. I just know Christ is going to return at the last trump. And whatever stages of the end-times I have to endure until he returns, so be it.I'm pre-trib pre-mil essentially, but if you want to explore that I do differ from what you may expect in some ways. Mostly it's just that I hold really tight to the text. That includes dispensationism, and this is a terrific example.
That is how I see it, with the exception that Jesus using our works as the evidence of our faith in no way is what MAKES us righteous before him. Our works during our lives on earth only reveal whether or not we possess the faith that all by itself makes one righteous. Even Paul said the faith that makes us righteous all by itself apart from works is the faith that expresses itself through love (Galatians 5:6). The 'expresses itself through love' part doesn't make anyone righteous. It's simply describes the quality of the faith that, all by itself, makes a person righteous before God. Without that quality, you show that you do not have the faith that justifies all by itself apart from the merit of works. Very, very few people in the church seem to be able to understand what I just wrote. Even when you explain it to them.Those who call this a parable will sometimes say, I'm not saying that you do, but they will sometimes say that this will be us being judged. And of course that would mean that works, and not faith, is the final determiner of whether you enter God's kingdom or face condemnation.
Is this how you see it?
I believe that too, except we are in the spiritual kingdom of God at this time. And for the obvious reason that we are not resurrected into our physical kingdom bodies yet. And I would change 'our having trusted in Christ' to 'our trusting in Christ'. All saved people, without exception, are presently believing. If you are not presently believing you are not presently saved.I believe we already ARE in God's kingdom, and this is already decided by are having trusted in Christ, and received rebirth from God.
It is the judgment just before the second death after the Millennial Reign and after the devil is cast into the lake of fire, and before the new heaven and earth—Revelation 20:11-13.And that this prophecy is of the time after Jesus returns, after the beast is defeated, after Israel is regathered, and after the gentile nations are brought before His throne. The same time prophesied by Joel, ch. 3.
Oh, I don't know about all that, specifically. I just know it's THE Judgment of mankind.They are judged according to whether they defied the beast and helped the Jews, or didn't help the Jews, in spite of God's word concerning His chosen.
I thought I had done a good job of explaining why he doesn't have to do it that way, but maybe why he has chosen to do it that way, nonetheless.But I truly fail to see why God would need to examine my works to determine whether I'm 'saved'. Doesn't He know His children? I don't understand why that wouldn't make sense to you.
I wouldn't describe it using that metaphor but, yes, I want those who have the potential to receive and believe the word of God to know they aren't saved if they are living in the mind set of the flesh. Paul says that person does not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ. I'm just laboring in the field and building of God.So then essentially you are just casting a wide net to find those who haven't been reborn, but think they are?
Much love!
I'm not filtering it through "you can lose your salvation". As I said, the chapter doesn't say anything about that either way. I just know it says the willfully sinning, unrepentant person in the church who claims to be a Christian is not saved and has to be turned over to satan for the destruction of their fleshly deed in order to be saved when Jesus comes back. But there are lots of preachers and teachers who will tell you that's not true. They say a confession of faith that is not accompanied by a change of life saves too because salvation is not by works, not knowing that living in the old life is the sign that a person does not possess the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works. Even Paul said the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that has the quality of being obedient to God in the command to love (Galatians 5:6).Now, i realize that you are stuck in this verse, 1 Corin 5:5..... and are not actually trying to consider that you might be filtering your verse through the heresy that you've been taught : "you can lose your salvation", as your incorrectly understanding your verse.
Even Paul, the primary revelatory teacher of 'righteousness by faith apart from the merit of works', says the faith that justifies all by itself apart from works is the faith that works the obedience of love (Galatians 5:6). That's not a works gospel, but very few in the church know why it's not a works gospel and so believe that faith that doesn't obey God in the command to love others saves too. Which is in complete contradiction to these verses too.....See, its like this.... heresy is a stronghold that is devil devised and captures you in a net of flesh.
What the Devil does, is .. he uses self righteousness or pride or both, mixed with deceit, and works all this together in your mind to build a stronghold.
I never made an argument that 1 Corinthians 5:5 shows us a born again person can lose his salvation. I have said over and over again that the chapter does not tell us that either way, and that it doesn't matter anyway. You just instantly assume I'm saying that, like most Christians do.Now to your one verse that you wrongly have concluded, proves to you, that a Christ filled born again believer will end up in the Lake of Fire.
"That his Spirit may be saved"....
I never made an argument that 1 Corinthians 5:5 shows us a born again person can lose his salvation. I have said over and over again that the chapter does not tell us that either way, and that it doesn't matter anyway. You just instantly assume I'm saying that, like most Christians do.What I have been showing from 1 Corinthians 5 (and other verses) is the willfully sinning person in the church who claims to be a brother is not saved. And that it doesn't matter if he was ever saved to begin with or not. What matters is he is living in willful, unrepentant sin and so is not saved. Once saved always saved doesn't change that fact.
But the church misses this plain fact in scripture because it has been taught that a 'Christian' who claims he is saved can be a willful, unrepentant sinner and be saved when Jesus comes back because salvation is not by works. Ignoring the fact that this chapter and other verses tell us that the willful, unrepentant sinner is not saved. It doesn't matter if he was ever saved or not. Make up your own mind about that. What matters is his life shows he is not saved and is not ready to meet Christ when he comes back. But the church does not tell us that. Instead many churches give us false comfort by telling us that how you live means nothing just as long as you believed, and that you are saved even if you are living in willful, unrepentant Christ rejecting, grace abusing sin.That's the heretical gospel of license tickling the ears of the church to their destruction in this end time just before Christ returns. But like I say, it has it's purpose. Those who claim to be saved but who receive that lie and live that way are being deceived by that doctrine to expose them for the Christ rejecters they really are so they can be condemned at Christ's return and receive the just penalty of destruction for their rejection of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10-12).
You are the one who is deceived. You are only capable of thinking that works being required in the life of the saved person can only be understood as those works earning salvation.there are no "works" YOU can do, that can match that CROSS, so, dont try that argument in public.
Therefore.... all self righteous arguments about..."works" and "abiding" and "fruit bearing",= to be saved or stay saved.... are created by deceived people who are ether not saved, or are saved, but are fallen from Grace.
So then you are addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and you want to show them that they are not if they have sin in their lives that they've never been able to stop?I wouldn't describe it using that metaphor but, yes, I want those who have the potential to receive and believe the word of God to know they aren't saved if they are living in the mind set of the flesh. Paul says that person does not have the Spirit and do not belong to Christ. I'm just laboring in the field and building of God.
And yet it appears to me that you are having those who were born of God, who are known by Him, that these will be judged according to their works to determine whether they are saved or not.That is how I see it, with the exception that Jesus using our works as the evidence of our faith in no way is what MAKES us righteous before him.
This seems to be near the center of the discussion.Our works during our lives on earth only reveal whether or not we possess the faith that all by itself makes one righteous.
Ferris Bueller,Works are required in salvation because salvation changes a person into a new creation.
You are the one who is deceived. You are only capable of thinking that works being required in the life of the saved person can only be understood as those works earning salvation.
Works are required in salvation because salvation changes a person into a new creation. .
Almost. I'm addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and I want to show them that they are not if they don't care that they have willful, deliberate, flagrant, unrepentant sin in their lives. Especially if they think they can be that way and be saved because salvation is not by works.So then you are addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and you want to show them that they are not if they have sin in their lives that they've never been able to stop?
You mean who put me on this mission to destroy people's false faith? The love of God in me—2 Corinthians 5:14, 2 Corinthians 5:20. I love the body of Christ. I love the truth. I love righteousness. I hate everything that is false and misleading and deceitful.Who put you on this mission to destroy people's faith?
Much love!
And what do you know about the faith in someone else? Maybe you can convince a weak brother that they are not really born again, when they are. What then?Almost. I'm addressing those who believe they have a living faith in God, who believe they are born again, and I want to show them that they are not if they don't care that they have willful, deliberate, flagrant, unrepentant sin in their lives. Especially if they think they can be that way and be saved because salvation is not by works.
You mean who put me on this mission to destroy people's false faith? The love of God in me—2 Corinthians 5:14, 2 Corinthians 5:20. I love the body of Christ. I love the truth. I love righteousness. I hate everything that is false and misleading and deceitful.
You mean who put me on this mission to destroy people's false faith? The love of God in me—2 Corinthians 5:14, 2 Corinthians 5:20. I love the body of Christ. I love the truth. I love righteousness. I hate everything that is false and misleading and deceitful.