Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

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bud02

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Aug 14, 2010
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You're simply not being sincere with the Scriptures. I quoted straight from the 1611 KJV Bible. Darby version?, now that is funny. Evidently you don't even know what the (KJV) abbreviation means! And I didn't know Darby was living in 1611.

And no, I'm not of the Darbyites, nor Scofield's, etc. I'm a Post-trib believer of Christ's second coming. Nor am I a Futurist, not anymore than God's prophets were who were given prophecy that didn't happen in their days, but was for way in their future. Just because a prophecy has a future fulfillment does not make one a Futurist. I also agree there was prophecy that was fulfilled and is past, so does that make me a Preterist or Historicist? Of course not. If one follows God's Word as written, they will find prophecy events past, present, and future. If they deny there is no more future prophecy then that is to say that all of God's Word has already been fulfilled today which would be a lie, for it's obvious Christ's second coming has not happenned yet, nor the end of this world as prophesied.

So I didn't use our Lord's parable in Matt.24, that part I quoted from our Lord was HIS teaching on the generation that is to see all those signs He gave. We cannot just omit that part of Christ's Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives, for it sets the timeline of "these things" He was declaring. That's why those signs He gave are connected with the events of His Revelation He gave through His Apostle John. And that's why He also connected them with the abomination prophecy from the Book of Daniel, which also is connected with events in Revelation, and even in Ezekiel 38-39.

The events of Dan.9:27 are about the events of the "vile person" in Dan.11. That's about the abomination idol setup by the vile person, of which Antiochus served as a pattern. The Romans in 70 A.D. also serve as a type, but not as good an example as Antiochus Epiphanes did. Yet Christ gave that abomination prophecy from Daniel long after Antiochus had been dead. The Romans did not fulfill it because the temple burned down. The abomination prophecy still expecting. But per your doctrine, it says it happenned with the Romans, which implies the false Christ event has already happenned.



I haven't misquoted you. You stated you didn't believe the vile person of Dan.11 is about our Lord Jesus. Good, I don't either, it's common sense. But to assign Christ as the "he" of Dan.9:27 is not common sense, for that also is about the "vile person" of Dan.11. It's more like your claim of being misquoted is an attempt to backpedal.



I know the Western Wall was not a wall of the old temple. It's the fact that Western Wall was standing in that area of the temple complex when Jesus said not one stone will be standing on top of another that matters, for He was speaking of the time of His return with a great earthquake in that area, even with the Mount of Olives splitting in two, half to the north and half to the south, with a great valley formed there running east to west (Zech.14). That has NEVER happenned to this day. And to show His disciples understood that's the timing and event He meant, they then asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world, meaning the literal end of this present world. He then gave seven signs that lead up to His return on the day of The LORD, and then sealed its timing with what He taught about the fig tree parable and last generation that would see those signs coming to pass. It's very simple really.

My mistake about the Darby version quote.

Any one that teaches the 70th week is yet to come is missing the message.
I'll echo the preachers I have heard threw the years, ---------God stopped the clock for Israel after the 69th week. Were still wanting for it to be fulfilled.
Gabriel is told, make this man understand the vision, the word understand is repeated four more times. Gabriel says, “Understand, son of man" Then he perfectly explains the Mead Persians, then the single horn, Alexander the Great, and at his death his 4 generals divided the empire . Right up to the Romans.
[sup]
[/sup] four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.
[sup]23[/sup] “ And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise, -----------------------------------------------The Romans
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
[sup]24[/sup] His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; -------------------------Interesting, has power, but its not his own.
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people. ---------------------destroy the holy people, you fill in the blank.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[sup][c][/sup]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes; ---------------rise against Jesus, is Jesus Prince of princes
But he shall be broken without human means.[sup][d][/sup]----------------there is only one thing that has survived the age from Rome the RCC.
[sup]26[/sup] “ And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.

[sup]27[/sup] And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; afterward I arose and went about the king’s business. I was astonished by the vision, but no one understood it.
Thats the frame work from Chapter 8. Up to the Roman empire.

Next Gabriel comes again and says.

the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering. [sup]22[/sup] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. [sup]23[/sup] At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

All I can say is, understand, understand, understand, understand.
Know therefore and understand, <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<the 5th and last understand
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Its all about Jesus my friend

May the Lord be with you.
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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Any one that teaches the 70th week is yet to come is missing the message.
I'll echo the preachers I have heard threw the years, ---------God stopped the clock for Israel after the 69th week. Were still wanting for it to be fulfilled.
Gabriel is told, make this man understand the vision, the word understand is repeated four more times. Gabriel says, “Understand, son of man" Then he perfectly explains the Mead Persians, then the single horn, Alexander the Great, and at his death his 4 generals divided the empire . Right up to the Romans....
[sup]
[/sup]

Well, if we're going to get off of Christ's seven signs of Matt.24 and instead into Daniel, here's what Dan.7 teaches that is given prior to Dan.8.


Dan 7:2-27
2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.
3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.

The "lion" with eagle's wings was Babylon; the "bear" was Medo-Persia; the "leopard" was Macedonia under Alexander.

I agree, the "four heads" of Grecia are those that split into four kingdoms after Alexander's death. Dan.8:8 & 8:22 defines them.

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Naturally, one would assume that 4th beast was about pagan Rome, the "legs of iron" back in Dan.2. However, there's actually a 5th beast covered back in Dan.2, the one of the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay. We're even told a "stone" (Christ) will smite that beast upon its feet of ten toes, and ALL the pieces of the statue image, TOGETHER, will come falling down at the same time; the gold, the silver, the brass, the iron, and the clay. There is a 5th beast, which is the final one of our near future, which Christ will destroy at His return to setup His eternal Kingdom on this earth.

And in Dan.2 we're shown when the "stone" (Christ) smites the last beast upon its feet of ten toes, God's everlasting Kingdom will be setup, pointing to Christ's second coming and the end of this world (which is still future to us). Is that same Message here in Dan.7? Let's find out.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Now we have 11 horns total, the ten horns, and then another "little horn" that comes up among the ten.

9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, Whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head like the pure wool: His throne was like the fiery flame, and His wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before Him: thousand thousands ministered unto Him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

What timing is that picture of God's judgment there, with the books being opened? That's past Christ's thousand years reign of our future. Which beast is it that is slain and given to burning flame? That's about the son of perdition, Apollyon, the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit, the king of Rev.9 which is the angel of the bottomless pit. It's the devil himself, the dragon that is cast into the lake of fire. If that was about historical pagan Rome only, then what's that future post-milennium event doing there? Just as God uses the king of Babylon and king of Assyria, and Pharaoh as types for Satan as a false king, these events also stand as patterns for the final 5th beast at the end of this present world. It is not just about historical Rome.

12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before Him.
14 And there was given Him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve Him: His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

Again, an end of days time marker is given, with Christ's return and His Kingdom everlasting being established upon the earth, a literal kingdom upon the earth like Zech.14:16 forward shows with all nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship the King (Jesus Christ). That did not happen with the historical destruction of the Roman empire. It still has not happenned yet today. Christ has not returned to this earth yet. And He will return bodily as God's Word declares it. All nations will be subdued under Him when He returns, not just a few.

If one catches that there's to be 5 beast kingdoms total from Dan.2 (gold, silver, brass, iron, clay), they should also understand how this 4th beast is symbolic of historical pagan Rome (legs of iron), and as a final 5th beast kingdom of feet with ten toes of part iron and part clay. It is a dual prophecy, Rome as a pattern, and then a final beast kingdom as the fulfillment in our near future.

15 I Daniel was grieved in my spirit in the midst of my body, and the visions of my head troubled me.
16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
18 But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Because only four kings are mentioned here, it's a popular notion to think the old Roman empire is going to be revived in the end of days when Christ returns (our days). Since they can only see the RCC established in today's Rome, they focus on it instead of globalist groups like the Club of Rome which also operates out of Rome. That's the idea of a revived beast that sufferred a deadly wound, but globalist groups like the Club of Rome industrialists are NOT the only group on earth like it. Others like it also exist in Brussels, and Lyons, and in New York, and in the Far East, and in the middleast, and even in England.

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

There it is again, our Lord's Message that when that beast manifests, it will have power over the other beasts, stamping them with its feet, the feet of ten toes of part iron and part clay (a 5th beast). It's that final beast that will make war against the saints especially in the very last days of this present world. For it's at the end of today's world when Christ's Kingdom will come on earth de facto, over all nations. That's also when judgment will be given to the saints, and when WE will possess the kingdom on this earth. That beast kingdom involves the beast of Rev.17 that ascends out of the bottomless pit to make war against the saints. It's the "another beast" of Rev.13, the "dragon" of Rev.12.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

That final beast will devour the whole earth, all nations, which no beast kingdom of history has yet done. All nations will be subdued under its power, which is what today's "one world government" strategy is about. Is that about the RCC? Of course not. Rev.13 reveals how all the world will wonder after the final beast, and bow to the abomination image the beast king will setup for all on earth to worship. That means over deceived Jews, Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc., literally a one-world religion to encompass all that is worshipped. We have been seeing that type of religous movement on earth is our days, an inter-faith joining. Many deceived Christian Churches today are inviting representatives from other religions into their Churches that give demonstrations of pagan belief. Those deceived Churches are being taught to join hands with other religions. We saw this also right after 9/11 when reps from different religions took turns to pray publically. It was broadcasted nationally.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, Whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.
(KJV)

That is about the final beast kingdom on earth when Christ returns. It's about the 7th trumpet event when all the kingdoms of this world become those of God and His Christ. The dominions upon this earth are going to be taken over by Christ Himself when He returns. Those ten kings, and that little horn are to manifest in the days of Christ's return, which is what Revelation 17 reveals.

Here's that Message in Daniel 2...

Dan 2:32-35
32 This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
(KJV)

We're shown 5 separate pieces to the statue in Dan.2, not four. That statue image is to be smitten upon its feet of mixed iron and clay, and then ALL the pieces TOGETHER fall and are no more. Then the "stone" (Christ) that smote the image becomes a great mountain filling the whole earth (Christ's coming Kingdom upon this earth). That's pointing to a final beast kingdom upon this earth which will include all the previous beasts that came before it, i.e., Babylon, Medo-Persia, Macedonia, and Rome. It will also include the Pacific regions, Asia, Europe, the middleast, and the Americas, the whole... earth.

The correct pattern for understanding the beasts has been given in Dan.2 all along. We simply have to pay attention to it, and remember it when continuing study in the rest of the Book of Daniel.

And just to make the interpretation sure, our Lord gave that Message twice in Dan.2...

Dan 2:41-45
41 And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
(KJV)

Only in "the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever." That did not happen at Christ's first coming, nor has it happened yet to this day.


 

242006

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All I can say is, understand, understand, understand, understand.
Know therefore and understand, <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<the 5th and last understand
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Its all about Jesus my friend

It is so obvious that your 'understanding' is not the same as Daniel's. Daniel had already rec'd endtime visions in Chapters 2 [the great image], 7 [little horn], and 8 [2300 days]. Now, you argue that the 70th week ended 40 A.D. [assuming a crucifixion year of 33 A.D.], without explanation as to what happened on that year to conclude the vision. Surely, Daniel understood it to be an endtime vision. Daniel's 'understanding' would be such irrespective of whether or not there was continuity in the weeks or a gap between the 69th and 70th weeks.

Naturally, a Bible student should have 'understanding' as to why Gabriel provided a breakdown in the 70 weeks in the first place. Clearly, the breakdown was given to signify that certain events within the vision concluded each milestone breakdown. Where your interpretation fails [again] is to signify what occurrence took place 7 years after the crucifixion to conclude the 70th week. In fact, in a prior post, you indicated that the prophecies therein the vision actually continue on beyond the 70th week, therein making God and Gabriel liars for stating there was sum total 70 weeks.

Hence, to understand the Daniel 9 vision, despite the poor English translation, one simply has to know what events mark the end of each breakdown of the 70 weeks. So, start with the first breakdown of 7 weeks and 62 weeks.






Dan 9:25​
Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


If a Bible student simply reads it for what it states, it is not difficult to understand. There are two things marking the end of the 7 and 62 weeks. One is the "Messiah the Prince" and the other is the restoration of Jerusalem with the rebuilding of the Temple.

To know what marks the end of the 69th week, one simply has to read on.

<B>

Dan 9:26</B>​
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off

The wording 'cut off' means, by implication, 'to destroy [flesh-wise]'. Gabriel is informing Daniel that the Messiah will be crucified, which marks the end of the 69th week.

The event to mark the end of the 70th week is also given.


Dan 9:27 . . . until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The phrase 'until the consummation' means 'unto a full end'. Has there been a 'full end' to the temple mount and Israel [the twelve tribes]?? Of course not! The temple mount is currently polluted with the Islamic mosque. Likewise, the twelve tribes are alive and well and dispersed throughout the world.

The other condition marking the end of the 70th week is that 'determined shall be poured upon the desolate'. The phrase 'shall be poured upon' means 'shall come pouring upon'. The word 'poured' is referring to nothing other than the pouring of the 7 vials in Rev. 16, which again lets the Bible student know that it is an endtime event. Now, the object of the pouring is identifed to be the 'desolate'. The word 'desolate', properly rendered, means 'desolator' [See Dan. 12:11]. The one that desolates Israelites from God's saving grace is none other than Satan. What vial is poured upon Satan?? Of course, it is the 7th and final vial [Rev. 16:17-21]. The 7th vial ends Satan's reign on earth.

Your interpretation fails miserably! Assuming a crucifixion date of 33 AD, you would have to demonstrate that all Israelites were killed, along with Satan's reign [one world order] started and terminated, by 40 A.D. Of course, a Bible student knows how gross your error is. Such events do not transpire until the end of this flesh dispensation of time.

With all the proof of your error having been presented, sum total, by all that have attempted to edify you, certainly, it is time for you to acknowledge your error and accept the Truth -- there is a gap in time [church age] between the 69th and 70th weeks.
 

bud02

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What timing is that picture of God's judgment there, with the books being opened? That's past Christ's thousand years reign of our future. Which beast is it that is slain and given to burning flame? That's about the son of perdition, Apollyon, the beast that ascends up from the bottomless pit, the king of Rev.9 which is the angel of the bottomless pit. It's the devil himself, the dragon that is cast into the lake of fire. If that was about historical pagan Rome only, then what's that future post-milennium event doing there? Just as God uses the king of Babylon and king of Assyria, and Pharaoh as types for Satan as a false king, these events also stand as patterns for the final 5th beast at the end of this present world. It is not just about historical Rome.

If you look chapter 8 and 9 are a closer look at the scriptures you are presenting. i dont disagree with much of what you have said.
What I di disagree with is all the prophesy's you bring forward do include the finial judgment. Another point is O believe that 8 and 9 are slightly different and important. Is the God Himself command Gabriel to make Him understand this vision. As I have been saying its all About Jesus, and the destruction of Temple. It does not disagree with the expanded prophesy's, It identifys the exact time of the Messiah, and what He would accomplish. Which is something that is absent from all the prophesy you mentioned, a detailed view of the time of the Messiah. That is why God and Gabriel say UNDERSTAND. The forth time it is mentioned is right before the 70 weeks prophesy.
[sup]23[/sup] At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision: The finial understand is identifying exactly when the Messiah will come. The first part of the vision in chapter 8 spans beyond the 70 weeks, but clearly points to the time of the uprising of Rome. The 70 weeks covers the time just after the Mead Persian over throw of Babylon, the freeing of the Jews from their 70 years of captivity. Right on threw to the 4 "horns" generals of Alexander, to the birth of Rome. Here we get the description of this rising power.

[sup]23[/sup] “ And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
[sup]24[/sup] His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[sup][c][/sup]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.[sup][d][/sup]
[sup]26[/sup] “ And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;
Therefore seal up the vision,
For it refers to many days in the future.

Danial now faints.
The next thing we see weeks later, concerning this vision is Gabriel returning to provide the details, to fulfills Gods command to make this man understand.
This sets the time period, the transition point from the 4 horns to the Romans. That I posted above is a description of the Roman beast. Not a moving forward in time. Verse 23 - 26 are identifiers. It is clear we are not speaking of the second advent. We are looking at Christ first coming, and that is made even more clear in the 70 weeks. To summarize it 28 sets the time and 29 zooms in, IN GREAT DETAIL. Danial 9-27 is not the AC its Jesus Christ. The very out line given in the first verse give no indication its about the AC.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.

These are all attributes of God making the provision for salvation.
This is not a prophesy about a beast. But because the beast is active threw out this last week.
There is mention of him. But he is not the focus. And of course he exists beyond the 70 week mark.
It never says the 70 week is cut of, it says Messiah is cut off.

I hate to have to resort to common sense but sometimes it's necessary.
Just how do you cut of a Messiah off? Now were talking all the power of the God Head bestowed on is man. Just how do you do that, the answer is you don't He does, just as He was asked by the Father to lay down His life from many. His life, in the flesh of humanity was cut off.

Next question is Messiah cut off today? or at anytime after His resurrection? The answer is no. If you apply the word cut off to Messiah "in the full meaning" you in reality are saying He is in active until His second coming. You effectively displace all of Him to a future event.

I'll repeat this one more time it says the Messiah shall be cut off but not for Himself. He is the Alpha and Omega, how do you cut Him off?
'Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?
'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?

MESSIAH CUT OFF

Now please quit cutting Him off from the greatest Prophesy in the Bible
9-
[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
 

242006

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Jun 9, 2010
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MESSIAH CUT OFF

Now please quit cutting Him off from the greatest Prophesy in the Bible
9-
[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

Who is the 'he' spoken of in 9:27??



Dan 9:26​
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Every modern English rendering identifies the difference between "the prince" of 9:26 [non-capitalized 'p'] and "Messiah the Prince" [capitalized 'P'] in 9:25. Surely, if Gabriel intended "the people of the prince" to mean 'the people of Messiah', Gabriel could have stated so. The fact that Gabriel didn't use the connotation "Messiah" in this phrase alerts us to the fact that this "prince" is not 'Messiah the Prince'. The 'prince' spoken of in 9:26 is not the Messiah.

Accordingly, when one reads 9:27, the "he" spoken of is "the prince" -- not "Messiah". This "prince" is Satan.
 

veteran

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Aug 6, 2010
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If you look chapter 8 and 9 are a closer look at the scriptures you are presenting. i dont disagree with much of what you have said.
What I di disagree with is all the prophesy's you bring forward do include the finial judgment. Another point is O believe that 8 and 9 are slightly different and important. Is the God Himself command Gabriel to make Him understand this vision. As I have been saying its all About Jesus, and the destruction of Temple. It does not disagree with the expanded prophesy's, It identifys the exact time of the Messiah, and what He would accomplish. Which is something that is absent from all the prophesy you mentioned, a detailed view of the time of the Messiah. That is why God and Gabriel say UNDERSTAND. The forth time it is mentioned is right before the 70 weeks prophesy.

The whole point of this thread was about the 70th "one week" and the events given in the Dan.9:27 verse about that specific "one week". The completed fufillment of the 70 weeks depends upon the final events in the visions Daniel was given, and what are those final events? The time that our Lord Jesus would be "cut off" at His first coming to die on the cross? No. The final events are about God bringing an end to the final beast kingdom on earth with Christ's second coming, for that's what Dan.2; 7 & 8 are showing with the everlasting Kingdom that is to be setup on earth with the saints possessing it.

Like watchman showed you, the periods up to and including the 69 weeks was about the command to rebuild the temple and the wall after Judah's 70 years captivity, and then up to the time of Christ's first coming to the point of His crucifixion when He was "cut off". That fulfilled only 69 weeks of the prophecy, which is why the Dan.9:27 verse is about events past... Christ's crucifixion.

So that's why I haven't spoken of our Lord's time of crucifixion back in the Dan.9:26 verse. Others here like watchman has covered that point already.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

That phrase in bold ended the 69th week (the 7 weeks of verse 25 included) with Christ's crucifixion upon the cross, for that's the idea of His being "cut off" (Isa.53:8).

The "prince" mentioned after that is not our Lord Jesus. That people of the prince is about the Roman 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem, but ALSO about the antichrist that is to appear in Jerusalem in final in the days when Christ's SECOND coming happens. It's just like the Dan.7 pattern of the 4th beast as a dual description of historical Rome ("legs of iron"), but used again to point to the very end of this world with a final 5th beast kingdom ("feet of part of iron and part of clay").

It's that "prince" of verse 26 that is picked up in verse 27 with the "he" that confirms a covenant (league of Dan.11). That's not our Lord Jesus, but the false one our Lord Jesus warned that would come. The Roman destruction of the temple and Jerusalem served as a 'blueprint' for that "prince", but as a pattern only for a final fulfillment which is yet to come. That's WHY 70 A.D. cannot show all the signs coming to pass in 70 A.D., and why 70 A.D. was only a pattern for a yet future time when every one of the signs will be fulfilled in the time of a final antichrist (5th beast working, the time when Christ's second coming will happen, in our near future).

It's like there's a sheet of tracing paper with the Roman 70 A.D. pattern on top, but the real and final fulfillment by a final antichrist at the end of this world underneath. Peel off the top tracing paper layer (70 A.D. events) and that's where we've been since 70 A.D., the bottom layer prophecy only to be fulfilled immediately prior to Christ's second coming to end this present world.




 

bud02

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Look let me just cut threw the chase.
You Christina and watchman ect all believe this. based on your interpretation of 9-27

1) that there is a 7 year trib based on the 70th week being yet future.
2) there must be a new temple.
3) The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel.

All three of these beliefs have no scripture evidence any where to support them.
Its all presumed, based on your reading.
Not only can you NOT produce scriptural evidence to support it it clearly does not mention a 3rd temple in Danial, the Anti christ, or a 7 year tribulation.

Point 1) No where will you find a 7 year tribulation mentioned. The closest that you can possibly get is the 2 references in Rev to the two 1260 day periods of time.
A day in prophesy = a year see Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6, you can also see from the command to restore Jerusalem in this prophesy in 9-25 that applying a day for a day never works, it a day = a year. Now you show me from scripture that you are to interpret the 1260 days in Rev as literal days and not years. Instead of ignoring the standard set by God and used in every other prophesy.

Point 2) No biblical evedence of a 3rd temple. Don't presume to use 2 Th 2:4 to support a new temple. The word used in Greek is the same word both Paul and Jesus use when referring to tent of our flesh. If Paul were refering to a building he would have used the Greek word he and Jesus used when referring to the temple building, but he didn't.

Point 3) "The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel". Show me a verse that supports this fairy tail.

It all hocus pocus, to put it mildly, you first have to ignore the standard day = year prophesy. Next you have to PRESUME a 3rd temple is built to provide the foundation for the anti christ to bring an end to sacrifice and offering, and make a covenant with Israel . Which you can not find in scripture. This is the very foundation of 7 year tribulation; antichrist covenant; new 3rd temple. And not a shred of scripture to support it.

I have challenged you to prove me wrong with scripture.
With out your Danial 9-27 anti christ
,your whole 7 year trib, new temple covenant with the anti christ just disapear from scripture.

Who is the 'he' spoken of in 9:27??

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Every modern English rendering identifies the difference between "the prince" of 9:26 [non-capitalized 'p'] and "Messiah the Prince" [capitalized 'P'] in 9:25. Surely, if Gabriel intended "the people of the prince" to mean 'the people of Messiah', Gabriel could have stated so. The fact that Gabriel didn't use the connotation "Messiah" in this phrase alerts us to the fact that this "prince" is not 'Messiah the Prince'. The 'prince' spoken of in 9:26 is not the Messiah.

Accordingly, when one reads 9:27, the "he" spoken of is "the prince" -- not "Messiah". This "prince" is Satan.

Then you won't have any trouble at all producing scriptural evidence

[sup]
[/sup]
 

242006

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Look let me just cut threw the chase.
You Christina and watchman ect all believe this. based on your interpretation of 9-27

1) that there is a 7 year trib based on the 70th week being yet future.
2) there must be a new temple.
3) The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel.


All three of these beliefs have no scripture evidence any where to support them.
Its all presumed, based on your reading.
Not only can you NOT produce scriptural evidence to support it it clearly does not mention a 3rd temple in Danial, the Anti christ, or a 7 year tribulation.

Point 1) No where will you find a 7 year tribulation mentioned. The closest that you can possibly get is the 2 references in Rev to the two 1260 day periods of time.
A day in prophesy = a year see Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6, you can also see from the command to restore Jerusalem in this prophesy in 9-25 that applying a day for a day never works, it a day = a year. Now you show me from scripture that you are to interpret the 1260 days in Rev as literal days and not years. Instead of ignoring the standard set by God and used in every other prophesy.

Point 2) No biblical evedence of a 3rd temple. Don't presume to use 2 Th 2:4 to support a new temple. The word used in Greek is the same word both Paul and Jesus use when referring to tent of our flesh. If Paul were refering to a building he would have used the Greek word he and Jesus used when referring to the temple building, but he didn't.

Point 3) "The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel". Show me a verse that supports this fairy tail.

It all hocus pocus, to put it mildly, you first have to ignore the standard day = year prophesy. Next you have to PRESUME a 3rd temple is built to provide the foundation for the anti christ to bring an end to sacrifice and offering, and make a covenant with Israel . Which you can not find in scripture. This is the very foundation of 7 year tribulation; antichrist covenant; new 3rd temple. And not a shred of scripture to support it.

I have challenged you to prove me wrong with scripture.
With out your Danial 9-27 anti christ
,your whole 7 year trib, new temple covenant with the anti christ just disapear from scripture.



Then you won't have any trouble at all producing scriptural evidence [sup]
[/sup]

You are no different than the Catholics, whom you deride! When someone informs a Catholic that their interpretation of Mat. 16:18 is incorrect, the Catholic does the ostrich. They won't allow themselves to hear or see any Truth thereafter. As long as the end result would mean that the RCC is not "the rock", the Catholic cannot engage in any meaninful Bible discourse. Their entire religion is based upon their interpretation of Mat. 16:18.

Likewise, you have done the ostrich with respect to Dan. 9:24-27. I, for one, have never stated that "2) there must be a new temple" and "3) the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel". Yet, you have the audacity to claim such. That begs the question as to what motivates you to be such a liar?? The answer is quite obvious -- you preceive that you have a superior argument when those, whom you label as 'futurists', claim 2) and 3). You cannot allow yourself to hear or see any Truth to prove you wrong -- your entire religion is based upon your false interpretation thereof.

Of course, you are losing the debate in miserable fashion thus far. So, you have to interject lies in effort to obtain a superior position again. SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LIES!

*************************************************

With respect to 1), I have already provided you the proof that the 70th week is future because the events marking the end thereof have not occurred yet, nor will they end until the end of this flesh dispensation of time [at Christ's return]. Please go back a few post [2 of mine] to see the details.

With respect to your 1260 days argument being years, see Rev. 11:3, 9, and 11. It is quite obvious that a defined number associated with the word 'days' in John's writing of the Book of Revelation means 24-hour days -- not years.

With respect to your want of further proof of Satan being the 'prince' of Dan. 9:26, I already provided you the proof. It is the language therein. Gabriel had no problem using the terminology 'Messiah the Prince' in 9:25 and 'Messiah' again in 9:26. If Gabriel was speaking of Messiah's 'people', he would have stated 'the people of Messiah the Prince'. Instead, he stated "the people of the prince", which informs us that said 'prince' was not Messiah.

In 9:27, we learn what this other 'prince' does -- overspreading of abominations which make it desolate. Such acts are the same as set forth in Rev. for Satan. See Rev. 12 and 13.
 

veteran

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Look let me just cut threw the chase.
You Christina and watchman ect all believe this. based on your interpretation of 9-27

1) that there is a 7 year trib based on the 70th week being yet future.
2) there must be a new temple.
3) The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel.

All three of these beliefs have no scripture evidence any where to support them.
Its all presumed, based on your reading.
Not only can you NOT produce scriptural evidence to support it it clearly does not mention a 3rd temple in Danial, the Anti christ, or a 7 year tribulation.

Plenty of Scripture evidence has been given, you'd just rather believe the false traditions of men instead.


No where will you find a 7 year tribulation mentioned. The closest that you can possibly get is the 2 references in Rev to the two 1260 day periods of time.
A day in prophesy = a year see Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6, you can also see from the command to restore Jerusalem in this prophesy in 9-25 that applying a day for a day never works, it a day = a year. Now you show me from scripture that you are to interpret the 1260 days in Rev as literal days and not years. Instead of ignoring the standard set by God and used in every other prophesy.

It would be ignorant to think the final "one week" of Dan.9:27 is not about a 7 year period, especially since the 70 weeks prophecy is given with a week=7 years. And like watchman said, there's nothing in Rev. to show the 1260 days means years. Even when Dan.7:25 and Dan.12:7 mentions "a time, times, and an half" it is still about a literal period of 1260 days or 3.5 years. Trying to apply all prophesy with a day=year is confusion. ONLY Scripture that says to use a day=year reckoning is valid, like in Ezekiel.


No biblical evedence of a 3rd temple. Don't presume to use 2 Th 2:4 to support a new temple. The word used in Greek is the same word both Paul and Jesus use when referring to tent of our flesh. If Paul were refering to a building he would have used the Greek word he and Jesus used when referring to the temple building, but he didn't.

Watchman and I may disagree on that point. But I say there is enough Biblical evidence another temple will be built at the very end of this world.

Rev 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
(KJV)

Those events are given on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. That temple revealed there is NOT in Heaven. It's on the earth, for that's how its outer court is able to be tread under foot for 42 months (1260 days) by the Gentiles. That's the temple the unbelieving Jews in Jerusalem are getting ready to build in our times. Those who worship therein is pointing to orthodox Jews, and the Gentiles without which tread it for 42 months are Satan's host, for that 42 months period is a time marker for the dragon working in Rev.13. And that's not about to happen in a temple in Heaven which cannot be profaned nor tread upon.

Also in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, the false one Apostle Paul warned of that would come to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God, is not about the spiritual Temple idea, simply because the spiritual Temple can NEVER be profaned by a false one, since Christ, His Apostles, and the prophets are its foundation! Only a child of the devil would think that the spiritual Temple in Heaven could be corrupted. They can't touch it. But another physical temple in Jerusalem, well, that's another thing, and is what Paul was pointing to with the coming antichrist/false messiah.


"The anti christ makes a covenant with Israel". Show me a verse that supports this fairy tail.

It all hocus pocus, to put it mildly, you first have to ignore the standard day = year prophesy. Next you have to PRESUME a 3rd temple is built to provide the foundation for the anti christ to bring an end to sacrifice and offering, and make a covenant with Israel . Which you can not find in scripture. This is the very foundation of 7 year tribulation; antichrist covenant; new 3rd temple. And not a shred of scripture to support it.

I have challenged you to prove me wrong with scripture.
With out your Danial 9-27 anti christ
,your whole 7 year trib, new temple covenant with the anti christ just disapear from scripture.

That's exactly what the antichrist will do, for that's the "he" of Dan.9:27 and Dan.11 that will make a "league" and come to power with a "small people" (the tares). That will reinstitute animal sacrifices again in today's Jerusalem with a rebuilt temple, the one of Rev.11:1-2. And no marvel, for the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem have ALREADY been doing passover animal sacrifices for the past few years, just not upon the Temple Mount.

You've already been given mountains of Bible evidence for those events by several on this Forum. Simply throwing out attempted affirmations that we are wrong will not work. Everything you've thrown out that goes counter to Holy Writ has been refuted, more than once.
 

veteran

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Who is the 'he' spoken of in 9:27??



Dan 9:26​
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Every modern English rendering identifies the difference between "the prince" of 9:26 [non-capitalized 'p'] and "Messiah the Prince" [capitalized 'P'] in 9:25. Surely, if Gabriel intended "the people of the prince" to mean 'the people of Messiah', Gabriel could have stated so. The fact that Gabriel didn't use the connotation "Messiah" in this phrase alerts us to the fact that this "prince" is not 'Messiah the Prince'. The 'prince' spoken of in 9:26 is not the Messiah.

Accordingly, when one reads 9:27, the "he" spoken of is "the prince" -- not "Messiah". This "prince" is Satan.


Verry correct!!

More evidence for that "prince" label in the "people of the prince that shall come" being ultimately about Satan himself is given in the next Daniel 10 chapter. Dan.10 is a heavenly pattern chapter, with the "prince of Persia" label applied to Satan.

Dan 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
(KJV)

It's like a heavenly pattern for the beast kings exists with Satan behind the vail fulfilling each role as it comes. The "people of the prince" about him and his host also.


 

bud02

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You are no different than the Catholics, whom you deride! When someone informs a Catholic that their interpretation of Mat. 16:18 is incorrect, the Catholic does the ostrich. They won't allow themselves to hear or see any Truth thereafter. As long as the end result would mean that the RCC is not "the rock", the Catholic cannot engage in any meaninful Bible discourse. Their entire religion is based upon their interpretation of Mat. 16:18.

Likewise, you have done the ostrich with respect to Dan. 9:24-27. I, for one, have never stated that "2) there must be a new temple" and "3) the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel". Yet, you have the audacity to claim such. That begs the question as to what motivates you to be such a liar?? The answer is quite obvious -- you preceive that you have a superior argument when those, whom you label as 'futurists', claim 2) and 3). You cannot allow yourself to hear or see any Truth to prove you wrong -- your entire religion is based upon your false interpretation thereof.

Of course, you are losing the debate in miserable fashion thus far. So, you have to interject lies in effort to obtain a superior position again. SHAME ON YOU FOR YOUR LIES!

*************************************************
Thats right you have not said, there must be a new temple" and "3) the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel".
but with quotes like this what am I to think? you clearly identify Satan with he in 9-27. are you now saying he won't make a covenant?
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Every modern English rendering identifies the difference between "the prince" of 9:26 [non-capitalized 'p'] and "Messiah the Prince" [capitalized 'P'] in 9:25. Surely, if Gabriel intended "the people of the prince" to mean 'the people of Messiah', Gabriel could have stated so. The fact that Gabriel didn't use the connotation "Messiah" in this phrase alerts us to the fact that this "prince" is not 'Messiah the Prince'. The 'prince' spoken of in 9:26 is not the Messiah.

Accordingly, when one reads 9:27, the "he" spoken of is "the prince" -- not "Messiah". This "prince" is Satan.Accordingly, when one reads 9:27, the "he" spoken of is "the prince" -- not "Messiah". This "prince" is Satan.

Rather you are the one that is disingenuous. So how is it that Satan will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, without a temple?
How will he not, confirm the covenant with many for one week.
Nether you or veteran can properly quote what I say. You both continue to inject your opinion of what I said, rather than what I said. Your both very clever to never fully express your own interpretation of the verse. When you did slip and say that 9-27 he, is Satan you just committed to a belief. Its a well know fact that the 7 year trib the covenate satan makes with Israel and a new Temple are all founded on this verse 9-27 he, being Satan. So now lets here it, ether Satan makes the covenant, and the sacrifice and the oblations are ceased by him or not which is it. Right below is your quote. So tell me how this happens to prove me a liar. So far you have only said he is Satan in 9-27, please make me a liar

I, for one, have never stated that "2) there must be a new temple" and "3) the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel". Yet, you have the audacity to claim such. That begs the question as to what motivates you to be such a liar??



With respect to 1), I have already provided you the proof that the 70th week is future because the events marking the end thereof have not occurred yet, nor will they end until the end of this flesh dispensation of time [at Christ's return]. Please go back a few post [2 of mine] to see the details.

Heres where I believe the abomination took place. http://www.christian...dpost__p__89320
I

With respect to your 1260 days argument being years, see Rev. 11:3, 9, and 11. It is quite obvious that a defined number associated with the word 'days' in John's writing of the Book of Revelation means 24-hour days -- not years.

Its the same with every other prophesy in the bible a day = a year.
You use the day for a year right i Danial. 70 weeks is 490 days. Are you saying the rebuilding of Jerusalem happened a year and 4 months after the vision? Its amazing what you can deny to prove me wrong, then turn right around and use it yourself to prove a point. It is quite obvious, you cant produce an answer.

With respect to your want of further proof of Satan being the 'prince' of Dan. 9:26, I already provided you the proof. It is the language therein. Gabriel had no problem using the terminology 'Messiah the Prince' in 9:25 and 'Messiah' again in 9:26. If Gabriel was speaking of Messiah's 'people', he would have stated 'the people of Messiah the Prince'. Instead, he stated "the people of the prince", which informs us that said 'prince' was not Messiah.

I have explained it in detail several times. Again you falsely imply something I never said or indicated.

In 9:27, we learn what this other 'prince' does -- overspreading of abominations which make it desolate. Such acts are the same as set forth in Rev. for Satan. See Rev. 12 and 13.

And here you are again avoiding the relationship to he in 9-27, to the covenant and the sacrifices and jumping to "overspreading of abominations which make it desolate" . The only thing you are really good at is arguing without committing to anything.
By miss quoting your opponent, and not presenting your complete interpretation your little game, that you claim to be winning can go on forever.

Miss quoting and partial verses misapplied can be found in the Bible. The ones that come to mind are in Gen 3 and chapter 4 in LK and MT

perhaps your tactic in this thread?
[sup]25[/sup]And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
 

bud02

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The bottom line

Like I said, nether of you can find (1) a 3rd temple.
(2) a 7 year tribulation
or Satan as watchman calls him (3) making a covenant

ANY WHERE IN THE BIBLE
It is all assumed

And your game as I pointed out above is wearing me out.
I'll let the mocking birds have their tread back now.
Because I am confident watchman will not interpret what I asked.
And he will never produce the above 3 items.

You both believe Satan is he in 9-27 but you deny the (3) points in your interpretation.
And you will never explain it " your interpretation " if it involves one of the three points, its a game you play.
Tell us all about Satans covenant, the 7 year trib, and how Satan will cause the sacrifices to end. And where their found in the Bible.

In 9:27, we learn what this other 'prince' does -- overspreading of abominations which make it desolate. Such acts are the same as set forth in Rev. for Satan. See Rev. 12 and 13.

And here you are again avoiding the relationship to he in 9-27, to the covenant and the sacrifices and jumping to "overspreading of abominations which make it desolate" . The only thing you are really good at is arguing without committing to anything.
By miss quoting your opponent, and not presenting your complete interpretation your little game, that you claim to be winning can go on forever.

Buck-up and tell me what this other 'prince' does -- fill in your silent dashes.
 

veteran

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Daniel 10 is a chapter that reverts to events in Heaven. The angel that appeared to Daniel in a vision said this:

Dan 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(KJV)

Could a FLESH king of Persia withstand that angel in Heaven? No. So who's the angel speaking of with that "prince of the kingdom of Persia"? It's about the devil. That title of prince of Persia is being applied to Satan himself as a heavenly pattern connected to events that happen upon the earth.

Rev 12:4
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
(KJV)

Dan 8:9-11
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
(KJV)

Even the "little horn" of Dan.8 has a reference to Satan with that casting down of the stars idea. In Ezek.28 God also uses the idea of the flesh prince and king of Tyrus (rock) when referring to how Satan rebelled in wanting to be God. Revelation 9 describes him as a king over the locust army, as the angel of the bottomless pit.

Satan has many titles, and a prince is just one of them.

Dan 10:20-21
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.
(KJV)

That 21st verse reveals that it's the Archangel Michael that is withholding that "prince of Persia" (Satan). That's what apostle Paul was speaking of with the one that holdeth until he is revealed in his time (2 Thess.2:6-7).

It's about the following event that is in our near future...

Rev 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
(KJV)

In Rev.11 we're shown after God's two witnesses finish their 1260 days testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will kill them. That's the "another beast" of Rev.13:11 forward linked with the title of the "dragon", for there are two different beasts taught in Rev.13. The title of "dragon" in God's Word is ONLY a title for Satan himself.

The beast king of Rev.17:8 is also about that one who 'ascends out of the bottomless pit' and goes into perdition. Thats a link to the "son of perdition" title, which is another title for Satan. Christ even applied that "son of perdition" title to Judas since He said Judas was "a devil" (John 6:70-71).

The events of Rev.11:1 through 11:14 happen on the 6th Trumpet - Second Woe period, showing that it's that another beast (dragon) that ascends out of the bottomless pit to kill God's two witnesses. At the 7th Trumpet - Third Woe, ALL the kingdoms of this earth become those of God and His Christ.

In 2 Thess.2 apostle Paul connected the false one to come with Satan, for it has always been Satan that has wanted to sit in God's Place, and a Temple in Jerusalem upon Mount Zion has always represented God's Place on this earth. The orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem are getting ready to build a temple just for that coming event of Satan coveting God's Place on earth. They have the materials ready, have started up the old Sanhedrin, have been training priests, have the temple cloth dye, and already cornerstones cut (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).

All these endtime events are in preparation for the coming "great tribulation", and that "prince" (Satan), which is known also by many other names.

I think our Lord Jesus has been very good to us in revealing these coming events upon the earth, so that we have no excuse in not knowing what prophetic times we're in today. Of course the enemies of Christ seek to mask and hide this revealing of Satan as that "another beast" of Rev.13 that sets up the beast image, and claim the "son of perdition", "dragon", "prince", "angel of the bottomless pit", is someone else other than Satan himself being cast down to our earthly dimension in the near future to start the great tribulation. The worst part of that working is how Christ's enemies have duped many of our own brethren away from that revealing our Lord Jesus gave us in His Word. Yet God has ordained blindness upon some for these coming events, and their spiritual eyes and ears have been closed, for whatever reason, God knows.
 

bud02

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In 2 Thess.2 apostle Paul connected the false one to come with Satan, for it has always been Satan that has wanted to sit in God's Place, and a Temple in Jerusalem upon Mount Zion has always represented God's Place on this earth. The orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem are getting ready to build a temple just for that coming event of Satan coveting God's Place on earth. They have the materials ready, have started up the old Sanhedrin, have been training priests, have the temple cloth dye, and already cornerstones cut (see Land of Israel and Temple Mount Faithful website).

All these endtime events are in preparation for the coming "great tribulation", and that "prince" (Satan), which is known also by many other names.

I think our Lord Jesus has been very good to us in revealing these coming events upon the earth, so that we have no excuse in not knowing what prophetic times we're in today. Of course the enemies of Christ seek to mask and hide this revealing of Satan as that "another beast" of Rev.13 that sets up the beast image, and claim the "son of perdition", "dragon", "prince", "angel of the bottomless pit", is someone else other than Satan himself being cast down to our earthly dimension in the near future to start the great tribulation. The worst part of that working is how Christ's enemies have duped many of our own brethren away from that revealing our Lord Jesus gave us in His Word. Yet God has ordained blindness upon some for these coming events, and their spiritual eyes and ears have been closed, for whatever reason, God knows.

Well you have not provided a verse indicating Satan making a covenant in all your references to him.
You also haven't shown why in Rev that you ignore the day = year definition of time used in Danial, and outlined in Numbers 14-34 and Ezekiel 4:6,
Your indication of Paul writing that, "Satan that has wanted to sit in God's Place", In 2 Thes Has problems when it comes to a temple building.

2 Thes 2:[sup]3[/sup] Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[sup][b][/sup] is revealed, the son of perdition, [sup]4[/sup] who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

The word used above is, 3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

Mat 21:[sup]12[/sup] Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. [sup]13[/sup] And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.

The word used above here is, 2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.

[sup]2cor:[/sup][sup]15[/sup] And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? [sup]16[/sup] And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:


“ I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

In the above verse you guest it, its 3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

[sup]5[/sup] Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, [sup]6[/sup] and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:

2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place,

[sup]John 2:19[/sup] Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
[sup]20[/sup] Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
[sup]21[/sup] But He was speaking of the temple of His body.

As you guested it ..........3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.

So it would appear that the TEMPLE in 2 thes is not a building, but a temple of flesh. So also goes the need of a 3rd temple that is not spoken of in Danial 9:27, but is presumed to be, because of the necessity of your translation, that 9:27 is AC and not Jesus Christ. There is no indication of a 3rd temple in scripture. The temple in Rev is the heavenly temple. You don't even have to use the Greek definition to see thar Paul is not speaking about a building "temple" all you have to do is compare the word used threw the scriptures.

2411.
hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place,............................................... is used to describe a building.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple............................... used to describe our flesh.

If Paul had used the word "hieron" then yes I would agree that new 3rd temple is spoken of.
But he didn't and that leaves you and your interpretation without a leg to stand on.

The worst part of that working is how Christ's enemies have duped many of our own brethren away from that revealing our Lord Jesus gave us in His Word. Yet God has ordained blindness upon some for these coming events, and their spiritual eyes and ears have been closed, for whatever reason, God knows.

So who is it that is duping who? You have no scriptural support for your interpretation.
No covenant between Satan and the Jews "Israel" can be found.
No reference to a new Temple building can be found.
No explanation for the use of a day for a year in prophesy. Its used in every other prophesy in the bible, but you DO NOT use it in Revelation. WHY?
No 7 year tribulation can be found in scripture.

Conclusion from the comparing of scripture to your interpretation of the 70th week Dan 9-27 being the Anti-Christ, in some future 7 year event.
ZERO evidence, Its the bait on the hook once you swallow it your hooked, it affects your entire understanding of the NT. I believe you used the word duped.

My post on the proper interpretation.
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/12458-daniels-70th-week-warnings/page__view__findpost__p__89105
 

242006

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Thats right you have not said, there must be a new temple" and "3) the antichrist makes a covenant with Israel".
but with quotes like this what am I to think? you clearly identify Satan with he in 9-27. are you now saying he won't make a covenant?

I have hinted at this before -- much of this prophecy [9:24-27] is mistranslated. The so-called 'covenant' is not a covenant at all -- nor is it with Israel. Of course, logic dictates that Satan would not be reaching agreement with the remnant of Israel [God's elect] in the endtime. Let's look at 9:27.

<B>

Dan 9:27</B>​
And he shall confirm[sup]H1396 the covenantH1285 with manyH7227 for oneH259 week:H7620

[/sup]First, the word 'many' -

<B>

H7227

</B>
rab

By contraction from​
H7231; abundant (in quantity, size, age, number, rank, quality): - (in) abound (-undance, -ant, -antly), captain, elder, enough, exceedingly, full, great (-ly, man, one), increase, long (enough, [time]), (do, have) many (-ifold, things, a time), ([ship-]) master, mighty, more, (too, very) much, multiply (-tude), officer, often [-times], plenteous, populous, prince, process [of time], suffice (-ient).

Nothing therein infers or locks these people into being of Israel -- then or in the endtime. In fact, since the word 'Israel' or wording 'remnant of Israel' is not used here, one can infer it is those who oppose God and Christ.

Next, the word 'confirm' -

<B>

H1396</B>​


gaw-bar'

A primitive root; to be strong; by implication to prevail, act insolently: - exceed, confirm, be great, be mighty, prevail, put to more [strength], strengthen, be stronger, be valiant.

Certainly, nothing therein in the meaning of this word affixes it to mean 'confirm' alone. It has been rendered 'strengthen' elsewhere.

Next, the word 'covenant' -

<B>

H1285

</B>
[sup]
ber-eeth'

From​
H1262 (in the sense of cutting (like H1254)); a compact (because made by passing between pieces of flesh): - confederacy, [con-]feder[-ate], covenant, league.

[/sup]It only means a covenant when used in an agreement by passing pieces of flesh. Certainly, flesh passing is not the context of this scripture. A better rendering would be either 'confederacy' or 'league'.

Hence, a proper rendering would be -


<B>

Dan 9:27</B>​
And he shall strengthen the confederacy with multitudes for one week:

This rendering fits nicely with the endtime prophecies of Eze. 37.

Rather you are the one that is disingenuous. So how is it that Satan will cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, without a temple?

I already addressed this in a prior post. There is nothing in the etymology of the words 'sacrifice' and 'oblation' which lock them into OT animal sacrifice and rituals. In Daniel 12, God refers to such practice as the "daily". So, when we read 'sacrifice' and 'oblation' here, one can logically deduce it is something else. In my prior post, I showed how these words could equally mean the tithes and gifts given to our Christian churches today.

As to 'how' Satan causes the tithes and gifts to cease in the endtime, that is very easy to answer. See Rev. 12:9. Satan deceives all Christians, except God's elect, into believing that he is Christ. He will either tell them to stop with tithes and gifts or to send all tithes and gifts to him [probably the latter -- see Eze. 28].

As Veteran stated, there is a disagreement in belief between us regarding the rebuilding of the 'temple'. I believe that the wording 'temple of God' in 2 Thes. 2:4 and Rev. 11:1 is a mistranslation. IMO, these scriptures are speaking of the Islamic mosque on the temple mount today. Jerusalem will be the headquarters [capital] of the new world order. Satan's cronies will use the temple mount, either the mosque itself or a structure built next to it on the mount, as a central building for the new world order in some fashion.

Nether you or veteran can properly quote what I say. You both continue to inject your opinion of what I said, rather than what I said.

I apologize if I have misquoted you in any manner. I take pride in my clarity.

Your both very clever to never fully express your own interpretation of the verse. When you did slip and say that 9-27 he, is Satan you just committed to a belief. Its a well know fact that the 7 year trib the covenate satan makes with Israel and a new Temple are all founded on this verse 9-27 he, being Satan. So now lets here it, ether Satan makes the covenant, and the sacrifice and the oblations are ceased by him or not which is it. Right below is your quote. So tell me how this happens to prove me a liar. So far you have only said he is Satan in 9-27, please make me a liar

See above. 'He' is Satan! I provided clarity in that the scripture is mistranslated. Eventhough your understanding is weak, I agree with the general point you are making. It makes no sense for Satan to make a covenant with Israel or the remnant thereof. Satan would make a covenant with those that follow him [non-christian nations]. Likewise, it is equally illogical for Christ to cause the endtime tithes and gifts to cease prior to His return. So, your position is equally as weak as Veteran's IMO.
 

bud02

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I have hinted at this before -- much of this prophecy [9:24-27] is mistranslated. The so-called 'covenant' is not a covenant at all -- nor is it with Israel. Of course, logic dictates that Satan would not be reaching agreement with the remnant of Israel [God's elect] in the endtime. Let's look at 9:27.

Its pretty clear you have no evidence to support what ever you believe it says, which at best is still unclear.

No covenant between Satan and the Jews "Israel" can be found.
No reference to a new Temple building can be found.
No explanation for the use of a day for a year in prophesy. Its used in every other prophesy in the bible, but you DO NOT use it in Revelation. WHY?
No 7 year tribulation can be found in scripture.

And yes you never said that you always say something else or nothing.

I have hinted at this before -- much of this prophecy [9:24-27] is mistranslated.
So what do you do, make it say what you want.

So lets here your translation and one other verse to support it.
I've done this repeatedly you have yet to even clearly define your interpretation with scriptural evidence.
With no evidence I can only presume its yours and yours alone.

It amazes me it what degree people like yourself will go to.
What are you going to do rewrite the bible.

Same word used here covenantH1285


Exodus 6- [sup]4[/sup]And I have also established my covenant H1285 with them, to give them the land of Canaan, the land of their pilgrimage, wherein they were strangers.

Ezek 16: 60 (AV) Nevertheless I will remember my covenant H1285 with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant H1285. (New Covenant(?) with Israel). v62 similar.

1 Chr 16: 17 And hath set up the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant H1285 , (To the person Jacob or Israel, not the people Israel, from the previous verse.) Ps 105:10 is the same verse within the same passage.

There you go 4 uses of the same word. Ezek even uses it to describe an everlasting covenant,
In my book 4 Aces beats your opinion every time.

So please spare everyone the nonsense of your interpretation of the word covenant.
And do as I do and show some scriptural evidence. I getting tired of your game and play on words.
 

bud02

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See above. 'He' is Satan! I provided clarity in that the scripture is mistranslated. Eventhough your understanding is weak, I agree with the general point you are making. It makes no sense for Satan to make a covenant with Israel or the remnant thereof. Satan would make a covenant with those that follow him [non-christian nations]. Likewise, it is equally illogical for Christ to cause the endtime tithes and gifts to cease prior to His return. So, your position is equally as weak as Veteran's IMO.

Sure you have provided nothing more than anyone else I have asked for evidence. Its your opinion.

On the second hand I say that he in 9-27 is Jesus. The second bold you make no reference to that, or the fact that I have repeatedly said the 70th week was completed by Jesus.
Beginning when He was baptized; in the middle of the week He was cut off, ending the sacrifices. This completed work was offered to the "Jewish nation and scattered "Jacob" alone until the vision of Peter and the calling of Paul thus ending the 70th week. 70 weeks were determinded of you "Danial" and your people.

So don't end the description of Veterans interpretation by mentioning mine.
You are very good at calling people wrong without offering your own opinion.
When you do its as week as it comes, perhaps thats why you dodge the issue. It easier to simply discredit others

Rev 12 [sup]9[/sup]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Thats a long way from covenant my friend. Hes been doing this since Eve.deceiveth does not a covenant make. To quote you " Eventhough your understanding is weak,"

See above post
 

242006

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Verry correct!!

More evidence for that "prince" label in the "people of the prince that shall come" being ultimately about Satan himself is given in the next Daniel 10 chapter. Dan.10 is a heavenly pattern chapter, with the "prince of Persia" label applied to Satan.

Dan 10:13
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
(KJV)

Dan 10:20
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
(KJV)

It's like a heavenly pattern for the beast kings exists with Satan behind the vail fulfilling each role as it comes. The "people of the prince" about him and his host also.

Thank you. Undoubtedly, the term 'prince', without an identifier, leaves it up for debate as to whom Gabriel is speaking of.

In bud02's defense, the KJV translators thought that the 'prince' in 9:26 was speaking of Christ as well. From the 1611 KJV -


Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.

It was in later editions of the KJV that the correction was made to 'prince'.
 

242006

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Heres where I believe the abomination took place. <A class=bbc_url title="External link" href="http://www.christian...dpost__p__89320" rel="nofollow external">http://www.christian...dpost__p__89320

In that post, you did nothing but disprove your own position.

Mat 24:15​
When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

It could not be any easier than this to understand! The context of this scripture is a description of the events whick precede Christ's return [Mat. 24:3]. Paul addressed this same endtime occurrence.


2Th 2:3​
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.


Here, we see the connection to Christ's words in Mat. 24:15, which, in turn, links itself to Dan. 9:26-27, plus the identification of the entity involved with this action. Christ is not 'that man of sin' and the 'son of perdition'!! It is Satan!! See Eze. 28 for the proof. Without question or a shred of doubt, the 'prince' of Dan. 9:26, who is the 'he' of 9:27, is Satan. It is blasphemy for you to claim that the 'prince' and 'he' is Christ!

Its the same with every other prophesy in the bible a day = a year.
You use the day for a year right i Danial. 70 weeks is 490 days. Are you saying the rebuilding of Jerusalem happened a year and 4 months after the vision? Its amazing what you can deny to prove me wrong, then turn right around and use it yourself to prove a point. It is quite obvious, you cant produce an answer.

Apparently, you cannot read!! I already provided you the answer!




Rev 11:3​
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Unless you can prove that the two witnesses, dressed in sackcloth, are currently here and teaching for 1,260 YEARS, instead of days, you have absolutely no ground to stand upon.


And here you are again avoiding the relationship to he in 9-27, to the covenant and the sacrifices and jumping to "overspreading of abominations which make it desolate" . The only thing you are really good at is arguing without committing to anything.
By miss quoting your opponent, and not presenting your complete interpretation your little game, that you claim to be winning can go on forever.

I have already addressed 'the covenant and sacrifices' a few times. Try reading my posts for a change!!

I have also told you many times that the 'prince' of 9:26, which is the 'he' of 9:27, is SATAN!! How in the world can you say that I have not given you my interpretation??

Miss quoting and partial verses misapplied can be found in the Bible. The ones that come to mind are in Gen 3 and chapter 4 in LK and MT

Name one time that I have misquoted anything!! Where is your proof??

perhaps your tactic in this thread?
[sup]25[/sup]And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

I think that your tactic is "doing the ostrich" -- just like Catholics do when people inform them that Peter is not "this rock" in Mat. 16:18. If you were one of "the saints of the most High", you would not be profferring the wrong interpretation of Dan. 9:24-27, as you do now. In fact, if you were a Christian, you would have admitted your error long ago and thanked me for edifying you.
 

242006

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The bottom line

Like I said, nether of you can find (1) a 3rd temple.
(2) a 7 year tribulation
or Satan as watchman calls him (3) making a covenant

ANY WHERE IN THE BIBLE
It is all assumed

And your game as I pointed out above is wearing me out.
I'll let the mocking birds have their tread back now.
Because I am confident watchman will not interpret what I asked.
And he will never produce the above 3 items.

You both believe Satan is he in 9-27 but you deny the (3) points in your interpretation.
And you will never explain it " your interpretation " if it involves one of the three points, its a game you play.
Tell us all about Satans covenant, the 7 year trib, and how Satan will cause the sacrifices to end. And where their found in the Bible.



And here you are again avoiding the relationship to he in 9-27, to the covenant and the sacrifices and jumping to "overspreading of abominations which make it desolate" . The only thing you are really good at is arguing without committing to anything.
By miss quoting your opponent, and not presenting your complete interpretation your little game, that you claim to be winning can go on forever.

Buck-up and tell me what this other 'prince' does -- fill in your silent dashes.

Well, it is quite obvious to anyone viewing your discourse that the true "Bottom Line" is that you have no honor. You cannot even be honest about the information that I have provided. Shame on you!!

If you can stop with your childish and incredulous ranting long enough to make a coherent point or question, a person might be able to better understand what yet has not been answered.