Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

[bud02]

Their are studies throughout this board on the time between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, you need to read them. There is no reason to repost them here. Maybe start with this one: http://www.christian...es-bible-study/

C/P

The first earth age was inhabited by us, by our souls in a different form, there were no flesh human bodies then (animals yes). In that first earth age we all had spiritual bodies, in this earth age we have flesh bodies because we were created and formed from the dust of the earth. When God destroyed that first earth age, the souls, the spiritual bodies returned to the Father (God), just as we do when we die in this earth age. But spiritual bodies leave no organic remains. When we die today, only our organic remains (flesh and bone) remain to be buried. Our soul, our spiritual being or spiritual body so to speak, returns instantly to the Father whom gave it.

All Souls, all of us, were present in that first earth age but God does not allow us to retain knowledge of it. He place a veil between that age and this one so that none of us could recollect it. That may have something to do with the fact that Scientists tells us that we only use approximately 9% of our brains (exact percentage disputed).

I'm speech less but I would like to comment on this piece of information below thus, no need for the female form (gender)

Today we are children of men, born of women, but in Heaven (the third age) we shall be children of God, not born of any woman. We shall be "equal unto the angels" which means the same as the angels. Angels have no female gender, and neither shall we in the angel's realm, which is the realm of God, which is eternal; no death, no birth in heaven, thus, no need for the female form (gender). Today we are perishable, liable to die, going to die someday; flesh dies, spirit does not (unless God blots it out in the Lake of Fire after Judgment Day). That brings to mind the absurdity of the feminist's rendition of Almighty God as a female with breasts. The only female gods are the false nonexistent goddesses of pagan idolatry, I hope for the feminist's sake that God winks at their ignorance.

.

My question if I can go off topic for a moment. Is what do we do with Proverbs CH 8. It says She and as you can see in verse 23 . She is not an angle according to this definition you linked me to. So what or who is she?


23 I have been established from everlasting,


From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.

Can you give me a quick explanation to this, heres the link I followed from the one you gave me http://biblestudysite.com/begin.htm


[sup]1[/sup] Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
[sup]2[/sup] She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
[sup]3[/sup] She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
[sup]4[/sup] “ To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
[sup]5[/sup] O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
[sup]6[/sup] Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
[sup]7[/sup] For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
[sup]8[/sup] All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
[sup]9[/sup] They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
[sup]10[/sup] Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
[sup]11[/sup] For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
[sup]12[/sup] “ I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
[sup]13[/sup] The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
[sup]14[/sup] Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
[sup]15[/sup] By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
[sup]16[/sup] By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.[sup][a][/sup]
[sup]17[/sup] I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.
[sup]18[/sup] Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring riches and righteousness.
[sup]19[/sup] My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold,
And my revenue than choice silver.
[sup]20[/sup] I traverse the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
[sup]21[/sup] That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.
[sup]22[/sup] “ The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
[sup]23[/sup] I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
[sup]24[/sup] When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
[sup]25[/sup] Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
[sup]26[/sup] While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
[sup]27[/sup] When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
[sup]28[/sup] When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
[sup]29[/sup] When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
[sup]30[/sup] Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;[sup][b][/sup]
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
[sup]31[/sup] Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
[sup]32[/sup] “ Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
[sup]33[/sup] Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
[sup]34[/sup] Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
[sup]35[/sup] For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
[sup]36[/sup] But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

 

[Surf Rider]

Sometimes I can't help but see that there is just way too much spiritual doodoo.

It's been nice chatting with y'all.

 

[bud02]

Sometimes I can't help but see that there is just way too much spiritual doodoo.

It's been nice chatting with y'all.

Seems rather simple and obvious to me. But I'm the odd duck out here, obviously.

I am not ignoring you, and the subject of the 360 day calender is interesting, I've gone on to study a bit about the stars and what is thought about them in history.
Have you heard of the Gospel in the stars? Or studied the great pyramid? I was trying to keep the subject on topic, but since I asked watchman and Paul to uncover the foundation of their protest of my rendering of Danial, the subject may go anywhere. BTW I liked your observation about zooming in on scripture. There is a manner, for lack of a better word in prophesy that is seen threw out scripture. a way of seeing macro and then micro, with a layering what was said to what is being said.
Here's an interesting piece of info you can share with your skeptic friends. Job just how did Job know these things we only learned about in the 20th century.

What Holds the Earth Up? Three thousand years ago Hindu priests imagined that the earth was resting on the backs of several huge elephants, which in turn were resting on the back of a very large turtle that was swimming in a sea. Greek mythology claimed that the god Atlas was holding the earth on his shoulders. But thousands of years ago, Job said, “[God] hangeth the earth on nothing.” (Job 26:7) What a remarkable, yet simple statement of fact. The earth is suspended in space—held up by nothing. How did Job know this scientific fact? The Old Testament prophets wrote as they were moved by the spirit of God. 2 Peter 1:21

Astounding Astronomical Facts Revealed to Job

The patriarch Job was extremely wealthy—enjoying a wonderful family. Then tragedy struck. He lost his wealth. His children were killed and his wife deserted him. Then Job lay in excruciating pain, covered with sores from head to toe. He cried out to God for reassurance, and God replied with a reminder of His almighty wisdom, justice, love, and power. God conveyed to Job His dynamic logic in three questions: “Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? …Or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?” Job 38:31-32

The Pleiades: “Canst thou bind the sweet influence of the Pleiades?” Modern science has revealed that the seven stars of the Pleiades are in reality a grouping of 250 blazing suns all traveling together in one common direction. Concerning this cluster, Isabel Lewis of the United States Naval Observatory tells us: “Astronomers have identified 250 stars as actual members of this group, all sharing in a common motion and drifting through space in the same direction... journeying onward together through the immensity of space.”

From Lick Observatory came this statement of Dr. Robert J. Trumpler: “Over 25,000 individual measures of the Pleiades stars are now available, and their study led to the important discovery that the whole cluster is moving in a southeasterly direction. The Pleiades stars may thus be compared to a swarm of birds, flying together to a distant goal. This leaves no doubt that the Pleiades are not a temporary or accidental agglomeration of stars, but a system in which the stars are bound together by a close kinship.” Without any reference whatsoever to the Book of Job, Dr. Trumpler announced to the world exactly what God said: “Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades?” In other words, Job, can you keep them bound together so that they remain as a family of suns?

Orion: “Canst thou . . . loose the bands of Orion?” The noted astronomer Garrett P. Serviss wrote about the bands of Orion in his book CURIOSITIES OF THE SKY. “At the present time this band consists of an almost perfect straight line, a row of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced and of the most striking beauty. In the course of time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist.” In other words, every star in Orion is traveling its own course, independent of all the others. Thus, these stars that we see forming one of the bands of Orion are like three ships out on the high seas that happen to be in line at the present moment, but are bound for different ports, and all are journeying to different corners of the universe, so that the bands are being dissolved.

Arcturus: “Canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?” Garrett P. Serviss wrote: “Arcturus, one of the greatest suns in the universe, is a runaway whose speed of flight is 257 miles per second. Arcturus, we have every reason to believe, possesses thousands of times the mass of our sun. Think of it! Our sun is traveling only 12 miles a second, but Arcturus is traveling 257 miles a second.”

Charles Burckhalter, of the Chabot Observatory, added an interesting note regarding this great sun: “This high velocity places Arcturus in that very small class of stars that apparently are a law unto themselves... Newton gives the velocity of a star under control as not more than 25 miles a second, and Arcturus is going 257 miles a second. Therefore, combined attraction of all the stars we know cannot stop him or even turn him in his path.” When Mr. Burckhalter had his attention called to this text in the book of Job, he studied it in the light of modern discovery and made a statement that has attracted worldwide attention: “The study of the Book of Job and its comparison with the latest scientific discoveries has brought me to the matured conviction that the Bible is an inspired book and was written by the One who made the stars.”

The wonders of God’s universe are amazing! Arcturus and his sons are individual, runaway suns traveling at such incredible speeds, why don’t they crash with other suns or planets? Indeed they will not crash. Why? Because God is guiding them.

God concluded His reassurance to Job with another confirmation of the verity of His authorship of Creation: “Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?” (Job 38:33) God has established laws so governing the motions of all the heavenly bodies that no clash or discord occurs among them. Each world has its appointed pathway and its regulated time, and the most exact calculations of astronomers find them always true to time and order. Thus, by their numberless multitude, their continual yet never conflicting movements, their perfect harmony, their magnitude and their mutual benign influence, do the shining hosts of heaven declare the glory of God, by day and by night. He who meditates upon these things will scarcely be “the fool” who says in his heart, “There is no God;” for all nature testifies to the Creator’s glory and power. Psalm 14:1

Thus, the account of Job cannot be dismissed as simple folklore. Scientists only discovered these startling facts in the Twentieth Century, yet they were recorded in the book of Job nearly 3000 years ago. Science continues to prove God’s Word is true.

 

[veteran]

Well bud, I don't claim to be a Futurist, Historicist, Preterist, nor Dispensationalist, nor any other 'ist'.

And that because if believers hold to those seminary positions they will ultimately be like the old bottles our Lord Jesus said you can't put the "new wine" in lest they break.

Another reason is because I actually do agree with 'some' things in all of those seminary positions. An example from the Historicist/Preterist position I believe involves the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the temple by the Romans as a 'blueprint' fulfillment for the Daniel 70 weeks fulfillment. Notice I sad as a 'blueprint'.

Antiochus in 165 B.C. served as a 'blueprint' fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy also, and that was around 70 years PRIOR to our Lord Jesus giving the "abomination of desolation" warning in Matt.24. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.), the Romans didn't do what Antiochus did in Jerusalem. The temple burned down before the Romans could sieze it and setup false idol worship in it (a point which you have failed to address). Yet Antiochus IV did enter the temple and setup an idol in false worship.

Also, there's the matter that our Lord Jesus said not one stone would be standing on top of another at the temple mount to show the timing of the signs He was giving in Matt.24. The Wailing Wall which was part of the old temple complex still stands in Jerusalem today. Nor did Christ's SECOND COMING happen then in 70 A.D. But the 70 A.D. destruction DOES serve as a BLUEPRINT FULFILLMENT of the Daniel prophecy. But not the FINAL FULFILLMENT.

Some prophecies in God's Word have had a no new thing under the sun type fulfillment through history, while the FINAL fulfillment still waits today (the day of The LORD usages in the OT histories as an example). Some of the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 have had previous 'blueprint' type fulfillments, the abomination of desolation prophecy being one of them. I forget when, but Jerusalem was even conquered at one time in history with Jupiter worship instituted and the name for Jerusalem was temporarily changed!

Not all of the Historicist/Preterist views include the false belief that Christ's second coming was history back then. That is the Full Preterist doctrine which believes that. But with the Preterist/Historicist view that the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D., it's not a very far jump for one on those views to begin accepting the lie that Christ's second coming is a 'spiritual coming' only, and not a literal coming with our being gathered to Him as written.

The main problem I have with the Historicist/Preterist position on the 70 weeks prophecy is how one on those views must deny the unfulfilled parameters of the Daniel and Olivet prophecy, and how certain twists by those views are present to make it appear... it has been fulfilled.

The 7 years time period comes from the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27, and to deny that as a 7 year period in itself is an obvious twist away from the Scripture. There's been plenty of scholars who held to a Historicist view of Matt.24 which also admit that "one week" period means a period of 7 years. So the 7 years of Dan.9:27 is not an idea originating from Futurist Pre-Trib circles like some here think. Many Historicists agree with it, just as some partial Preterists do also.

Better to stay with the times God's Word gives, rather than latching onto any seminary category with trying to make God's Word instead fit it.

 

[Surf Rider]

The statement that "not one stone...." was in reply to what? The disciples' statement of "look at these building, master! Aren't they impressive?!" Even a modicum of research reveals that Herod expanded the whole temple grounds area. And it included structures that were not part of the temple. Even the courtyard was increased quite significantly in size. But how was this accomplished, as the site was very limited due to the rough terrain, ie, a valley and cliff? Herod expanded the site with "landfill", to use a modern term. But that needed to have something to hold it, and to use another modern term, a berm was built to hold the fill in, else an extremely ponderous amount of fill would have been needed. Even so, the amount that Herod filled in is truly amazing. And indeed, as Christ said, every stone of those buildings was torn down. Not one remains on top of another. The wailing wall is not part of any building, but a part of the land upon which the site was built, upon which the temple's buildings, plural, were built. To hold that because there are stones on top of each other regarding the berm that held the fill for the site for the temple and it's accompanying buildings to be built upon still stand, that Christ's statement hasn't been filled, exhibits a basic lack of fundamental knowlege of the situation: inclusive of the question that the disciples asked, Christ's answer, and the site specifics itself.

And yes, this is why I weary of so many posts, as they are fraught with flagrant assumptions that are applied to the word of God, no matter what the word of God, or history, or archeology, or exegesis state.

People can't even count Benjamin's age, Easter, etc., and yet they STILL persist in stating that they can understand the rest of the word of God.

People state that Paul called Cretans "Lazy, liars, brutes". Crazy.

People twist all sorts of things in the word of God. Joel, and Peter, called the "day of Jehovah" had happened! Peter was filled with the Spirit, as was Joel, and the word of God says that it was fulfilled. But again, people have argued before the data (scripture), and they come to conclusions that don't fit it, and they still insist that they have the truth. AMAZING! So either the previous poster is a liar, or Joel and Peter were liars, or the Spirit was confused when He inspired them. I'll stick with the scritpures, and call any man or woman that contradicts their blunt statements, liars. And I'll probably have my post deleted because it is "unkind", even though it is scripture itself that has proven my statement to be correct, for it is based solely upon scripture.

So go ahead and read Joel. Read it all, but because posters will be so confused, they still won't see that Peter quoted the end of the 2nd chapter and said that it had been fulfilled right then, some 2000 years ago. And ya know what? The Spirit called it the day of Jehovah. It was called the day fo the Lord in God's word. And we have all sorts of people that can't even read that and accept it, yet they state that they accept the word of God and understand it better than others. To quote my Savior: "fools and blind!" I call not man a fool: Christ does. Yet we have so many that state that they know Him and His word, but they contradict Him and His word in even the most simple statements that we read in it.

(Joe 2:27) And you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah your God, and no one else; and My people shall never be ashamed.

(Joe 2:28) And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.

(Joe 2:29) And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave women in those days.

(Joe 2:30) And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

(Joe 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.

(Joe 2:32) And it shall be, whoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved; for salvation shall be in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as Jehovah has said, and in the remnant whom Jehovah shall call.


(Act 2:16) But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:

(Act 2:17) "And it shall be in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

(Act 2:18) And in those days I will pour out My Spirit upon My slaves and My slave women, and they shall prophesy.

(Act 2:19) And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miracles on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.

(Act 2:20) The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord.

(Act 2:21) And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."


People disagree with this, and yet state that they understand prophecy! That is sheer stupidity! Let me say it again: that is sheer stupidity! And we argue with them and debate with them regarding prophecy as if they have something to offer to those who accept the word of God for what it states, as if we can learn from them or even open their eyes to the error of their ways? As scripture states elsewhere, they are unwilling to acknowledge the error of their ways and turn and repent and humble themselves before God. And it is fully proven in their beliefs, for "as a man thinks, so is he."

Joel did not lie. Peter did not lie. God did not lie. If anyone states that the day of the Lord did not occur, then they state that Joel and Peter and God are liars. I can think of nothing more arrogant than to state that ones' self is correct, but Joel, Peter, and God are wrong. And Christ, too, regarding stones on top of each other. Crazy.

Doesn't anybody else have a problem with that? And that isn't censored on this forum?!!!! Come on now -- we have people stating that the prophets and apostles and God Himself is a liar, and yet they are not censored! But most likely I will be for calling such people liars.

PREPOSTEROUS!

Spiritual charlatans.

AMAZING

AMAZING

AMAZING


But then again, Christ said that it would be this way, didn't He!!!!!!

Censor me.

Call me arrogant.

Lock this thread --- he's out of control!

Delete the posts!

But I give the word of God only, even quoting it. Silly me.

So I'm done on this forum for a while. Not even gonna bother reading posts, so if you want me to read something, PM me so that it goes to my email, otherwise I won't see it. I have done what I came to do and will not come back until I am led to come back.

 

[bud02]

Well bud, I don't claim to be a Futurist, Historicist, Preterist, nor Dispensationalist, nor any other 'ist'.

The main problem I have with the Historicist/Preterist position on the 70 weeks prophecy is how one on those views must deny the unfulfilled parameters of the Daniel and Olivet prophecy, and how certain twists by those views are present to make it appear... it has been fulfilled.

The 7 years time period comes from the final "one week" of Daniel 9:27, and to deny that as a 7 year period in itself is an obvious twist away from the Scripture. There's been plenty of scholars who held to a Historicist view of Matt.24 which also admit that "one week" period means a period of 7 years. So the 7 years of Dan.9:27 is not an idea originating from Futurist Pre-Trib circles like some here think. Many Historicists agree with it, just as some partial Preterists do also.

Better to stay with the times God's Word gives, rather than latching onto any seminary category with trying to make God's Word instead fit it.

Thanks Veteran, this is exactly what reason together means. I would just as soon drop the labels myself but I use historicist when I have to define myself when I must.

The unfulfilled parameters of the Daniel and Olivet prophecy you speak of I am not absolutely certain about parts you are speaking of. Danial's vision includes
Ch 8
[sup]16[/sup] And I heard a man’s voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Danial at the end of 8 [sup]27[/sup] And I, Daniel, fainted and was sick for days; it then picks up again, one reason I believe this prophesy is key to understanding Rev and Danial both. The simple fact that God instructs Gabriel to make him understand. and we see the continuance in 9, the key to understanding.

9[sup] [/sup][sup]22[/sup] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. [sup]23[/sup] At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:

Thats is three times Danial understand is used. The last to are direct orders like the first . make this man understand the vision. then, Give you skill to understand, and finally in 23 understand the vision.

In CH 10 again we see confirmation of this first order given to Gabriel make him understand, we know this because now Gabriel says. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.” Now following the command and the word understand we see this is separate from chapter 8 and 9. And the key lies in Danial 9. To confirm this lets step back and consider what I am proposing. Looking over the entire bible from Gen to Rev what is it contents about?

Gen 3
[sup]15[/sup] And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Gen 12
[sup]2[/sup] I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you
And make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing. [sup]3[/sup] I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” .........we can take quite literally the English And in you inside the vehicle "the delivery method".

Danial 9
[sup]25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

I'm sure you understand my point, its about Jesus from beginning to end. The restoration of man from the fall. Jesus is the focus not Israel. Israel was the delivery method not the promise itself. God chose Abram to be the delivery method. One of the major misunderstandings I find is the product of dispensationalism, the concept that salvation "Jesus" can not be separated from Israel "the delivery method" Thats why so many have trouble with the verse, [sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city,
All the things they are taught that you can not separate the promise from the vehicle. So lies the need to displace "dispensationalism" the last week to some future time.

[sup]25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
The street shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.

When Jesus got off the bus "the delivery method" promised to Abram He spent 3.5 years with them personally. Then an additional 3.5 years offering them salvation first. He blessed the bus "Israel" and made them first. John 4 :[sup]22[/sup] You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. Everything God wanted to tell the world concerning His salvation He told through the Jews,
Gen 49:[sup]10[/sup] The scepter shall not depart from Judah,
Nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
Until Shiloh comes; ...............................................................do you see this and understand...... 70 weeks are determined
And to Him shall be the obedience of the people.

Then salvation went to "all the families of the earth shall be blessed". The next problem is understanding that salvation is complete in Jesus, I mean complete, the word of the prophets must be fulfilled. But the authority, power the way of restoration for fallen man is complete. Nothing yet to be completed for salvation, just the metamorphosis of those that are saved threw the completed work of God. [sup]11[/sup] For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

 

[veteran]

Thanks Veteran, this is exactly what reason together means. I would just as soon drop the labels myself but I use historicist when I have to define myself when I must.

The unfulfilled parameters of the Daniel and Olivet prophecy you speak of I am not absolutely certain about parts you are speaking of. Danial's vision includes...

Well, either one sees the events of the seven seals as an overlay of the signs Christ gave in His Olivet discourse, or one doesn't. I do, and that's why it's impossible for me to accept the idea of the Olivet signs being a final fulfillment back in 70 A.D. What the Romans did was just another blueprint like Antiochus in 165 B.C., but Antiochus was more successful in fulfilling the parameters of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel.

Daniel 11 & 12 has the 'rest of the story' involving the Dan.9:27 "one week" fulfullment. The vile person making a league, conquering Jerusalem and placing the abomination that makes desolate must be counted within that 70 weeks prophecy, and the Olivet signs our Lord gave. The fact that Apostle John after 70 A.D. with Revelation was given more details by Christ involving those events in Daniel further cancels arguments that the abomination of desolation event was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

I'm sure you understand my point, its about Jesus from beginning to end. The restoration of man from the fall. Jesus is the focus not Israel. Israel was the delivery method not the promise itself. God chose Abram to be the delivery method. One of the major misunderstandings I find is the product of dispensationalism, the concept that salvation "Jesus" can not be separated from Israel "the delivery method" Thats why so many have trouble with the verse, [sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city,
All the things they are taught that you can not separate the promise from the vehicle. So lies the need to displace "dispensationalism" the last week to some future time.

I don't see the final "one week" of Daniel being displaced at all by it being about the end of this world, and that's not dependent upon Dispensationalist doctrine. Trying to hang the Dispensationalist hat on the Daniel prophecy is simply a straw man.

In Luke 4 our Lord Jesus went into the temple at the start of His Ministry and read from the Book of Isaiah 61:1-2. Yet, He stopped reading before He got to the very last phrase of Isa.61:2, and instead closed the Book, and said only what He read was then fulfilled in their ears. He didn't read the very last part of Isa.61:2 about the "days of vengeance...". Right there our Lord Jesus showed how sections of prophecy can be fulfilled while a last part waits fulfillment. That days of vengeance is about His second coming on the day of The LORD, which is still expecting today. That's why He closed the Book of Isaiah before He got to that part. And how long has it been now since He read that first part of Isaiah 61:1-2? Over 2,000 years, and the last part still waits to be fulfilled at His return.

That prophetic example in Isaiah 61:1-3 Christ Himself gave in Luke 4 totally deflates the idea that the final "one week" must be concurrent with the previous 69 weeks. If there can be a gap of time between His first coming and His second coming, there also can be a gap between the 69th week and the 70 week. Just saying there is no gap is not enough.


Concerning the last part of what you posted, there's problems with that view too, because with that view there's much Bible prophecy involving God's fulfilled Plan of Salvation left out of it. His Plan of Salvation will not be over until the new heavens and a new earth time, when the "lake of fire" event is past. We've still got a ways to go before that time is reached, for Christ's second coming has still yet to happen today.

About God's Israel...

I'm sorry that you don't see how God is never going to cast off His people of the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31-33 might be a good refresher about that, even as Ezekiel 37. Also, the end of Romans 11 would be a good study joined with that OT evidence.

I'm one that strongly believes that God scattered the majority of the seed of Israel to the West, with their being the founders of the western Christian nations, and through them God sent The Gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations. And those of the Gentiles who also believed with them, have become one body in Christ Jesus. With that it would be impossible to deny how God has kept His promises to the seed of Israel.

 

[bud02]

Well, either one sees the events of the seven seals as an overlay of the signs Christ gave in His Olivet discourse, or one doesn't. I do, and that's why it's impossible for me to accept the idea of the Olivet signs being a final fulfillment back in 70 A.D. What the Romans did was just another blueprint like Antiochus in 165 B.C., but Antiochus was more successful in fulfilling the parameters of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel.

Daniel 11 & 12 has the 'rest of the story' involving the Dan.9:27 "one week" fulfullment. The vile person making a league, conquering Jerusalem and placing the abomination that makes desolate must be counted within that 70 weeks prophecy, and the Olivet signs our Lord gave. The fact that Apostle John after 70 A.D. with Revelation was given more details by Christ involving those events in Daniel further cancels arguments that the abomination of desolation event was fulfilled in 70 A.D. by the Romans.

To be right honest I really don't understand your term Olivet discourse, or Olivet signs. But a quick search answered my question. You several statements that "not one stone shall be left upon another" as not being fulfilled with the destruction in 70 AD. Is the standard John Hagee, Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsy, teaching.

Jesus then warned the disciples about the Abomination of Desolation "standing where it does not belong." The Gospels of Matthew and Mark add "—let the reader understand—". This is generally considered to be a reference to two passages from the Book of Daniel.[sup][Dan. 9:27][/sup] [sup][11:31][/sup]

All I can say is look, there has not been an Israel temple since 70 AD in 168 a shrine to Zeus set up in place of the old temple in 168 BC by Antiochus lv Epiphanes. Later 688-691 the dome of the rock was built, and stands today. So lies your need for a new temple, so the Jews can in the future fulfill what has all ready taken place. In spite of what you say in your next statement below. You are literally displacing to 70th week to some future event. There has been an abomination " shrine to an other god" standing on the temple mound for nearly 2000 years. After the temple was burned in 70 AD the Romans literally pried the stones apart to collect the gold that was melted from the fire.

I don't see the final "one week" of Daniel being displaced at all by it being about the end of this world, and that's not dependent upon Dispensationalist doctrine. Trying to hang the Dispensationalist hat on the Daniel prophecy is simply a straw man.

Fulfilled literally in A.D. 70, when the Romans under Titus completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple buildings. Stones were even pried apart to collect the gold leaf that melted from the roof when the temple was set on fire. The stones were massive. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, they were white and some of them were 37 feet long, 12 feet high and 18 feet wide.. Excavations in 1968 uncovered large numbers of these stones, toppled from the walls by the invaders. So not one stone was left on another in the attempt to loot the gold leaf.

In Luke 4 our Lord Jesus went into the temple at the start of His Ministry and read from the Book of Isaiah 61:1-2. Yet, He stopped reading before He got to the very last phrase of Isa.61:2, and instead closed the Book, and said only what He read was then fulfilled in their ears. He didn't read the very last part of Isa.61:2 about the "days of vengeance...". Right there our Lord Jesus showed how sections of prophecy can be fulfilled while a last part waits fulfillment. That days of vengeance is about His second coming on the day of The LORD, which is still expecting today. That's why He closed the Book of Isaiah before He got to that part. And how long has it been now since He read that first part of Isaiah 61:1-2? Over 2,000 years, and the last part still waits to be fulfilled at His return.

That prophetic example in Isaiah 61:1-3 Christ Himself gave in Luke 4 totally deflates the idea that the final "one week" must be concurrent with the previous 69 weeks. If there can be a gap of time between His first coming and His second coming, there also can be a gap between the 69th week and the 70 week. Just saying there is no gap is not enough.

All well and good, but I see the whole of Isa 61 as being the life or ministry of Jesus. You take one line from one verse and say it future.
[sup]2[/sup] To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD,
And the day of vengeance of our God;
To comfort all who mourn,

Now as we read on, keep in mind the beatitudes of Jesus, to comfort all who morn. As for your vengeance read my very last post MT 3:7

[sup]3[/sup] To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;
That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the LORD, that He may be glorified.”

[sup]8[/sup] “ For I, the LORD, love justice;
I hate robbery for burnt offering;
I will direct their work in truth,
And will make with them an everlasting covenant.

[sup]9[/sup] Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles,
And their offspring among the people.
All who see them shall acknowledge them,
That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.”
[sup]10[/sup] I will greatly rejoice in the LORD,
My soul shall be joyful in my God;
For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation,
He has covered me with the robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
[sup]11[/sup] For as the earth brings forth its bud,
As the garden causes the things that are sown in it to spring forth,
So the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Another verse that is used to support your interpretation is Romans.

11:[sup]25[/sup] For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. [sup]26[/sup] And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:


“ The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
[sup]27[/sup] For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”[sup][h][/sup]

[sup]28[/sup] Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. [sup]29[/sup] For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [sup]30[/sup] For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, [sup]31[/sup] even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. [sup]32[/sup] For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
[sup]33[/sup] Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!

Its verse "Above" is also wrongly taken to mean the Jews are blinded by God until the 70th week in the future. read it carefully and then read this.

2 cor 3:[sup]11[/sup] For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— [sup]13[/sup] unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. [sup]14[/sup] But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. [sup]15[/sup] But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [sup]17[/sup] Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [sup]18[/sup] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The heart of this teaching is that there is no special type of salvation offered to the Jews or the entire House of Israel. As I said before they are the delivery method. They are blinded by their own heart, not God. Just as the gospel says, the renewing of your mind and heart threw Christ Jesus. The same applies for both Jew and Gentile. As hes says here, [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. The Jews depended on their blood line for salvation, Jesus nor John the baptist recognized that fact. Its all about turning to Jesus and the veil is lifted. Just as the veil in the temple was torn at Christ crucifixion. This special favor or promise that you believe the "Jews" posses is another Gospel. Its not the Gospel taught by Christ.

About God's Israel...

I'm sorry that you don't see how God is never going to cast off His people of the nation of Israel. Jeremiah 31-33 might be a good refresher about that, even as Ezekiel 37. Also, the end of Romans 11 would be a good study joined with that OT evidence.

If John does not make it clear, or Paul that the nation "all Israel is not Israel" as he states in Romans, then you IMHO do not understand the Gospel, or the unconditional promise to Abram.

Mathew 3:[sup]7[/sup] But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? [sup]8[/sup] Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, [sup]9[/sup] and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. [sup]10[/sup] And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. [sup]11[/sup] I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.[sup][b][/sup] [sup]12[/sup] His winnowing fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”

 

[veteran]

To be right honest I really don't understand your term Olivet discourse, or Olivet signs. But a quick search answered my question. You several statements that "not one stone shall be left upon another" as not being fulfilled with the destruction in 70 AD. Is the standard John Hagee, Tim Lahaye and Hal Lindsy, teaching.

I'm not pulling from those folks brother. I'm not Pre-Trib at all. It doesn't take much common sense to understand when our Lord Jesus told His disciples while upon the Mount of Olives overlooking the temple complex, about a day when not one stone would be standing on top of another there, that's exactly what He meant. It's because that event is about the time of His coming and the great earthquake that will occur in that area per Zech.14 and in loads of both OT and NT Scripture. And to show that His disciples understood what He meant by that, they then asked Him what the sign of His coming and the end of this world would be. The signs that Christ gave in His Olivet discourse were to show events leading up to that, i.e., the day of The LORD events.

All I can say is look, there has not been an Israel temple since 70 AD in 168 a shrine to Zeus set up in place of the old temple in 168 BC by Antiochus lv Epiphanes. Later 688-691 the dome of the rock was built, and stands today. So lies your need for a new temple, so the Jews can in the future fulfill what has all ready taken place. In spite of what you say in your next statement below. You are literally displacing to 70th week to some future event. There has been an abomination " shrine to an other god" standing on the temple mound for nearly 2000 years. After the temple was burned in 70 AD the Romans literally pried the stones apart to collect the gold that was melted from the fire.

I don't need a temple in Jerusalem today, it's not about me, even though we know Christ will have a Temple there for His future thousands years reign, per Ezekiel 40 forward. It's the orthodox unbelieving Jews that say THEY must have a temple in Jerusalem, for they believe the Old Covenant is still in effect. They still look for Messiah. And the main reason the Jews desired to become a nation-state again in the land was to that ultimate aim. And now in our generation, they have the materials ready to build it.

Nor am I the one that is displacing those signs Christ gave in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, for those signs were not fulfilled in 70 A.D., nor any previous time, nor later time. Preterism which believes those signs Christ gave have already been fulfilled also believe Christ's second coming is past, and that it was a 'spiritual' coming, not a literal return like God's Word declares.

I truly feel sad for those who claim to be Christian that believe there will be no second coming of our Lord Jesus in the future, a literal return to this earth like God's Word declares, because it would mean the dead aren't raised, nor are we gathered to Christ to literally be with Him. It would also mean no end of this present world, basically, many of the things our Lord Jesus and His Apostles said we were to have hope for and remain faithful that He will bring to pass. But that's exactly the ideas Preterism is leading many into with treating the signs of the end Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives as being fulfilled back in 70 A.D. It's simple, either one believes the signs He gave are for the end of this world, or they don't. And the last sign He gave there is about His return and our gathering to Him.

You also reveal that you don't actually understand the depth of what the "abomination of desolation" event really is. Jerusalem has been sieged and taken something like 27 times in its history. Just the idea of a foreign army taking Jerusalem and setting up their own shrine there is not the fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. If you limit yourself to just a study in Daniel you'll miss what it is. Our Lord Jesus gave us His Revelation with more specific details about it, even as His Olivet discourse is very specific. It is dependent upon a false Christ that actually is given the power to work great signs and wonders on earth so powerful that it would even deceive Christ's elect, if they were able to be deceived. They won't be, which is why they are His elect. Antiochus never fulfilled that, nor did the Romans, nor Mohammed, nor any man as of yet.

Fulfilled literally in A.D. 70, when the Romans under Titus completely destroyed Jerusalem and the temple buildings. Stones were even pried apart to collect the gold leaf that melted from the roof when the temple was set on fire. The stones were massive. According to the Jewish historian Josephus, they were white and some of them were 37 feet long, 12 feet high and 18 feet wide.. Excavations in 1968 uncovered large numbers of these stones, toppled from the walls by the invaders. So not one stone was left on another in the attempt to loot the gold leaf.

It's true the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the temple burned down before they could gain possession of it, but how is it they missed those huge stones of the Wailing Wall which still stand there today? With Christ's return on the day of The LORD, there won't be stone structures built by man standing anywhere upon the earth, for God's consuming fire and great shaking of this earth on that day will see to that, as written. And if the Jews today do build another temple today as planned, what will that do to theories of a 70 A.D. fulfillment? Those theories from men's doctrines will fall by the wayside.

All well and good, but I see the whole of Isa 61 as being the life or ministry of Jesus. You take one line from one verse and say it future.

Luke 4:18-21
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And He closed the book, and He gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on Him.
21 And He began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
(KJV)

That above is what Jesus said was fulfilled at His first coming. Is it that difficult to see those verses from Isaiah He read were not completed until His death on the cross and Resurrection? That was about His first coming. And that's why He stopped reading in Isa.61:2 at that point.

Isa 61:2-11
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Do I really need to show how the Scripture from that phrase in bold is about His second coming? Just when is that "day of vengeance of our God"?

Isa 34:6-10
6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
(KJV)

Jer 46:10
10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that He may avenge Him of His adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
(KJV)

Luke 21:22-28
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
(KJV)

II Th 1:7-10
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
(KJV)

I'm surprised that you don't know about all that Scripture evidence. I could present many more, but why not read your Bible for yourself, instead of listening to men?

What timing are the following Isaiah 61 events for? Christ's first coming? No. For after His second coming... after the "day of vengeance"...

Isa.61:3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He might be glorified.

Zion in Jerusalem today is yet to be glorified by The LORD. And it certainly won't be when the Jews there today build another temple and start up Old Covenant sacrifices again. Surely you knew Jerusalem and the Jews rejected Christ at His first coming, and they crucified Him. Or maybe you think this Isaiah Scripture isn't about the literal place on earth called Jerusalem and Zion? Wait a minute...

Isa.61:4 And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
5 And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
6 But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

Those events aren't history, that's about Christ's LITERAL Salvation in Jerusalem of the future, AFTER His future return there. That's actually about the Church being gathered to Jerusalem and being in power there. When has that ever happenned since Christ's first coming? It hasn't yet, but it will.

Isa.61:7 For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.

That is pointing to the remnant of twelve tribes of Israel being established back in the holy land, in final, believing Gentiles with them and Christ as Head. The idea of a double portion is only about the elect of God. That's about taking our inheritance under Christ, for that's the area on earth we are to inherit with Him. Who's got possession of it today? Christ's Church? Of course not.

Isa.61:8 For I the LORD love judgment, I hate robbery for burnt offering; and I will direct their work in truth, and I will make an everlasting covenant with them.
9 And their seed shall be known among the Gentiles, and their offspring among the people: all that see them shall acknowledge them, that they are the seed which the LORD hath blessed.
10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.
11 For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord GOD will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.
(KJV)

That time of righteousness is not just about the idea of preaching The Gospel of Jesus Christ during His Ministry. It's about the literal event of Christ's future reign on earth with all the nations coming up to Jerusalem to worship HIm, as shown in Zech.14:16. That subject was just covered back at the previous Isaiah 60 chapter about the Gentiles coming up to Jerusalem to worship. Much of the latter chapters of Isaiah is about that Salvation involving Jerusalem on earth in the future, so it's very difficult to miss.

Another verse that is used to support your interpretation is Romans.

Its verse "Above" is also wrongly taken to mean the Jews are blinded by God until the 70th week in the future. read it carefully and then read this.

2 cor 3:[sup]11[/sup] For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
[sup]12[/sup] Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— [sup]13[/sup] unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. [sup]14[/sup] But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. [sup]15[/sup] But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. [sup]17[/sup] Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. [sup]18[/sup] But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

The heart of this teaching is that there is no special type of salvation offered to the Jews or the entire House of Israel. As I said before they are the delivery method. They are blinded by their own heart, not God. Just as the gospel says, the renewing of your mind and heart threw Christ Jesus. The same applies for both Jew and Gentile. As hes says here, [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. The Jews depended on their blood line for salvation, Jesus nor John the baptist recognized that fact. Its all about turning to Jesus and the veil is lifted. Just as the veil in the temple was torn at Christ crucifixion. This special favor or promise that you believe the "Jews" posses is another Gospel. Its not the Gospel taught by Christ.

Sorry to say it, but you're in gross spiritual blindness in thinking that you can write off the seed of Israel when God has not done so. You would do well to heed this:

Jer 31:35-37
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, Which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
(KJV)

And it's you my friend that has the double Gospel idea backwards, for that false doctrine is really about men's doctrines of a gospel of the kingdom to Israel only, and a gospel of grace only to the Gentiles, when there's just ONE Gospel of Jesus Christ about His Kingdom and His Grace to both alike. Maybe you ought to re-read what Paul said in Rom.11:1-5 about a remnant FLESH seed of Israel according to the election of grace. The Gospel began with God's Promise to Israel, and it has continued to manifest through the seed of Israel, even today, and it also will evermore when the believing remnant of the seed of Israel is gathered by Christ in final back to the lands God promised their fathers. And that has nothing to do with those of Israel that refuse Christ still, like the unbelieving Jews. If any of them remain in unbelief, just like the unbelieving Gentile, then those who refuse Christ will be cut off. But the remnant of Israel God has preserved will never be cut off from Christ's Salvation.

And I understand why those like yourself must TRY to eliminate the seed of Israel from Christ's Salvation. It's because you choose to believe Christ's Salvation is about the concoctions from doctrines of men instead of God's Holy Writ. Much of that falseness is about their throwing away this earth in Christ's Salvation, when God's Word in both OT and NT declare how His Salvation will VERY MUCH involve this earth, but a renewed earth where righteousness will dwell. Or maybe you don't really believe what our Lord said that the meek shall inherit THE EARTH?

If John does not make it clear, or Paul that the nation "all Israel is not Israel" as he states in Romans, then you IMHO do not understand the Gospel, or the unconditional promise to Abram.

Oh, I understand Paul's Message in Romans very well. And I don't slice and dice Romans like many do, because Rom.9 is not the only chapter Paul was teaching on the subject of Israel's Salvation.

Rom 11:25-32
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all.
(KJV)

You obviously haven't studied enough of the Old Testament to even come close to grasping what all Paul was teaching there about Israel. Those OT quotes there which Paul gave from Isaiah 59 and Jeremiah 31-32 are just a hint of what he was talking about concerning Christ's Salvation to Israel. You obviously need a lot more OT Bible study. (Yet you're not alone, most Christians need a lot more OT Bible study today).

 

[242006]

It is pretty clear you have a very different fundamental understanding of scripture than I and many others. It sounds as thou you are implying that Satan is omnipresent the same as God.
Without need of presents and uses a spirit. I believe Satan can only be in one place at one time similar to any Angle we see in scripture.

Well, I never tell people what to believe. It is your right and your choice to be wrong.

Though Satan, in person [entity as he is not flesh], can be only in one place at a time, his spirit roams the earth [you quoted the scripture yourself].

You also say that Satan is in heaven and not on earth today inspite of what scripture says.

You have no scripture stating that Satan, in person, is here today. [It is a strawman argument to cite Job 1 as proof.]

Its clear you beleive that scriptural reference to him, is a case of him acting threw some omnipresent spirt. From this I and perhaps others will conclude you do not accept the plain text reading of scripture, but choose to interpret it with your hidden knowledge of the first earth age, rather than scripture its self. I've been doing this long enough to realize that I nor scripture can ever convince you differently. It is simply a pointless waste of my time. The devision between us has now become one of be-leaving Gods word alone or be-leaving Gods word combined with strange wifes tells.

LOL...you are a funny person!

If you don not believe in a prior age, you don't believe the Bible. See 2 Pet. 3.

I am trying to make readers here understand just how important properly interpreting Gods word alone is, demonstrating how one verse can dramatically effect the whole of scripture, much less injecting things that are not.

And, as this discourse goes on, the readers can clearly see that it is YOU that cannot interpret scripture properly.

I'm not going to comment on it any longer, this is not just a disagreement between believers this is a disagreement in the nature of satan, making him equal with god in the sense that he orchestrates his mischief from heaven to the whole earth as God. I did use the word omnipresent. And your references to the first earth age are a telling sign as well. I would like to point out to readers that haven't read about this, don't think that watchman is refering to the days of Noah / pre-flood earth. He is speaking of a time that predates any clear scripture, a time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.This secret knowledge you and Paul posses from your pastor kind of says it all. just come out and use your special vision, or define it please.

Well, I believe in the Bible; whereas, you do not! Since the formation of Adam only goes back a bit over 6,000 years, the next fairy tale you will try to teach us [as truth] is that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

 

[242006]

I have yet to see a detailed account from you or Watchman. Nether of you offer an alternative. How is it that God is glorified by simply disagreeing?

For people looking for answers or clues to a greater understanding, don't you think it advantageous to present your views, rather than just disagree? By the way who is it that operates this site. Who ever it is keeps doesn't make their identity public, or an I just not seeing it?

I believe that I have made it clear to the viewers that there is a gap in time between the 69th and 70th weeks. The 70th week represents the last 7 years of this flesh dispensation of time.

As for the first age, it is fact and not speculation -

2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

 

[bud02]

I don't need a temple in Jerusalem today, it's not about me, even though we know Christ will have a Temple there for His future thousands years reign, per Ezekiel 40 forward. It's the orthodox unbelieving Jews that say THEY must have a temple in Jerusalem, for they believe the Old Covenant is still in effect. They still look for Messiah. And the main reason the Jews desired to become a nation-state again in the land was to that ultimate aim. And now in our generation, they have the materials ready to build it.

Nor am I the one that is displacing those signs Christ gave in His Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, for those signs were not fulfilled in 70 A.D., nor any previous time, nor later time. Preterism which believes those signs Christ gave have already been fulfilled also believe Christ's second coming is past, and that it was a 'spiritual' coming, not a literal return like God's Word declares.

Look I'm not teaching Preterism, all I have been indicating is that Dan. 9-27 is Jesus not the AC. Now I don't know how you intend to fulfill your rendition of 9-27 as the AC or any of the other 2 references to abomination of desolation without a temple. But thats what your saying above.
The phrase "abomination of desolation" is found in three texts in the book of Danial.

Daniel 9:27 (ASV) "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate."

Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

I truly feel sad for those who claim to be Christian that believe there will be no second coming of our Lord Jesus in the future, literal return to this earth like God's Word declares, because it would mean the dead aren't raised, nor are we gathered to Christ to literally be with Him. It would also mean no end of this present world, basically, many of the things our Lord Jesus and His Apostles said we were to have hope for and remain faithful that He will bring to pass. But that's exactly the ideas Preterism is leading many into with treating the signs of the end Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives as being fulfilled back in 70 A.D. It's simple, either one believes the signs He gave are for the end of this world, or they don't. And the last sign He gave there is about His return and our gathering to Him.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth, I never said that nor will I ever say that. This is something you start rambling about just as you did above. You dont need a temple, but some how the abomination will happen. Whether you realize it or not, what you have been taught has it's root in Dan. 9-27. Its the key to applying a 7 year trib to Revelation, and for most in your camp,----- all of Rev from chapter 5 on is entirely the last week or 7 years of Danial.

You also reveal that you don't actually understand the depth of what the "abomination of desolation" event really is. Jerusalem has been sieged and taken something like 27 times in its history. Just the idea of a foreign army taking Jerusalem and setting up their own shrine there is not the fulfillment of the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel. If you limit yourself to just a study in Daniel you'll miss what it is. Our Lord Jesus gave us His Revelation with more specific details about it, even as His Olivet discourse is very specific. It is dependent upon a false Christ that actually is given the power to work great signs and wonders on earth so powerful that it would even deceive Christ's elect, if they were able to be deceived. They won't be, which is why they are His elect. Antiochus never fulfilled that, nor did the Romans, nor Mohammed, nor any man as of yet.

I dont deny that, but Danial 9-27 is not describing this person. 9-26 is simply describing who the people of this prince shall be. And the people of the prince who is to come. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the people of this prince to come, destroying the temple. In Mathew 24 the disciples asked what will be the signs of your coming at the end of the AGE. after He declared the temple desolate, and said not one stone will be left on another. I'm going to go threw the whole picture from the end of 23 to the end of 24.

Mathew 23:32 to 24:31
[sup]32[/sup] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [sup]33[/sup] Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [sup]34[/sup] Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [sup]35[/sup] that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [sup]36[/sup] Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

Note the bold above, this is speaking of the temple not the entire tribulation AGE. Jesus has been blasting the Scribes and Pharisees for the whole of CH 23 ending 23 with a desolate house, then begins 24 with no stone upon another.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

[sup]37[/sup] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [sup]38[/sup] See! Your house is left to you desolate; [sup]39[/sup] for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”[sup]


[/sup]Mathew 24:

Jesus Predicts the Destruction of the Temple

[sup]1[/sup] Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [sup]2[/sup] And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

The Signs of the Times and the End of the Age

We clearly have the destruction of the temple before He begins to speak about the end of the age. In those times an age was also know as a period of the heavens "stars" moving from one constellation to another, roughly 2000 years. It could also mean the age of the Gentiles like people like yourself refer to it as. But as will see later Jesus refers to this age as the great tribulation.

[sup]3[/sup] Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

He has already told them the destruction of the temple as the writer of Mathew makes clear. Now He tells them what comes after. Note!!! where He starts For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.

[sup]4[/sup] And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. [sup]5[/sup] For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. [sup]6[/sup] And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all[sup][a][/sup]these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [sup]7[/sup] For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences,[sup][b][/sup] and earthquakes in various places. [sup]8[/sup] All these are the beginning of sorrows.
[sup]9[/sup] “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. [sup]10[/sup] And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. [sup]11[/sup] Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. [sup]12[/sup] And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. [sup]13[/sup] But he who endures to the end shall be saved. [sup]14[/sup] And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The Great Tribulation
Now Jesus recaps the whole line of events in greater detail. The ‘abomination of desolation the destruction of the temple first, in 70 ad. The warning to flee when you see this happening, why because the Romans are trying to exterminate the Jews and Christians, along with the temple. This is the beginning of the AGE Jesus describes as the great tribulation.

Begin Recap with a zoom view
[sup]15[/sup] “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[sup][c][/sup] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [sup]16[/sup] “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [sup]17[/sup] Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. [sup]18[/sup] And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. [sup]19[/sup] But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! [sup]20[/sup] And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. [sup]21[/sup]

-------------------------temple and Jerusalem destroyed----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------Start of great tribulation-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. [sup]22[/sup] And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

-----------------Note from verse 5. Now He recaps from verse 5 with verse 23, but what has gone before this point in the recap. The TEMPLE------------
-----------------Then the beginning of the Great Tribulation, Then He takes off from where he started in verse 5 in verse 23.-----------------------------------------------
[sup]
23[/sup] “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. [sup]24[/sup] For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [sup]25[/sup] See, I have told you beforehand.
[sup]26[/sup] “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. [sup]27[/sup] For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. [sup]28[/sup] For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
This is at the end of the age after the tribulation. The coming of Jesus

[sup]29[/sup] “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [sup]30[/sup] Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31[/sup] And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

]It's true the Romans destroyed Jerusalem, and the temple burned down before they could gain possession of it, but how is it they missed those huge stones of the Wailing Wall which still stand there today? With Christ's return on the day of The LORD, there won't be stone structures built by man standing anywhere upon the earth, for God's consuming fire and great shaking of this earth on that day will see to that, as written. And if the Jews today do build another temple today as planned, what will that do to theories of a 70 A.D. fulfillment? Those theories from men's doctrines will fall by the wayside.

It's been explained to you several times by more than just myself. That is the wall of the temple MOUND. On top was the plaza where the temple and out building stood.

If the Jews do build a temple it will never be Holy so their for it can never fulfill the prophesy. The temple at Jesus time was Holy until He declared it desolate Mt 23:38. A new temple will never be recognized by God as Holy simple because it is denying Christ. But I don't discount the possibility of it being constructed to fulfill the prophesy about the great falling away. To further lead people like yourself into the deception. God can not honer a temple that sacrifices bulls and goats as an atonement for sin. It over in Jesus Christ, that was but shadow of the things to come, which did come in Jesus. Ending the need for the shedding of blood of bulls and goats. Its simple 101 Christianity there can never be a Holy temple again that offers bulls and goats. Jesus sacrifice on the cross cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease. If you don't understand that principle then you need to return to Sunday school for a refresher course. A temple for sacrifice, from the laying of the very first stone would be an abomination to the work of Jesus. There for the oblations and sacrifices would never be accepted so they can't be see as being stopped, to fulfill these prophesy's.

Daniel 9:27 (ASV) "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate."

Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

 

[bud02]

Well, I never tell people what to believe. It is your right and your choice to be wrong.


Well, I believe in the Bible; whereas, you do not! Since the formation of Adam only goes back a bit over 6,000 years, the next fairy tale you will try to teach us [as truth] is that the earth is only 6,000 years old.

I have already stated my position on your earth age and the statements about Satan. I'm not going into detail here, if you want to start another thread about Satan just let me know when and where. I already know that people that continue to turn in circles rarely change their opinion. It's the people that read and compare, those are the ones that understand. It was the same as when Jesus spoke to the Pharisee's, they never did understand, but the people listening did.

But if you want to read about time and what we as people know about time and space read this link.
http://www.christian...-billion-years/
Its the first post I made here after reading the hack job you and others made in your believe about your earth age as an explanation for a 15 billion year old earth and dinosaurs ect. I won't twist the scripture to satisfy the understanding of an old earth verses 6000 years from the generation of Adam to today. But understanding something about time and how the expansion of the universe affected it supports the 6 day creation and satifys the age that science gives for the age at 15 billion years BOTH.
I see that Paul or one of the other mods removed my shortened version, but if you simple scroll down to

The creation of time. or Einstein's Law of Relativity.

You will be in the heart of the matter. Every thing leading up to this point is to give credit to his research, as to not have been contaminated by modern day understanding. He use a commentary on the TORA from hundreds of years ago instead of a commentary today where the writer knows of such scientific finding, that can possibly influence his writings. 500 years ago men had no clue about what Hubble and Einstein, or science would bring to the table.

Did you know that the term big bang was first coined by Hoyle "in the 40s If I remember correctly" an atheist scientist to make fun of creationist scientist.
[sup]3[/sup] Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.
Today all science knows that the big bang is an accepted fact. Thousands of text have been written about it. To take it a step farther we can use the information to discover that If you were observing the expansion of the universe from its origin that only 6 days have passed. But an identical clock placed in the cloud of gas that would latter become the earth; this identical clock would have tick off more than 15 billion years, I find that remarkable.

“But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

 

[veteran]

Look I'm not teaching Preterism, all I have been indicating is that Dan. 9-27 is Jesus not the AC. Now I don't know how you intend to fulfill your rendition of 9-27 as the AC or any of the other 2 references to abomination of desolation without a temple. But thats what your saying above.
The phrase "abomination of desolation" is found in three texts in the book of Danial.

Daniel 9:27 (ASV) "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate."

Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

The idea that the seven signs our Lord Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. is a doctrine from the seminary doctrine of Preterism. You've already show how you believe the Romans fulfilled the abomination of desolation prophecy Christ mentioned there, and the not one stone standing upon another event. Either those signs Christ gave are really for the end, which includes His second coming, or they aren't. And if they are not for the end, then you are forced to accept the Preterist doctrine that Christ's second coming is past also.

Those seven signs are linked to our Lord's Revelation events, even the seven seals of Rev.6. That's why Preterists also treat most of Revelation as already having been fulfilled also. That is what the 70th week prophecy hinges upon, because the events of that final "one week" in Daniel is linked to the working of the "vile person" in Dan.11, with the ending of sacrifices and the placing of the abomination that makes desolate. It is not enough to just look at Jerusalem after 70 A.D. and see no Jewish temple and immediately say those signs Christ gave have already been fulfilled, especially with the Jews today getting ready to build another temple in our times today.

And concerning just the Dan.9:27 verse, Christ did not confirm any covenant for a period of 7 years ("one week"), and then in the middle end sacrifices and set up an abomination in the temple for idol worship. THAT is the working of the AC, the "vile person" of Dan.11 that does that. Dan.11 and Dan.9:27 are hard linked as per that event. Instead, what did our Lord Jesus do at His first coming? He offerred the Jews the New Covenant and the bringiing of His Kingdom right then, but THEY rejected Him and had Him crucified so that His Kingdom manifesting there was put in abeyance. And so the New Covenant was then offerred to others instead. It did not end, but is still in effect for all who believe on Christ Jesus as The Son of God today. And now all Christians await Christ's Kingdom that will be a literal Kingdom upon this earth, at Jerusalem, for that's where He will return as written, but not meek as a Lamb slain this next time.

Here you go again putting words in my mouth, I never said that nor will I ever say that. This is something you start rambling about just as you did above. You dont need a temple, but some how the abomination will happen. Whether you realize it or not, what you have been taught has it's root in Dan. 9-27. Its the key to applying a 7 year trib to Revelation, and for most in your camp,----- all of Rev from chapter 5 on is entirely the last week or 7 years of Danial.

I'm following Bible Scripture straight on. But you've shown you follow men's doctrines of Historicism, which is also allied with men's doctrines of Preterism, for both those doctrines of men treat most, if not all of the signs given in Matt.24 as already fulfilled back in 70 A.D. by the Romans. Their attempt to apply Christ as the "he" of Dan.9:27 was created to give support for their doctrine that the signs Christ gave in Matt.24 were fulfilled at Christ's first coming. I'm showing you from Scripture just why you cannot separate the Dan.9:27 events from the events Christ gave about the end of this world leading up to His second coming. Now if you don't yet know all those doctrines of men that Historicism/Preterism proposes on that, then you haven't gotten the full gist of the lie they are teaching. It's main purpose is to get you to deny a future second coming of Christ, for that is the last sign He gave there in His Olivet discourse. That's what their twisting of Dan.9:27 is about, trying to separate its events from the vile person's acts of Dan.11, and from the pseudo Christ working Christ gave in Matt.24. That vile person will be the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place. It's about the 'dragon' or "another beast" of Rev.13 setting up an image of the beast for all the world to worship.

I dont deny that, but Danial 9-27 is not describing this person. 9-26 is simply describing who the people of this prince shall be. And the people of the prince who is to come. Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the people of this prince to come, destroying the temple. In Mathew 24 the disciples asked what will be the signs of your coming at the end of the AGE. after He declared the temple desolate, and said not one stone will be left on another. I'm going to go threw the whole picture from the end of 23 to the end of 24.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

I spoke of 'blueprint' or pattern fulfillments of the abomination of desolation before, which is not the final fulfillment Christ was giving from the Book of Daniel. We know that because of what Antiochus did back in 165 B.C. We're to keep looking for the actual fulfillment. That prince and the people is not about Christ. Per Dan.11, which is linked to that Dan.9 prophecy, it's about the "vile person" that is to come, with armies standing on his part that will end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate. You need to keep studying to the end of Daniel, instead just wanting to stop at that Dan.9 chapter.

I've already show how that Greek word for "world" in Matt.24:3 must be linked to the time of Christ's second coming which was part of their question, and that's how one determines the interpretation of that word, which has several applications in God's Word, not just the idea of a 'era' like how Historicists and Preterists would like to apply it to make it fit their doctrine.

Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
(KJV)

It's been explained to you several times by more than just myself. That is the wall of the temple MOUND. On top was the plaza where the temple and out building stood.

What you're missing is that those events prior to our Lord's mention of a great tribulation have tribulation events in them too, specifically about the vile person as that pseudochristos ("false Christs") that is to come working great signs and wonders on the earth to deceive the whole world with. Like I said, those seven signs our Lord Jesus gave there are the seven seals of Revelation 6. I've already covered that Matt.24 chapter line upon line here once before to show all that.


The rest of your post is the actual 'rambling' you say.

 

[bud02]

The idea that the seven signs our Lord Jesus gave upon the Mount of Olives in Matt.24 and Mark 13 was fulfilled in 70 A.D. is a doctrine from the seminary doctrine of Preterism. You've already show how you believe the Romans fulfilled the abomination of desolation prophecy Christ mentioned there, and the not one stone standing upon another event. Either those signs Christ gave are really for the end, which includes His second coming, or they aren't. And if they are not for the end, then you are forced to accept the Preterist doctrine that Christ's second coming is past also.

I posted the end of chapter 23, and your entire Olivet discourse from Mathew. I explained the whole time line. Now you want to talk about seven signs without addressing one single item from the text I posted. That in and of its self speaks volumes. You like watchman just want to keep talking in circles without dealing with what I said. Kicking sand on my post in effect and rambling on about some other point.

The tribulation starts with the destruction of the temple, its still going on today. THE AGE. An age is NOT THE 7 YEARS. 7 years is not an age. Can you give me some evidence that 7 years is an age? What I have seen from your evidence is that in some cases you only see one verse, instead of the whole context. In others you find it impossible to separate one event from another. In short for you, all events are speaking of the 7 year trib, yet future. You continue to call me a preterist which I"m not. Pointing out that this view IN TOTALITY was introduced by the catholic church. In totality means all those things you accuse me of saying, that I never did say or never will. Like denying the second coming of Christ, because it has accured that's Preterism or accusing me of saying Titus was the AC. At the same time you continue to eat the bate of Futurism, the changing of Danial 9-27 to be the AC and the last week of Danial, being future instead of being fulfilled in Jesus. This is the teaching of the RCC also they wanted to kill history and say every thing was completed in the past, or that everything is yet future. I don't subscribe to ether I'm concerned with the truth. You on the other hand can only think in the complete form of ether or. Your ether preturest or futurest nether are correct, and both were founded at the time of the reformatiom, known as the counter reformation launched by the catholic church.

What you're missing is that those events prior to our Lord's mention of a great tribulation have tribulation events in them too, specifically about the vile person as that pseudochristos ("false Christs") that is to come working great signs and wonders on the earth to deceive the whole world with. Like I said, those seven signs our Lord Jesus gave there are the seven seals of Revelation 6. I've already covered that Matt.24 chapter line upon line here once before to show all that.

What is clear is you don't read my post. I explained the whole thing pointing out in every step the different times and events.

I never said the vile person has come and Danial does not say that ether. It says the temple will be destroyed and the people of THE PRINCE TO COME< "the vile person". His people will destroy the temple. I dont think that the General Titus or Nero was that vile person I believe he is yet to be reviled. The son of perdition.

 

[bud02]

Here you go veteran nothing quite like pictures to make things clear

The Dome of the rock, sitting on the temple mound

------------------------WEST SIDE------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------EAST SIDE---------------------------------------------------

-----------------The 4 red squares is the western whaling wall location.


As you can see the waling wall is behind and down from the Dome of the Rock "top Photo". They pray at the retaining wall of the temple plaza



On top of this wall is ground level for the old temple and the current Dome of the rock.
See the big wall in this photo its the waling wall, Western wall. On the EAST side in the top photo you can see the walls Eastern side.
I believe they gather here because it is the closest point to the temple mound they can assemble, without causing a war.

 

[veteran]

I posted the end of chapter 23, and your entire Olivet discourse from Mathew. I explained the whole time line. Now you want to talk about seven signs without addressing one single item from the text I posted. That in and of its self speaks volumes. You like watchman just want to keep talking in circles without dealing with what I said. Kicking sand on my post in effect and rambling on about some other point.

Not my Olivet discourse, but Christ's Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives.

Your presentation of Matt.24 promotes a false timeline. Here's why...

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus did not say part of those signs would be fulfilled over several generations. He said that generation which sees those things will not pass "till all these things be fulfilled". That means from the START of the signs He gave in Matt.24:3 all the way to verse 31, the last sign being about His second coming and our gathering to Him. ALL those signs are to be fulfilled in the generation of His second coming!

SO ONCE AGAIN, I have shown you, what, three or four times already, that ALL those signs He gave are about the LAST GENERATION on earth when Christ returns. Our Lord Jesus was not showing some signs to be fulfilled in 70 A.D., and other signs to be fulfilled over a period of 2000 years. He was speaking of the last generation, the final generation on earth. The generation that will SEE His second coming in the clouds with glory!

The rest of you post, including the sad tirade against the Catholic Church, is just more of the "rambling" you try to accuse me of. Whatever the RCC did in supporting Hitler's Germany against Jews in WWII, you need to try and get over it. It's history, WWII is over. It has nothing to do with our present discussion, for the RCC didn't yet exist at the time when Christ gave those signs upon the Mount of Olives.

I never said the vile person has come and Danial does not say that ether. It says the temple will be destroyed and the people of THE PRINCE TO COME< "the vile person". His people will destroy the temple. I dont think that the General Titus or Nero was that vile person I believe he is yet to be reviled. The son of perdition.

No, what you've said indirectly infers that our Lord Jesus is the "vile person" of Dan.11. You probably don't realize that's what it means to treat that "he" of Dan.9:27 as being our Lord Jesus, when that "he" is actually about the "vile person" of Dan.11 that places the abomination of desolation, and makes a "league", which is what confirming a covenant of Dan.9:27 is about.

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Dan.11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

For the "he" of Dan.9:27 to be about Christ Jesus, then so would those Dan.11 Scriptures have to be about our Lord Jesus. But that just AIN'T SO! The Dan.11 "vile person" is not our Lord Jesus, and neither is that "he" of Dan.9:27 that sets up a league, and then causes the end of the sacrifice and daily oblation and then places the abomination that makes desolate.

The word "abomination" of Dan.9:27 is shiqquts, and is about a detestable idol.

Rev 13:13-15
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)

To infer Christ had something to do with placing that abomination that makes desolate is pretty close to blasphemy. And that's the dangerous ground those who declare the "he" of Dan.9:27 is about Christ are treading upon. I don't want to think that you intend to blaspheme Christ, but rather that you've been raised in a tradition of man that you can't yet see is a lie.

 

[242006]

I have already stated my position on your earth age and the statements about Satan. I'm not going into detail here, if you want to start another thread about Satan just let me know when and where. I already know that people that continue to turn in circles rarely change their opinion. It's the people that read and compare, those are the ones that understand. It was the same as when Jesus spoke to the Pharisee's, they never did understand, but the people listening did.

O.K. -- I missed it if you stated your position. I was just replying to your post in which you [falsely] claimed that I did not present my positions.

But if you want to read about time and what we as people know about time and space read this link.
http://www.christian...-billion-years/

I don't waste time on those who do not understand Bible and are not here for correction. Are you here for correction or only to promote the drivel you believe in??

Its the first post I made here after reading the hack job you and others made in your believe about your earth age as an explanation for a 15 billion year old earth and dinosaurs ect. I won't twist the scripture to satisfy the understanding of an old earth verses 6000 years from the generation of Adam to today. But understanding something about time and how the expansion of the universe affected it supports the 6 day creation and satifys the age that science gives for the age at 15 billion years BOTH.

Consider this before you coin the Bible a "hack job". How long is each of the creation days of Gen. 1?? For those that claim that each was 24-hours, the conclusion drawn therefrom is a 6k year old earth. If you claim that each creation day is many hundreds of millions of years, then, for those who believe that Adam was created on the 6th day, we would still be in the 7th day of rest and mankind would be hundreds of millions of years on this planet. There is no human skeleton in existence over 8,000 years old -- seems to prove that a creation [reformation] day could not be that long.

The 7th day of rest was given for man's benefit in more ways than taught. It gives assurance to the true Bible student that each of the creation days are, indeed, 1000 years long as set forth in 2 Pet. 3, with the prolonged and extensive 1st age preceding the 6 days of creation [reformation] in Gen. 1.

 

[bud02]

Not my Olivet discourse, but Christ's Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives.

Your presentation of Matt.24 promotes a false timeline. Here's why...

Matt 24:32-37
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but My Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus did not say part of those signs would be fulfilled over several generations. He said that generation which sees those things will not pass "till all these things be fulfilled". That means from the START of the signs He gave in Matt.24:3 all the way to verse 31, the last sign being about His second coming and our gathering to Him. ALL those signs are to be fulfilled in the generation of His second coming!

SO ONCE AGAIN, I have shown you, what, three or four times already, that ALL those signs He gave are about the LAST GENERATION on earth when Christ returns. Our Lord Jesus was not showing some signs to be fulfilled in 70 A.D., and other signs to be fulfilled over a period of 2000 years. He was speaking of the last generation, the final generation on earth. The generation that will SEE His second coming in the clouds with glory!

The rest of you post, including the sad tirade against the Catholic Church, is just more of the "rambling" you try to accuse me of. Whatever the RCC did in supporting Hitler's Germany against Jews in WWII, you need to try and get over it. It's history, WWII is over. It has nothing to do with our present discussion, for the RCC didn't yet exist at the time when Christ gave those signs upon the Mount of Olives.



No, what you've said indirectly infers that our Lord Jesus is the "vile person" of Dan.11. You probably don't realize that's what it means to treat that "he" of Dan.9:27 as being our Lord Jesus, when that "he" is actually about the "vile person" of Dan.11 that places the abomination of desolation, and makes a "league", which is what confirming a covenant of Dan.9:27 is about.

Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.
23 And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.
24 He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: yea, and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Dan.11:30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.
(KJV)

For the "he" of Dan.9:27 to be about Christ Jesus, then so would those Dan.11 Scriptures have to be about our Lord Jesus. But that just AIN'T SO! The Dan.11 "vile person" is not our Lord Jesus, and neither is that "he" of Dan.9:27 that sets up a league, and then causes the end of the sacrifice and daily oblation and then places the abomination that makes desolate.

The word "abomination" of Dan.9:27 is shiqquts, and is about a detestable idol.

Rev 13:13-15
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)

To infer Christ had something to do with placing that abomination that makes desolate is pretty close to blasphemy. And that's the dangerous ground those who declare the "he" of Dan.9:27 is about Christ are treading upon. I don't want to think that you intend to blaspheme Christ, but rather that you've been raised in a tradition of man that you can't yet see is a lie.

I see now you use a parable to discredit the clear teaching of Jesus. Lets just say we don't agree. I told you that I believed "your term vile person" was the son of perdition. Found in 9-26, not 9-27. and trying to accuse me of calling Jesus the vile person, please. I notice your quotes are from the Darby version of the bible. It is a futurist interpretation supporting your claim.

Like I said you just wear me out, it seams you can't resist misquoting me and I won't reply to your misquotes any longer.

Did you enjoy the pictures? can you now understand that the wall you see on the news is not part of the old Temple. Perhaps when you have a better understanding of history and fundamentals it will be easier for us to talk. From your post below here it is clear you don't know what the reformation was, or when. When have I spoken of WWII?

The rest of you post, including the sad tirade against the Catholic Church, is just more of the "rambling" you try to accuse me of. Whatever the RCC did in supporting Hitler's Germany against Jews in WWII, you need to try and get over it. It's history, WWII is over. It has nothing to do with our present discussion, for the RCC didn't yet exist at the time when Christ gave those signs upon the Mount of Olives.

 

[veteran]

I see now you use a parable to discredit the clear teaching of Jesus. Lets just say we don't agree. I told you that I believed "your term vile person" was the son of perdition. Found in 9-26, not 9-27. and trying to accuse me of calling Jesus the vile person, please. I notice your quotes are from the Darby version of the bible. It is a futurist interpretation supporting your claim.

You're simply not being sincere with the Scriptures. I quoted straight from the 1611 KJV Bible. Darby version?, now that is funny. Evidently you don't even know what the (KJV) abbreviation means! And I didn't know Darby was living in 1611.

And no, I'm not of the Darbyites, nor Scofield's, etc. I'm a Post-trib believer of Christ's second coming. Nor am I a Futurist, not anymore than God's prophets were who were given prophecy that didn't happen in their days, but was for way in their future. Just because a prophecy has a future fulfillment does not make one a Futurist. I also agree there was prophecy that was fulfilled and is past, so does that make me a Preterist or Historicist? Of course not. If one follows God's Word as written, they will find prophecy events past, present, and future. If they deny there is no more future prophecy then that is to say that all of God's Word has already been fulfilled today which would be a lie, for it's obvious Christ's second coming has not happenned yet, nor the end of this world as prophesied.

So I didn't use our Lord's parable in Matt.24, that part I quoted from our Lord was HIS teaching on the generation that is to see all those signs He gave. We cannot just omit that part of Christ's Olivet discourse upon the Mount of Olives, for it sets the timeline of "these things" He was declaring. That's why those signs He gave are connected with the events of His Revelation He gave through His Apostle John. And that's why He also connected them with the abomination prophecy from the Book of Daniel, which also is connected with events in Revelation, and even in Ezekiel 38-39.

The events of Dan.9:27 are about the events of the "vile person" in Dan.11. That's about the abomination idol setup by the vile person, of which Antiochus served as a pattern. The Romans in 70 A.D. also serve as a type, but not as good an example as Antiochus Epiphanes did. Yet Christ gave that abomination prophecy from Daniel long after Antiochus had been dead. The Romans did not fulfill it because the temple burned down. The abomination prophecy still expecting. But per your doctrine, it says it happenned with the Romans, which implies the false Christ event has already happenned.

Like I said you just wear me out, it seams you can't resist misquoting me and I won't reply to your misquotes any longer.

I haven't misquoted you. You stated you didn't believe the vile person of Dan.11 is about our Lord Jesus. Good, I don't either, it's common sense. But to assign Christ as the "he" of Dan.9:27 is not common sense, for that also is about the "vile person" of Dan.11. It's more like your claim of being misquoted is an attempt to backpedal.

Did you enjoy the pictures? can you now understand that the wall you see on the news is not part of the old Temple. Perhaps when you have a better understanding of history and fundamentals it will be easier for us to talk. From your post below here it is clear you don't know what the reformation was, or when. When have I spoken of WWII?

I know the Western Wall was not a wall of the old temple. It's the fact that Western Wall was standing in that area of the temple complex when Jesus said not one stone will be standing on top of another that matters, for He was speaking of the time of His return with a great earthquake in that area, even with the Mount of Olives splitting in two, half to the north and half to the south, with a great valley formed there running east to west (Zech.14). That has NEVER happenned to this day. And to show His disciples understood that's the timing and event He meant, they then asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world, meaning the literal end of this present world. He then gave seven signs that lead up to His return on the day of The LORD, and then sealed its timing with what He taught about the fig tree parable and last generation that would see those signs coming to pass. It's very simple really.