Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

[Xanderoc]

Whereas, I concur with you regarding Catholics, I certainly disagree with your analysis of Dan. 9. It appears that your prejudice is clouding your judgment

No, I agree with bud, concerning Dan 9:27. People have used this scripture and only this scripture to prove the 7 year tribulation period. Through out the bible you can read the time line of 31/2 years. Not one place states 7 years. That is an interpretation of man. The fact of the matter is, Dan 9: 27 has nothing to do with the tribulation period!!! The last seven years of the 70 weeks has nothing to do with tribulation. When Christ came He taught Israel for 31/2 years then died. He started His ministry at age 30. Then sacrifice and oblation ceased. Meaning no more need for sacrifice. He was our final sacrifice. After the tribulation the Lord will have Israel gathered unto to Him in the wilderness, and will teach them again face to face for the final 31/2 years, rooting out the rebels, completing the 70 week prophecy. I will give all the scripture to proof my statement at another time.

 

[242006]

for simplicity I use "Jew" I am aware of your point, it is impossible for me or you to profess all the details of understanding on a subject in a single post Is you had read them all you would have already seen that I have and do you the term house of Israel. Can I just say your statement is straining at nats and swallowing camels.
Others that my read this with less back ground will certainly know the term Jew, today it is a word that has become rather broad in both its use and meaning.

In actuality, by using the term "Jew" [for simplicity], you demonstrate your complete negligence of the topic at hand and your total lack of understanding of who all comprise 'Israel'. Even today, ignorant Jews try to proclaim that they are the 'chosen people', with no regard to the fact that the Abrahamic covenant passed on with the seed of Joseph -- not Judah.

I understand that there are those claiming to be "Jew" by way of religion, but are not Jewish by race. However, it is wholly inappropriate to confine the prophecy of Dan. 9 to the tribe of Judah only. Furthermore, the prophecy has not nothing whatsoever to do with the Jewish religion. If you read 9:20 with clarity, Daniel was praying for his 'people Israel' -- not the OT Israelite religion that, today, is only carried on by the Jews and their proselytes.

Like I said you really dont need the time, what you really need to determine is when Jesus received the tile, Messiah.

The vision is given from Gabriel -- not Daniel. Surely, God knows when Jesus received the title 'Messiah'. So, do we -- it was given in the first age -- long before he was placed in Mary's womb. The plan for the Messiah was decided upon before this age began. See Acts 3:20, Rev. 12:4. Hence, Jesus was always the Messiah: and, nothing that John the Baptist did in Baptizing Jesus made Jesus the Messiah. Besides, baptizing is not the same as 'anointing'. Your attempt to link the baptism of Jesus to this prophecy is way off the mark. I already proved, in a prior post, that the wording 'anoint the most Holy' is not speaking of Christ. Your entire theory is premised upon your fatally-flawed understanding of that phrase.

I replace the 360 day year statement vs solar year with a link to a site that supports futurism, follow the link and scroll down a bit you can read about it. From 457 with straight day = solar year you end up at 27 AD no fancy math just simple addition.

I didn't bother with it since you are not claiming that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD concluded the vision. God certainly knows how long a year is, if mankind does not.

 

[242006]

No, I agree with bud, concerning Dan 9:27. People have used this scripture and only this scripture to prove the 7 year tribulation period. Through out the bible you can read the time line of 31/2 years. Not one place states 7 years. That is an interpretation of man. The fact of the matter is, Dan 9: 27 has nothing to do with the tribulation period!!! The last seven years of the 70 weeks has nothing to do with tribulation. When Christ came He taught Israel for 31/2 years then died. He started His ministry at age 30. Then sacrifice and oblation ceased. Meaning no more need for sacrifice. He was our final sacrifice. After the tribulation the Lord will have Israel gathered unto to Him in the wilderness, and will teach them again face to face for the final 31/2 years, rooting out the rebels, completing the 70 week prophecy. I will give all the scripture to proof my statement at another time.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion; however, the Bible does not support your position. If you read Dan. 9:27, you will see that the one week [= 7 years] is divided into two halves. So, if you read the time line of 3 1/2 years elsewhere, you have confirmation as one of the two halves of the 70th week of Dan. 9.

You and bud02 could not be more in error regarding the 70th week.

Though there is support for your theory on the setting of the cessation of the sacrifice and oblation clause in 9:27 to the crucifixion day [specifically set forth that way in Dan. 12:11], you have only assumed there is only one scenario applicable therefore. If you examine the words 'sacrifice' and 'oblation' in Hebrew, you will see that nothing therein locks them into the sole meaning of the sacrifice of animals [an OT practice under the Law]. They are general words, which could equally be applicable in the church era, for the tithes, donations, and gifts folks give to their churches. In fact, since both the Dan. 9 and 12 visions are given by God and since God uses the word rendered as 'daily' in 12:11 instead of ''sacrifice' and 'oblation' in 9:27, the Bible student can conclude that God is speaking of two different times.

Since the manuscripts provide for the wording 'sacrifice' and 'oblation' to be equally applicable to the church era, then one can also consider a scenario in which such donations/tithes/gifts would cease. Of course, that time would be when Satan, the antichrist, is kicked out of heaven to the earth during the endtime tribulation time.

 

[Paul]

I never cited "get thee behind me" as the basis for Satan's removal from walking "to and fro". Nonetheless, Satan, like the fallen angels, are all in heaven now, despite it being unclear in scripture as to how they were called back.

It is a good topic, and central to this topic too. If I am not mistaken, bud02 is trying to argue that Rev. 12 [casting out of heaven] has already taken place and, thereby, it supports his 70th week theory.

Well the war mentioned in Revelation 12, did happen in the first earth age. He is still going to and fro. There is a time coming when Satan will no longer be able to get back into heaven. I haven't read most of bud's posts so don't really know what he says about it.

 

[bud02]

In actuality, by using the term "Jew" [for simplicity], you demonstrate your complete negligence of the topic at hand and your total lack of understanding of who all comprise 'Israel'. Even today, ignorant Jews try to proclaim that they are the 'chosen people', with no regard to the fact that the Abrahamic covenant passed on with the seed of Joseph -- not Judah.

I understand that there are those claiming to be "Jew" by way of religion, but are not Jewish by race. However, it is wholly inappropriate to confine the prophecy of Dan. 9 to the tribe of Judah only. Furthermore, the prophecy has not nothing whatsoever to do with the Jewish religion. If you read 9:20 with clarity, Daniel was praying for his 'people Israel' -- not the OT Israelite religion that, today, is only carried on by the Jews and their proselytes.

From scripture it is the the people under the title Judea. The Northerner was under the title Israel. Judea went into Babylon. By referring to them as Jews is to use the tile that was given them by Ahijah, kings 11:30 / 11: [sup]31[/sup] And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you [sup]32[/sup] (but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel),

11-37 So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel.
12-[sup]19[/sup] So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

The vision is given from Gabriel -- not Daniel. Surely, God knows when Jesus received the title 'Messiah'. So, do we -- it was given in the first age -- long before he was placed in Mary's womb. The plan for the Messiah was decided upon before this age began. See Acts 3:20, Rev. 12:4. Hence, Jesus was always the Messiah: and, nothing that John the Baptist did in Baptizing Jesus made Jesus the Messiah. Besides, baptizing is not the same as 'anointing'. Your attempt to link the baptism of Jesus to this prophecy is way off the mark. I already proved, in a prior post, that the wording 'anoint the most Holy' is not speaking of Christ. Your entire theory is premised upon your fatally-flawed understanding of that phrase.

So this was just another day at the Jordan river?
[sup]16[/sup] When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[sup][c][/sup] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. [sup]17[/sup] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

I didn't bother with it since you are not claiming that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD concluded the vision. God certainly knows how long a year is, if mankind does not.

The vision went on pointing into the future. The 70 weeks are cut out of time. It is never cut after it is presented. Verse 26 says the Messiah shall be cut off nothing indicating the time or the last 7 years was stopped or replaced or cut.

From 26 - And till the end of the war desolations are determined. ...............the war is still going on, as I pointed out above, verse 26 is open ended and the last line of 26 indicates just that. Gabriel just indicates the mark in time After the 62 weeks 27 then offers details about the last week that you can see apply to Jesus not the AC. The only thing cut off the 70 weeks was Messiah, That did not stop the time allotted for the Jews. What it means is salvation was available to the entire house of Israel ALONE for 3.5 years after the cross. Then salvation threw Jesus went out to all the Nations of the earth, just as it was promised to Abraham. Just as it was promised by Gabriel. 70 weeks are determined for your people and your holy city. Its not a curse or an ending of the Jews its simply the fulfillment of Gods word. The 70 weeks was theirs and theirs alone it ended 3.5 years after the cross and then the fulfillment of the promise became available to all the world.

Well the war mentioned in Revelation 12, did happen in the first earth age. He is still going to and fro. There is a time coming when Satan will no longer be able to get back into heaven. I haven't read most of bud's posts so don't really know what he says about it.

Here is the first Rev reply
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89036

the second in more detail
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89053

The only reason I went on to comment on Rev 12 is because watchman insist on moving the topic to another point like he is now doing with the lost tribes.

I;ll ask one question. If all authority in Heaven was given to Christ when He accented, do you think He is going to allow the accuser before Him if He has already intervened for all mans sins? Allow Satan to accuse the forgiven in Christ. If He does, and you believe this. He never had a victory. His over coming was pointless, and without power. For those that have an ear to hear, John has assured us that victory has taken place, the accuser cast out at the time Jesus was seated in heaven. . Rev 12

Luke 10-[sup]18[/sup] And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
John 12-[sup]31[/sup] Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. cast out of heaven rev 12-7

 

[242006]

Well the war mentioned in Revelation 12, did happen in the first earth age. He is still going to and fro. There is a time coming when Satan will no longer be able to get back into heaven. I haven't read most of bud's posts so don't really know what he says about it.

No -- the Revelation 12 war in heaven is yet to come. Satan is not going to and fro at this time.

 

[Paul]

No -- the Revelation 12 war in heaven is yet to come. Satan is not going to and fro at this time.

You can think what you want W, but I know better.

 

[242006]

You can think what you want W, but I know better.

Of course, the same can be said to you.

 

[bud02]

No -- the Revelation 12 war in heaven is yet to come. Satan is not going to and fro at this time.

[sup]6[/sup] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[sup][b][/sup] also came among them. [sup]7[/sup] And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
[sup]8[/sup] Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

As Job indicates Satan was going to and fro threw the earth. But as we can see he was going to and fro from earth to heaven also.
Now he is just fro on earth no access to heaven Thanks to Jesus. That why we see the warning to the inhabitants of the earth ....Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Jesus said it is finished at the cross Satan was completely defeated. He is now on earth and locked out of heaven, and today he searches for whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5-8 Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. But can you imagine how angry he was on that day? He crushed Jerusalem and all its inhabitants, persecuted the saints. Up until about 370 -400 AD when the Catholic church became the official church of the Roman empire. We can see a change of tactics in Rev

12-[sup]16[/sup] But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. [sup]17[/sup] And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.Rev

He turned from the woman Israel and went after her offspring. God does not separate Israel from the Gentiles. And these are the only 2 points I make about history and Revelation, pay attention watchman. There are two 1260 day pieces of time. One for the woman and one for the beast. I believe the woman came out of the wilderness at the time of the reformation. As always the dates are always open for debate. But the RCC came to be the exclusive Roman religion in about 360 to 400 AD they literally moved right into the old Greek pant-ion they didn't even bother to remove the statues of the other gods. 1260 latter you come to the reformation. The early history and the demise of the Roman empire is so cloudy with dates and historians its a mess. But you can see the true sons of God rising up from under the tent of the RCC. Thats the turning point of the faith you know today, with out it we would all be sitting in one church called the RCC. The beast was also given 1260 years in 538 AD the papist received full power, now this is a very clear date as is 1260 years latter,,,, 1798 changed Europe. In 538 the pope had full militarily power now, yet they already had christian religion under control. 1260 years latter Napoleons general remove the pope from office and not a peep of protest was heard from the kings of Europe that followed the beast. After WWI not a one was left except the British Crown. Rome the RCC has never regained her power as it was before that time in 1798. But the beasts head that was wounded has healed since 1798, Thanks to darby in the 1830's, and today she has again spun a deceptive web covering her history, and reinterpreting the bible. The echos from the reformers are forgotten in the church today the very people that risked and gave their lives so we could have a protestant church are long forgotten. THAT IS ALL I have to say about Rev and History. But to get here where I am at you must properly interpret DANIAL 9-24/27. The rest of Rev I am open for discussion on. But that is my historic view that you so fondly and in error call preterism. God has not been silent in providing rev and prophesy for that last 2000 years but the catholic church is glad to here everything is still yet to take place in the FUTURE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION -------- the root is in the miss handling of Gabriels prophesy in Danial 9.

I have studied Danial 9 more than any other chapter in the bible by 100s of times. I believe Danial 9:24 - 27 may be the most important 4 verses in the bible concerning the church today. Had the HOUSE OF ISRAEL paid attention they would have know exactly when and what the Messiah was all about. The time of His coming and the mission. Whether you want to admit it or not,,,,,,,, changing he in verse 27 from Messiah to Anti-Christ, or cutting off the last week and applying it to a future 7 year tribulation, both find their way back to mystery Babylon, the counter reformation. ONE VERSE !!!!!! its like a virus in your computer ONE VERSE will cause it to crash. Its like leaven in bread a little bit causes the whole loaf to rise. You know the verses about the unleavened bread now open your eyes and see it for yourself. I'm not trying to interpret Rev for you, I'm trying to get people to understand Danial 9 24-27. so then they can understand for themselves.


Matthew 24:24 IFor false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. [sup]25[/sup] See, I have told you beforehand.

 

[242006]

From scripture it is the the people under the title Judea. The Northerner was under the title Israel. Judea went into Babylon. By referring to them as Jews is to use the tile that was given them by Ahijah, kings 11:30 / 11: [sup]31[/sup] And he said to Jeroboam, “Take for yourself ten pieces, for thus says the LORD, the God of Israel: ‘Behold, I will tear the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon and will give ten tribes to you [sup]32[/sup] (but he shall have one tribe for the sake of My servant David, and for the sake of Jerusalem, the city which I have chosen out of all the tribes of Israel),

11-37 So I will take you, and you shall reign over all your heart desires, and you shall be king over Israel.
12-[sup]19[/sup] So Israel has been in rebellion against the house of David to this day.

The term 'Judea' refers to the nation after the split, which comprised of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin only. The term 'Jew' refers to the tribe of Judah or the inhabitants of Judea only. Never does the term 'Jew' refer to all twelve tribes. Conversely, the term 'Israel' refers to the seedline of Jacob, which is all 12 tribes, or the 10 northern tribes, after the split.

Hence, your position is nonsense. Daniel specifically was addressing the people "Israel" -- not the tribe of Judah or the inhabitants of Judea. Daniel was praying for all 12 tribes.

So this was just another day at the Jordan river?

Aren't you trying to correlate Jesus' baptism to 9:24 ". . . . and to anoint the most Holy"?


If so, the word "anoint" is not the same as 'baptism'.

[sup]16[/sup] When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He[sup][c][/sup] saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. [sup]17[/sup] And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

So, is it your position that Jesus was not the Messiah/Son of God before He was baptized?? If so, you blaspheme!

The vision went on pointing into the future. The 70 weeks are cut out of time. It is never cut after it is presented. Verse 26 says the Messiah shall be cut off nothing indicating the time or the last 7 years was stopped or replaced or cut.

This is another fatal flaw in your reasoning/understanding. The 70 weeks are not cut out of time, but speak to the totality of time [flesh dispensation] for the temple mount in Jerusalem as well as the 12 tribes of Israel. Try reading the scripture again -

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon . . .

The word 'determined' -

H2852

חתך

châthak

A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.

<P dir=ltr>It is an official decree from God, Himself. The etymology of the word is to 'cut OFF' -- not 'cut OUT', as you contend. The 70 weeks speak to the end of Israel and the temple mount. That is why there is a gap in time from the 69th to the 70th week.

From 26 - And till the end of the war desolations are determined. ...............the war is still going on, as I pointed out above, verse 26 is open ended and the last line of 26 indicates just that. Gabriel just indicates the mark in time After the 62 weeks 27 then offers details about the last week that you can see apply to Jesus not the AC. The only thing cut off the 70 weeks was Messiah, That did not stop the time allotted for the Jews. What it means is salvation was available to the entire house of Israel ALONE for 3.5 years after the cross. Then salvation threw Jesus went out to all the Nations of the earth, just as it was promised to Abraham. Just as it was promised by Gabriel. 70 weeks are determined for your people and your holy city. Its not a curse or an ending of the Jews its simply the fulfillment of Gods word. The 70 weeks was theirs and theirs alone it ended 3.5 years after the cross and then the fulfillment of the promise became available to all the world.

Look at some of the 5 items that are supposed to be fully determined [completed] in 9:24 and how that can ever jive with your theory.

First item -. . . to finish the transgression . . . .

'Finish' means -

H3607

כּלא

kaw-law'

A primitive root; to restrict, by act (hold back or in) or word (prohibit): - finish, forbid, keep (back), refrain, restrain, retain, shut up, be stayed, withhold.

Nothing therein your theory explains how, at the end of your 70 weeks, transgression is restricted/prohibited.

. . . to make an end of sins . . .

'End' means -

H2856

חתם

châtham

khaw-tham'

A primitive root; to close up; especially to seal: - make an end, mark, seal (up), stop.

Your theory does not identify how sin is ended for all time after your 70th week.

. . . to seal up the vision and prophecy . . .

'Seal up' is the same as 'end' above.

Nothing therein your theory explains how there is no more vision and prophecy for the people of Israel and the temple mount after 70 weeks.

In fact, you, indirectly, admit ["verse 26 is open ended"] that people will continue to sin and transgress, and the vision and prophecy for Israel and the temple mount, will continue on long after your 70 weeks is finished. Well, such admission is also a tacit admission that the vision is longer than 70 weeks, which, in turn, makes God and Gabriel liars.

Either there is a gap in time between the 69th and 70th week, where the 70th week addresses the last years of this flesh dispensation of time, or God is a liar, per your theory. I would surmise that most every Bible-believing Christian would go with the gap in time rather than support your theory which leaves them with the conclusion that God is a liar.

 

[bud02]

The term 'Judea' refers to the nation after the split, which comprised of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin only. The term 'Jew' refers to the tribe of Judah or the inhabitants of Judea only. Never does the term 'Jew' refer to all twelve tribes. Conversely, the term 'Israel' refers to the seedline of Jacob, which is all 12 tribes, or the 10 northern tribes, after the split.

Hence, your position is nonsense. Daniel specifically was addressing the people "Israel" -- not the tribe of Judah or the inhabitants of Judea. Daniel was praying for all 12 tribes.

Watchman we all imply that the reader has a foundational understanding. Of course it was for all Israel.

Aren't you trying to correlate Jesus' baptism to 9:24 ". . . . and to anoint the most Holy"?


If so, the word "anoint" is not the same as 'baptism'.



So, is it your position that Jesus was not the Messiah/Son of God before He was baptized?? If so, you blaspheme!

The very word Messiah means anointed. If you believe Jesus was the Messiah just when was He anointed? when Mary anointed his feet He became the Messiah?
He was anointed with the Holy Spirit.

This is another fatal flaw in your reasoning/understanding. The 70 weeks are not cut out of time, but speak to the totality of time [flesh dispensation] for the temple mount in Jerusalem as well as the 12 tribes of Israel. Try reading the scripture again -

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon . . .

The word 'determined' -

H2852

חתך

châthak

A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree: - determine.

<P dir=ltr>It is an official decree from God, Himself. The etymology of the word is to 'cut OFF' -- not 'cut OUT', as you contend. The 70 weeks speak to the end of Israel and the temple mount. That is why there is a gap in time from the 69th to the 70th week.

I tried my best to give you something visual like the log I described. lets say the whole log is time from beginning to end say from the creation to the end of Rev. Gabriel châthak cut off, 70 weeks, he then tells us just when in time it began the point where he cut. From the command to rebuild, thats the beginning. to the Messiah there will be 7+62 weeks, now thats not a cut its a mark. on a log thats been cut 70 inches long, A mark 69 inches from the beginning to Messiah. He uses this mark in 26 “ And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; looking at a log on the ground that has been cut 70 inches long with both ends of the tree still extending from each end of the cut. The visual is the tree is on the ground Gabriel has cut a 70 inch section out of it. He then goes to the beginning the first cut and says from the command to restore walking toward the second cut to messiah, we can see the last week is the Messiah, 69 inches. from there he says, from this point a mark ,he says, after the 62nd week Messiah shall be cut off. We know that happened within the 70th week but at this point he also adds the destruction of the temple in 70 AD. which is just beyond the cut. Read it carefully I am not miss quoting or trying to pull a fast one I'm just reading it as is is written. from the from the 69 th week mark looking forward Messiah will be cut off and the temple destroyed.Verse 27 the details the last inch and also tells more about what happens after the cut.

[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks[sup][a][/sup] are determined ...............Gabriel maks the two cuts 70 inches long
For your people and for your holy city, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To finish the transgression, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
To make an end of[sup][b][/sup] sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,
That from the going forth of the command
To restore and build Jerusalem
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the first cut
Until Messiah the Prince,
There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; 69 weeks between these two points
The street[sup][c][/sup] shall be built again, and the wall,
Even in troublesome times.
[sup]
26[/sup] “ And after the sixty-two weeks
_____________________________69 weeks between first cut and this mark___this is the mark looking forward
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; ...........................Which includes or looks beyond the next cut
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; ..........................detail of the last week
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>This is the cut Gabriel made the end of 70
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, ...........................after the cut beyond the 70 weeks.
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

The rest is just basic understanding of the completed work of Jesus.
There is now no condemnation for those found in Christ Jesus.

 

[Paul]

No -- the Revelation 12 war in heaven is yet to come. Satan is not going to and fro at this time.

Document, if you can, that Satan is not able to go "to and fro."

 

[242006]

[sup]6[/sup] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan[sup][b][/sup] also came among them. [sup]7[/sup] And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”
[sup]8[/sup] Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?”

As Job indicates Satan was going to and fro threw the earth. But as we can see he was going to and fro from earth to heaven also.
Now he is just fro on earth no access to heaven Thanks to Jesus. That why we see the warning to the inhabitants of the earth ....Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

You, Paul, and others do greatly err with this position! Of course, I am familiar with the passage in Job that you have cited. However, it is a strawman argument to take the fact that, at one time, Satan walked on the earth and then postulate the following:

1. Satan is still walking on the earth today.
2. The war in heaven of Rev. 12 has already taken place [Paul claims in the first age]

With respect to item 1, Paul, you, and others will [correctly] claim that there is no direct scripture detailing when God or Christ removed Satan from walking on the earth. Well, the fact that there is no specific scripture detailing when or if Satan was removed, does not necessarily mean that Satan was not removed. Hence, it is a strawman argument to cite Job and argue that Satan has to still be walking the earth. All that the Job citation proves is that Satan, at that time, walked to and fro on the earth -- nothing more. To make your case, more scriptural proof, which you, Paul, and others have none, would be necessary before a Bible student can conclude that you are correct.

Now, Paul has some insight, which you do not, regarding the preacher we both are familiar with. That is why he was forthcoming with his 'Get thee behind me Satan' post, when I did not even raise that scripture as proof that Satan was removed from walking the earth. I find that scripture speculative at best -- certainly, not definitive enough to claim that the issue is settled.

With respect to item 2, it is only an unverifed presumption that, since Satan walked the earth at one time, the war in heaven spoken of in Rev. 12 has already occurred. Again, it is a strawman argument to make that presumption with nothing [scripturally] else to support and verify that such presumption is correct.

Jesus said it is finished at the cross Satan was completely defeated.

Satan was already completely defeated in the first age and sentenced to perish therein. See Eze. 28. Hence, you err in this position as well.

He is now on earth and locked out of heaven . . .

Pure fallacy -- one premised upon unverified and false presumptions.

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Unless you believe that God is not where heaven is, then the accuser, which is Satan himself, is in heaven now as the 'brethren' surely do sin still today.

. . . and today he searches for whom he may devour.

How does Satan do this?? Does he have to literally roam the earth in person?? If so, then is it that Satan only corrupts in person?? Or, can Satan searc the earth in spirit -- just as the Holy Spirit searches the earth for believers??

You only assume that Satan accomplishes his search in person and not in spirit.

1 Peter 5-8 Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.

Try reading it from the KJV -

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The term 'walketh about' succeeds 'as a roaring lion' -- not precedes it. The term 'walketh about' is part of the analogy of the lion. Of course, a lion travels its range to devour its food. However, the analogy does not mean that Satan is devouring food like the lion -- but, is devouring souls. Hence, one cannot affirm that Satan also has to walk the earth to devour like the lion.

The work 'seeking' -

G2212

ζητέω

zēteō

Of uncertain affinity; to seek (literally or figuratively); specifically (by Hebraism) to worship (God), or (in a bad sense) to plot (against life): - be (go) about, desire, endeavour, enquire (for), require, (X will) seek (after, for, means). Compare G4441.

Nothing in the etymology of the word locks Satan into walking on the earth to seek out.

The word 'devour' -

G2666

καταπίνω

katapinō

kat-ap-ee'-no

From G2596 and G4095; to drink down, that is, gulp entire (literally or figuratively): - devour, drown, swallow (up).

Likewise, the word is equally applicable figuratively.

Accordingly, the scripture that you cite is not dispositive at all. Nothing therein locks into your interpretation that Satan is literally walking the earth.

But can you imagine how angry he was on that day? He crushed Jerusalem and all its inhabitants, persecuted the saints. Up until about 370 -400 AD when the Catholic church became the official church of the Roman empire. We can see a change of tactics in Rev

Pure fallacy and not on point!

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Satan has great wrath because he has only a short time [before the return of Christ, which ends his opportunity to deceive flesh man] -- not because of Jerusalem.

12-[sup]16[/sup] But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. [sup]17[/sup] And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

All future events. Once Satan is kicked out of heaven, it is God's elect that speak the Truth about him. So, of course, Satan wants to defeat the elect.

He turned from the woman Israel and went after her offspring. God does not separate Israel from the Gentiles. And these are the only 2 points I make about history and Revelation, pay attention watchman. There are two 1260 day pieces of time. One for the woman and one for the beast. I believe the woman came out of the wilderness at the time of the reformation. As always the dates are always open for debate. But the RCC came to be the exclusive Roman religion in about 360 to 400 AD they literally moved right into the old Greek pant-ion they didn't even bother to remove the statues of the other gods. 1260 latter you come to the reformation. The early history and the demise of the Roman empire is so cloudy with dates and historians its a mess. But you can see the true sons of God rising up from under the tent of the RCC. Thats the turning point of the faith you know today, with out it we would all be sitting in one church called the RCC. The beast was also given 1260 years in 538 AD the papist received full power, now this is a very clear date as is 1260 years latter,,,, 1798 changed Europe. In 538 the pope had full militarily power now, yet they already had christian religion under control. 1260 years latter Napoleons general remove the pope from office and not a peep of protest was heard from the kings of Europe that followed the beast. After WWI not a one was left except the British Crown. Rome the RCC has never regained her power as it was before that time in 1798. But the beasts head that was wounded has healed since 1798, Thanks to darby in the 1830's, and today she has again spun a deceptive web covering her history, and reinterpreting the bible. The echos from the reformers are forgotten in the church today the very people that risked and gave their lives so we could have a protestant church are long forgotten. THAT IS ALL I have to say about Rev and History. But to get here where I am at you must properly interpret DANIAL 9-24/27. The rest of Rev I am open for discussion on. But that is my historic view that you so fondly and in error call preterism. God has not been silent in providing rev and prophesy for that last 2000 years but the catholic church is glad to here everything is still yet to take place in the FUTURE 7 YEAR TRIBULATION -------- the root is in the miss handling of Gabriels prophesy in Danial 9.

You are not on point with your speculation as everything after 12:5 in this chapter are future events.

I have studied Danial 9 more than any other chapter in the bible by 100s of times. I believe Danial 9:24 - 27 may be the most important 4 verses in the bible concerning the church today. Had the HOUSE OF ISRAEL paid attention they would have know exactly when and what the Messiah was all about. The time of His coming and the mission. Whether you want to admit it or not,,,,,,,, changing he in verse 27 from Messiah to Anti-Christ, or cutting off the last week and applying it to a future 7 year tribulation, both find their way back to mystery Babylon, the counter reformation. ONE VERSE !!!!!! its like a virus in your computer ONE VERSE will cause it to crash. Its like leaven in bread a little bit causes the whole loaf to rise. You know the verses about the unleavened bread now open your eyes and see it for yourself. I'm not trying to interpret Rev for you, I'm trying to get people to understand Danial 9 24-27. so then they can understand for themselves.

What else can I say -- you didn't study properly!

 

[242006]

Document, if you can, that Satan is not able to go "to and fro."

You will have your answer when you answer this question -

Where are the fallen angels at this time?

 

[Paul]

You will have your answer when you answer this question -

Where are the fallen angels at this time?

No, I'm not playing you game. You made the statement,

…. Of course, that time would be when Satan, the antichrist, is kicked out of heaven to the earth during the endtime tribulation time.

And like someone else we know, you can not document that Satan is being held in heaven.

I do agree with much of what he teaches and what you have been saying, but some things are speculation.

 

[242006]

No, I'm not playing you game. You made the statement,

Of course you won't answer the question!! For, if you did, we both know that you would be shown the contradicting duplicity of your position.

 

[bud02]

You, Paul, and others do greatly err with this position! Of course, I am familiar with the passage in Job that you have cited. However, it is a strawman argument to take the fact that, at one time, Satan walked on the earth and then postulate the following:

Now, Paul has some insight, which you do not, regarding the preacher we both are familiar with. That is why he was forthcoming with his 'Get thee behind me Satan' post, when I did not even raise that scripture as proof that Satan was removed from walking the earth. I find that scripture speculative at best -- certainly, not definitive enough to claim that the issue is settled.

Satan was already completely defeated in the first age and sentenced to perish therein. See Eze. 28. Hence, you err in this position as well.

With respect to item 2, it is only an unverifed presumption that, since Satan walked the earth at one time, the war in heaven spoken of in Rev. 12 has already occurred. Again, it is a strawman argument to make that presumption with nothing [scripturally] else to support and verify that such presumption is correct.

What else can I say -- you didn't study properly!

It is pretty clear you have a very different fundamental understanding of scripture than I and many others. It sounds as thou you are implying that Satan is omnipresent the same as God.
Without need of presents and uses a spirit. I believe Satan can only be in one place at one time similar to any Angle we see in scripture.

You also say that Satan is in heaven and not on earth today inspite of what scripture says. Its clear you beleive that scriptural reference to him, is a case of him acting threw some omnipresent spirt. From this I and perhaps others will conclude you do not accept the plain text reading of scripture, but choose to interpret it with your hidden knowledge of the first earth age, rather than scripture its self. I've been doing this long enough to realize that I nor scripture can ever convince you differently. It is simply a pointless waste of my time. The devision between us has now become one of be-leaving Gods word alone or be-leaving Gods word combined with strange wifes tells.

I am trying to make readers here understand just how important properly interpreting Gods word alone is, demonstrating how one verse can dramatically effect the whole of scripture, much less injecting things that are not.

I'm not going to comment on it any longer, this is not just a disagreement between believers this is a disagreement in the nature of satan, making him equal with god in the sense that he orchestrates his mischief from heaven to the whole earth as God. I did use the word omnipresent. And your references to the first earth age are a telling sign as well. I would like to point out to readers that haven't read about this, don't think that watchman is refering to the days of Noah / pre-flood earth. He is speaking of a time that predates any clear scripture, a time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.This secret knowledge you and Paul posses from your pastor kind of says it all. just come out and use your special vision, or define it please.

 

[Paul]

.... And your references to the first earth age are a telling sign as well. I would like to point out to readers that haven't read about this, don't think that watchman is refering to the days of Noah / pre-flood earth. He is speaking of a time that predates any clear scripture, a time between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2.

Yes, and that time, between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 can easily be documented in Scripture, we have done so many times. I agree with Watchman mant more times that I agree with you.

 

[bud02]

Yes, and that time, between Gen 1:1 and Gen 1:2 can easily be documented in Scripture, we have done so many times. I agree with Watchman mant more times that I agree with you.

I have yet to see a detailed account from you or Watchman. Nether of you offer an alternative. How is it that God is glorified by simply disagreeing?

For people looking for answers or clues to a greater understanding, don't you think it advantageous to present your views, rather than just disagree? By the way who is it that operates this site. Who ever it is keeps doesn't make their identity public, or an I just not seeing it?

 

[Paul]

I have yet to see a detailed account from you or Watchman. Nether of you offer an alternative. How is it that God is glorified by simply disagreeing?

For people looking for answers or clues to a greater understanding, don't you think it advantageous to present your views, rather than just disagree? By the way who is it that operates this site. Who ever it is keeps doesn't make their identity public, or an I just not seeing it?

Their are studies throughout this board on the time between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, you need to read them. There is no reason to repost them here. Maybe start with this one: http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/71-the-first-of-three-earth-ages-bible-study/