New Views on the Rapture

Charlie · Jul 2, 2011

veteran said:
To fear death of the flesh and persecutions that come from following Christ Jesus is to be weak in the Faith. Fearing death also puts one's emotions in play for the false prophets to use against a believer. The pre-trib rapture preachers use that particular fear tactic a lot, not making up the hedge for God's people to stand in the battle of the day of The Lord (Ezek.13).

It might interest you to know I do not fear death, my friend, for I know that when my body dies my soul will go to heaven to be with the Lord, as did the soul of the thief on the cross and I know persecutions can be the lot of a believer.

There is no doubt Paul, and many other believers, have suffered persecutions.

God Bless you. Charlie

veteran · Jul 2, 2011

CharlesBaker said:
It might interest you to know I do not fear death, my friend, for I know that when my body dies my soul will go to heaven to be with the Lord, as did the soul of the thief on the cross and I know persecutions can be the lot of a believer.

There is no doubt Paul, and many other believers, have suffered persecutions.

God Bless you. Charlie

That's good brother, because we're really going to need Faith like that with the trials coming in our near future.

revturmoil · Jul 2, 2011

Duckybill said:
And you say we are deceived.

Revelation 13:7 (NKJV)
[sup]7 [/sup]It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

You are deceived if you believe in a global empire of the man of sin or a unified global religion.

You and the others need to do a word srudy on the word all and earth. Earth often doesn't mean the entire planet. It usually refers to a region, a territory, an inhabitted area, or ground.

All is one of the most difficult words to understand in the bible. ALL or 'PAS" refers only to the thing that it indicates. In other words. All (pas) refers to all the tribes, tongues and nations under his authority (within his kingdom) Not the entire world. If that was what John wanted to imply, he would have used the word 'holos' which does mean "all, whole, completely" as he did in verse 3.

Revelation 13:7-8 　And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 　If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Here the word all is "pas". And it means something totally different than "holos." It means;

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

In verse 3 the word all (holos) meaning all, whole, completely is used with only one object i.e. the world. And that all (holos) and world (ge) does refer to the entire planet.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

All the world (entire planet) will wonder after the beast. The entire world will be astonished if they see someone like bin Laden or Hussein return as the Mahdi and/or false prophet or anti-christ.

But in verse 7-8 the word all (pas) meaning individually, is used in connection with kindreds, tongues, and nations. It doesn't imply all the world. It implies all kindreds, tongues, and nations "within his authority and kingdom."

Duckybill · Jul 3, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
You are deceived if you believe in a global empire of the man of sin or a unified global religion.

You and the others need to do a word srudy on the word all and earth. Earth often doesn't mean the entire planet. It usually refers to a region, a territory, an inhabitted area, or ground.

All is one of the most difficult words to understand in the bible. ALL or 'PAS" refers only to the thing that it indicates. In other words. All (pas) refers to all the tribes, tongues and nations under his authority (within his kingdom) Not the entire world. If that was what John wanted to imply, he would have used the word 'holos' which does mean "all, whole, completely" as he did in verse 3.

Revelation 13:7-8 　And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 　If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Here the word all is "pas". And it means something totally different than "holos." It means;

1) individually

a) each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

2) collectively

a) some of all types

In verse 3 the word all (holos) meaning all, whole, completely is used with only one object i.e. the world. And that all (holos) and world (ge) does refer to the entire planet.

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

All the world (entire planet) will wonder after the beast. The entire world will be astonished if they see someone like bin Laden or Hussein return as the Mahdi and/or false prophet or anti-christ.

But in verse 7-8 the word all (pas) meaning individually, is used in connection with kindreds, tongues, and nations. It doesn't imply all the world. It implies all kindreds, tongues, and nations "within his authority and kingdom."

If an anti-Christ World Government arises in the near future I'm ready. How about you?

revturmoil · Jul 3, 2011

Duckybill said:
If an anti-Christ World Government arises in the near future I'm ready. How about you?

Here you go questioning peoples salvation again. How come you haven't been banned yet!

Is that your prefered method of debate when you're on the losing end of an argument?

There will not be a world government! That idea is contradictory to the ten horned beast as well as a slew of other scriptures. And what makes you think that all of the worlds governments would relinquish their authority to one man?

The big shots have you buffaload!

Duckybill · Jul 3, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
Here you go questioning peoples salvation again. How come you haven't been banned yet!

Huh?

Is that your prefered method of debate when you're on the losing end of an argument?

Nope.

There will not be a world government! That idea is contradictory to the ten horned beast as well as a slew of other scriptures. And what makes you think that all of the worlds governments would relinquish their authority to one man?

And that's YOUR opinion. Sit back and watch the World Government form. Uncle Sam is already dead.

The big shots have you buffaload!

Who are the "big shots"?

revturmoil · Jul 3, 2011

Huh?

That's an ignorant reply.
You're an undesireable that discourages people from engaging in a debate. You have questioned peoples salvation several times on this forum.

Nope.

Why is it then that you continually question peoples salvation instead of confronting the issues presented to you.

And that's YOUR opinion. Sit back and watch the World Government form. Uncle Sam is already dead.

That's not my opinion. That's what the Word of God say's for those who know how to do a word study and have a sensible hermeneutic.

Who are the "big shots"?

They are your mentors whose false theories and false doctrines you have fallen for....line, hook, and sinker.

aspen · Jul 3, 2011

I am looking forward to the end of this world, and I am glad that my theories about how God is going to wrap it all up are simply theories. I am glad I am not required to have a developed eschatology to be united with Christ. If it is on Earth or in the air or on the moon - I am going to be thinking about Christ and my brothers and sisters, not calculating whether or not the scenery matches my best guess about where it is going to happen.

Duckybill · Jul 4, 2011

kaoticprofit said:
That's an ignorant reply.
You're an undesireable that discourages people from engaging in a debate. You have questioned peoples salvation several times on this forum.

That's at least the third time you have called me "an undesireable" here. You obviously don't know how God feels about name callers. Why aren't you banned?

Why is it then that you continually question peoples salvation instead of confronting the issues presented to you.

For instance?

That's not my opinion. That's what the Word of God say's for those who know how to do a word study and have a sensible hermeneutic.

Again, your opinion.

They are your mentors whose false theories and false doctrines you have fallen for....line, hook, and sinker.

Or maybe yours.

Ray · Aug 16, 2011

A Question for those who teach a Rapture of the Church followed by Seven years of tribulation. What do you do with verses John 6:39,40,44,54 or John 11:24 which is Clear that Jesus will raise the Believer up on the Last Day or John 12:48 which is Clear The Judgement will be on the Last Day (the word LAST used here in the Greek is eschatos: which means extreme or furthest out. The word DAY used here in the Greek is hemera: means a literal day, the interval between sunrise and sunset.) How can anyone teach there will be seven years more of counting time after this Last Day? 1 Corinthians 15: 22-26 Clearly teaches that those who are Christ's (The Church) will be resurrected at the coming of Christ "then Cometh the End when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to GOD, even the Father; when He shall have put down ALL RULE and ALL AUTHORITY AND POWER. For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. The Last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." With these events occuring in conjuction with the Resurrection how can anyone teach that there will be seven more years of rule and authority other than GOD's or more death and dying after death is destroyed at the Resurrection. I have read many commentaries of those who teach a Rapture followed by seven years of tribulation, and I must admitt that they have to add to or subtract from or completly twist the truth of The Word Of GOD to make it line up with such a doctrine. One such expositor of The Word Of GOD in his Study Bible constantly uses the term "should have been translated" as he changes the Truth of The Word to line up with his Doctrine. This teaching of a Rapture (or Christ coming in two more comings) or seven years of tribulation to occur after the Church is taken up can only be taught through commentary of man or notes on verses of Scripture to line up with a doctrine invented in the minds of men, For it is nowhere found in The Word Of GOD.

rockytopva · Aug 16, 2011

Guy's... Keep in mind that this event is going to happen in ordinary times... In times when we are not looking for it to happen...

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:27

And in Luke 17.... (Luke 17:24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37)

[sup]24[/sup]For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
[sup]25[/sup]But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
[sup]26[/sup]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[sup]27[/sup]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[sup]28[/sup]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[sup]29[/sup]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[sup]30[/sup]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
[sup]31[/sup]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
[sup]32[/sup]Remember Lot's wife.
[sup]33[/sup]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
[sup]34[/sup]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
[sup]35[/sup]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]36[/sup]Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]37[/sup]And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

veteran · Aug 16, 2011

rockytopva said:
Guy's... Keep in mind that this event is going to happen in ordinary times... In times when we are not looking for it to happen...

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. - Matthew 24:27

And in Luke 17.... (Luke 17:24,25,26,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,36,37)

[sup]24[/sup]For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.
[sup]25[/sup]But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
[sup]26[/sup]And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
[sup]27[/sup]They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
[sup]28[/sup]Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
[sup]29[/sup]But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
[sup]30[/sup]Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
[sup]31[/sup]In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
[sup]32[/sup]Remember Lot's wife.
[sup]33[/sup]Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
[sup]34[/sup]I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
[sup]35[/sup]Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]36[/sup]Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
[sup]37[/sup]And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Well, at least you're consistent with your Pre-trib rapture ideas. But NONE of that Scripture is about a secret pre-trib rapture of the saints.

Perspectives · Aug 25, 2011

rockytopva said:
Rapture is not in the bible... But caught up is!

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. - 1 Thessalonians 4:17

Consider that caught up can mean many things. We can be caught up in our work, in recreation etc. Rapture properly defined means 1) an expression or manifestation of ecstacy or passion. 2) a state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion. Don't have to leave the planet to experience that! As a matter of fact, emotion doesn't move God, emotion is the result of His moving. Think about your first love and how you felt about him or her, you were in-raptured with them, consumed with them,part and parcel of them, living in the now. Caught up away from problems and all difficult situations. Yesterday is gone and tomorrow isn't here yet. Mat. 6:34 Sufficient for the day is it's own trouble. All we have is right now. You can be caught up in His love at any time!

Foreigner · Aug 25, 2011

Big Picture, I have never been accused of being overly supportive of the Rapture, but your post is - how shall I put it? - not very convincing.

"Caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

While I have heard people attempt to 'describe away' the idea of actual clouds by saying that - my favorite line - "In the ancient Greek" it is also used to describe crows.

But there is simply NO WAY the term "caught up" is meant the way you imply it.

While I am not a trained linguist, I am unable to find anywhere an indication that "caught up" was used in that manner 2000 years ago.

I realize that your next statement must then be, "But there's nothing that says it wasn't."

And to that I say, is that really the best you can do?

tomwebster · Aug 25, 2011

Foreigner said:
Big Picture, I have never been accused of being overly supportive of the Rapture, but your post is - how shall I put it? - not very convincing.

"Caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air"

While I have heard people attempt to 'describe away' the idea of actual clouds by saying that - my favorite line - "In the ancient Greek" it is also used to describe crows.

But there is simply NO WAY the term "caught up" is meant the way you imply it.

While I am not a trained linguist, I am unable to find anywhere an indication that "caught up" was used in that manner 2000 years ago.

I realize that your next statement must then be, "But there's nothing that says it wasn't."

And to that I say, is that really the best you can do?

The words "caught up" were not used 2000 years ago. English had not been started at that time. The word used was "αρπαγησομεθα "

What do you call a large group of locust? What did the author of Hebrews (Paul) call a large group of “witnesses” in Hebrews 12:1

tgwprophet · Aug 27, 2011

lioncubseal wrote:
<quote>." Therefore we need not guess for the meaning of the verb to take, Jesus gave us the meaning, he used it in verse 39 to describe being destroyed, being "taken by the grim reaper"<quote>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Taken" can mean diverse forms of by whom and to where... One can be taken as quickly as if they were taken by the "grim reaper" yet be taken by someone else. One can be taken like they were taken by the "grim reaper" and yet be taken somewhere else.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
<quote>1 Thessalonians 4:17 "17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." As for the second verse in Thessalonians, I will demonstrate that Paul was not being literal with the words "clouds" and "air", because, putting science/common sense aside (there's virtually nothing up there), scripture does not allow us the possibility of 'being with the lord FOREVER' in the literal air/sky/atmosphere.<quote>
--------------------------------------------------------------------
It implies with the Lord forever and pretty much where ever he goes and not restricted to the sky... When Jesus sits his kingdom on Earth those "taken" in the Rapture will be on earth with him as well. I see no contradiction in the understnding of the many here... The place I see a difference is when referring to those that go in the Rapture and for whom the Rapture is given.

tgwprophet · Aug 29, 2011

Upon reading some of the many posts, I have concluded there is a possibility that Christains strong in their faith and not lacking the ability to successfully deny the Mark of the Beast could be raptures as well. I have not enough of the puzzle peices together to write why I am considering this and once i do I will post it. The reasoning is still quite vague to me, but CHEERS to all those that have given me reasons for further investigation..

veteran · Aug 30, 2011

terry said:
Upon reading some of the many posts, I have concluded there is a possibility that Christains strong in their faith and not lacking the ability to successfully deny the Mark of the Beast could be raptures as well. I have not enough of the puzzle peices together to write why I am considering this and once i do I will post it. The reasoning is still quite vague to me, but CHEERS to all those that have given me reasons for further investigation..

What does "...not lacking the ability to successfully deny the Mark of the Beast" mean exactly?

Christ's elect will not lack... the ability to deny that mark of the beast, because it will involve bowing in false worship to the image of the beast, an idol. They aren't gonna' do it, regardless of the persecution upon them. Don't fear those who after they have killed, can't do anything else to you; fear God Himself instead (Matt.10:28; Isaiah 8).

Might want to rethink the idea of escapism, for that's not how God has historically protected His elect servants on earth. Some of His elect prophets He allowed to be killed by His enemies. So whatever comes, whether we are preserved through the tribulation, or die in Christ during it, it's our souls that need to be prepared, not our flesh.

Perspectives · Sep 1, 2011

terry said:
Upon reading some of the many posts, I have concluded there is a possibility that Christains strong in their faith and not lacking the ability to successfully deny the Mark of the Beast could be raptures as well. I have not enough of the puzzle peices together to write why I am considering this and once i do I will post it. The reasoning is still quite vague to me, but CHEERS to all those that have given me reasons for further investigation..

1 Samuel 5:1- 4. As you read this passage, the second time dagon fell on his face, his head and hands were broken off. That was not random. It's a shadow or type of things to come. It's significant because you and I can't do what we haven't thought about first. The hand follows the head. Until the soul of God displaces the fallen human soul, the marks remain, yes, I'm saying we all have the mark. The beast isn't comming, it's been here since the garden. The word beast is translated in both testaments to foundationally mean a domestic animal, or a wild animal. Paul when teaching in 1Cor.15:32 talks about fighting beasts in Ephesus, as far as I know Paul never fought with any natural animals. The word for beast here translates to furious men! The beast that God is processing out of those that will follow. Some will, some won't and some can't. Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls.....1Peter 1:9.

Edward Palamar · Nov 8, 2011

lioncubseal said:
The mainstream belief about the rapture . . .

. . . was possibly shattered when Christ raised His angel from the dead. Now I say Christ, but it is the power of the Father which glorifies the Son. And all God's people said, that's right - "Amen."

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