The 10 Commandments are FOREVER
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dad
Well-Known Member
He tried. No one ever did it. Not you. Not Paul. Living in obedience to the law does not mean that Paul was successful but that he tried the best he could. Paul never said he never, for example, lusted. He said it was the law that showed him it was lust.
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The law convicts us about how bad we are and shows us that we need Jesus.
10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. !!
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
I would say that I know a lot more about the laws in the Torah than you do.
1, How can the first four laws of the Ten Commandments be "moral"? They have nothing to do with morality. They are purely spiritual and relate to a person's relationship to God. Even the laws pertaining to tithes were in fact offerings to God.
2. The Sabbath law (the 4th Law) is a spiritual law, and is now transferred to the Christian Sabbath (which the Sabbatarians reject but the apostles upheld). Jesus said that God is a Spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in Spirit and in truth. The Lord's Day is for Christian worship, rest, and good works.
3. How can criminal laws be "civil", when they are always treated differently (to this day) and the penalties are also different? Criminal laws resulted in the death penalty, while civil laws frequently required just compensation and restitution.
4. How can dietary laws be "ceremonial" since they pertain strictly to the intake of food -- which is a necessity?
5. How can sacrifices be "ceremonial" since they pertain to the atonement for sins? In the OT "atonement" meant "covering" and the blood of clean animals did cover sins (in anticipation of the final sacrifice of Christ).
6. How can the laws pertaining to the Levitical priesthood and the Levites be "ceremonial" when they included the worthiness of the priests and Levites for service?
7. Then we have laws pertaining to the responsibilities of kings, and laws regulating warfare. There is nothing "civil" or "ceremonial" here.
It was the laws pertaining to feasts, festivals, holy days, new moons etc. which were regarded as ceremonial.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I don't need to rationalize keeping the 10 Commandments. It's the default position. Do you feel that you need to rationalize not keeping them? The new antinomian position is almost entirely a construct of late-20th century America. I witnessed the whole thing. I heard people say that the ten commandments were nailed to the cross. I couldn't believe what I was hearing. My father said he never in his life heard such a thing. He raised me Southern Baptist.
The Mitzvot is not an inspired numbering of God's commandments. Christians have no interest in it except as a tool to justify lawlessness. Love God and your neighbor is not law. Love is a principle. Law is based on principles. That's why my Jesus said the law and the prophets hang on love for God and neighbor. God's law is simple. He separated it from ceremony by etching it in stone. Even a child can understand that. Except we become as little children we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 18:3)
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Any particular reason you skipped this part?
11For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
No wonder the Psalmist said:
Psalm 19:7 KJV: The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
dad
Well-Known Member
Of course the law is holy and good. Too bad you aren't quite so good yet though. God is good. There are none righteous, no not one. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Because Jesus saves us the law is no longer death to us.
Rom 8:because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.
Oceanprayers
Active Member
Oceanprayers
Active Member
His mother spent a veritable fortune hunting the world for "relics".
I'm thinking the slogan typically attributed to P.T Barnum, without evidence to that effect, "There's a sucker born every minute." , may be applicable at this juncture.
Relics lead to idolatry.
Look! It's Judas finger..... Really?!
Oceanprayers
Active Member
This could come in handy at this point I think. Particularly the bold part.
Posted with permission.
Is The Sabbath A Ceremonial Law Or Moral Law
Is the Sabbath a Ceremonial Law or Moral Law?
It seems today that many cannot tell the difference between what God wrote in stone and what Moses wrote in a book. There are some who claim that the Lord's Sabbath is a ceremonial law and they go to complicated extremes to try and prove this heresy. But the truth does not have to be complicated and so we are going to keep this simple so that the wise will have no trouble seeing how our adversary has once again set out to deceive many on this precious Commandment about quality time with God on His Holy day.
As there is so much confusion between laws it would be very beneficial to read the first few paragraphs of the comparison between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law before continuing. See also the Bible list of the Ten Commandments.
The Ten Commandments were personally spoken by God, and written by the finger of God (Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 4:12-13) and stored on the inside of the Ark of the Covenant. (Deuteronomy 10:5) Ceremonial law or moral lawOn the top of the Ark of the Covenant were two Cherubim and between these two Cherubim was what is known as the Shekinah glory which represented the very presence of God Himself. Directly under the Shekinah glory was the mercy seat and under the mercy seat was where these stone tablets which God wrote upon were stored. This is the moral law of God and it is not difficult to see just how important this law is. The purpose of this law written in stone is to point out sin. (Romans 7:7)
The ceremonial law on the other hand was given to Moses by God and was written by Moses on parchment in a book (Deuteronomy 31:24) and was stored on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 31:26) to be a witness against the Israelite people. Hence it was also called the Mosaic Law or the law of Moses since it was written by him. This law is also called the sacrificial law as it was added because of sin and was practiced when one sinned before Jesus replaced this sacrificial law on the cross when He became our final sacrifice ending the need for this law. Thus the Mosaic Law only was nailed to the cross. See were the Ten Commandments nailed to the cross.
So basically we have the moral law which defines love and the character of God and the ceremonial law that was added because God's moral law was transgressed. (1 John 3:4) Now to state the obvious, if the Lord's Sabbath had been a ceremonial law then it would have been practiced when one sinned before the cross but the Sabbath of the Lord was never practiced because of sin. It would also had to have been written by Moses in his book of the law, but not so.
Most of the genuine confusion comes from the fact that there were also sacrificial sabbaths such as “Passover” and “Day Of Atonement” and five others that were added because of sin. Jesus of course became our Passover Lamb and no one can dispute that was about sacrifices and hence sin, (Hebrews 10:12; Romans 6:23) and the Day Of Atonement was about removing the sins of the people from the sanctuary, and again, clearly about sacrifices. These two sacrificial, ceremonial sabbaths were written down by Moses in the Mosaic Law where they belonged, as I hope one would now understand.
Now, to state the obvious once again, the Mosaic Laws were written in the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandment laws were written in the Ten Commandments. The “Sabbath of the Lord thy God” (Exodus 20:8-11) is the fourth Commandment. The Creator of the universe does not make mistakes and knew exactly what He was doing when He wrote His Sabbath in His law instead of the Law of Moses, which had all the ceremonial sabbaths! God put His Sabbath precisely where it belonged. God is not a fool and “is not the author of confusion…” 1 Corinthians 14:33.
Some also claim that the Lord's Sabbath was not made at creation but scripture shows this incorrect also. The only reason why we have a seven day week is because God added the Seventh day Sabbath at creation. (Genesis 2:1-3) The word translated “rested” in our English Bibles in Genesis 2:3 is “shabbath” in Hebrew and means Sabbath! So the Sabbath was made at creation before sin and was part of God's original perfect plan. Thus the Lord's Sabbath existed a long time before the ceremonial law ever did which is just one more reason why the Lord's Sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law. Exodus 31:17 also confirms when God created the Sabbath day, “It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:..” When and why was this? Because “...in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested [shabbath], and was refreshed.” Parentheses are added. And as per Genesis 2:3, the word “rested” in Exodus 31:17 is also “shabbath” thus saying God rested on the Sabbath after creating and was refreshed. See also is the Sabbath for Israel only.
Those guilty of antinomianism often claim that the moral law and the ceremonial law are the same but to make such a statement is no different from saying that when someone commits adultery, they must go and commit murder to make reconciliation for their sin. Or that Jesus died on the cross because people were using animals for sacrifices. This sounds ridiculous I know, but this is what they are effectively saying when they try to convince others that there is no difference between these two laws. It is easily seen that one law was about animal sacrifices that Jesus replaced, while the other is a law of love which defines God's character and is sin to break.
Some also claim that the moral law did not exist before the Ten Commandments were given but again scripture proves this false. (Genesis 26:5) These commandments, statutes and laws cannot be the Mosaic Law because this law was not given until 430 years later because the law was transgressed. But what law? (Galatians 3:17-19) The Ten Commandments had to be transgressed first and why the sacrificial law was added to make reconciliation for sin until the seed should come. It obviously cannot be the other way around. Note that this law was only until the seed (Christ) as He nailed this sacrificial law to the cross being the perfect sacrifice. Read what is the law in Galatians for more. We also find the Sabbath being kept before the Ten Commandments were codified in Exodus 20. Just before God first read the Ten Commandments, He said to Moses that He is going to test the people to see if they will keep all His law or not. The Sabbath is very much a test Commandment and most are failing miserably just as God's children did in Exodus 16:4-30. So how did God test the people to see if they loved Him enough to obey His Law? By seeing if they would specifically keep the Seventh Day or not. Did they keep the Seventh day as God commanded? No! And so God accused them of breaking all His law. As far as God was concerned, if they did not keep the fourth Commandment as He commanded then they were breaking all His Laws and Commandments. We find James confirms this same principle as God. (James 2:10-12)
Seventeen verses after the second reading of the Ten Commandments, Moses quoting God states in Deuteronomy 6:5 that to keep the Ten Commandments God wrote in stone is to love Him with all our heart, soul and might. Thus these Ten Laws, which of course includes the fourth Commandment are about loving God with all our heart and are therefore moral laws. So did you note that all Ten are love for God? The fourth being the Sabbath is also a Commandment of love because Deuteronomy 6:5 says that loving God with all your heart, soul and might is to keep each and every one of the Ten Commandments that had just been read. In no way does loving God supremely change one single Commandment. So we find from these points and many more that the Lord's Sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law. Read also was the Sabbath abolished.
Posted with permission.
Is The Sabbath A Ceremonial Law Or Moral Law
Is the Sabbath a Ceremonial Law or Moral Law?
It seems today that many cannot tell the difference between what God wrote in stone and what Moses wrote in a book. There are some who claim that the Lord's Sabbath is a ceremonial law and they go to complicated extremes to try and prove this heresy. But the truth does not have to be complicated and so we are going to keep this simple so that the wise will have no trouble seeing how our adversary has once again set out to deceive many on this precious Commandment about quality time with God on His Holy day.
As there is so much confusion between laws it would be very beneficial to read the first few paragraphs of the comparison between the Ten Commandments and the Mosaic Law before continuing. See also the Bible list of the Ten Commandments.
The Ten Commandments were personally spoken by God, and written by the finger of God (Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 4:12-13) and stored on the inside of the Ark of the Covenant. (Deuteronomy 10:5) Ceremonial law or moral lawOn the top of the Ark of the Covenant were two Cherubim and between these two Cherubim was what is known as the Shekinah glory which represented the very presence of God Himself. Directly under the Shekinah glory was the mercy seat and under the mercy seat was where these stone tablets which God wrote upon were stored. This is the moral law of God and it is not difficult to see just how important this law is. The purpose of this law written in stone is to point out sin. (Romans 7:7)
The ceremonial law on the other hand was given to Moses by God and was written by Moses on parchment in a book (Deuteronomy 31:24) and was stored on the outside of the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 31:26) to be a witness against the Israelite people. Hence it was also called the Mosaic Law or the law of Moses since it was written by him. This law is also called the sacrificial law as it was added because of sin and was practiced when one sinned before Jesus replaced this sacrificial law on the cross when He became our final sacrifice ending the need for this law. Thus the Mosaic Law only was nailed to the cross. See were the Ten Commandments nailed to the cross.
So basically we have the moral law which defines love and the character of God and the ceremonial law that was added because God's moral law was transgressed. (1 John 3:4) Now to state the obvious, if the Lord's Sabbath had been a ceremonial law then it would have been practiced when one sinned before the cross but the Sabbath of the Lord was never practiced because of sin. It would also had to have been written by Moses in his book of the law, but not so.
Most of the genuine confusion comes from the fact that there were also sacrificial sabbaths such as “Passover” and “Day Of Atonement” and five others that were added because of sin. Jesus of course became our Passover Lamb and no one can dispute that was about sacrifices and hence sin, (Hebrews 10:12; Romans 6:23) and the Day Of Atonement was about removing the sins of the people from the sanctuary, and again, clearly about sacrifices. These two sacrificial, ceremonial sabbaths were written down by Moses in the Mosaic Law where they belonged, as I hope one would now understand.
Now, to state the obvious once again, the Mosaic Laws were written in the Mosaic Law and the Ten Commandment laws were written in the Ten Commandments. The “Sabbath of the Lord thy God” (Exodus 20:8-11) is the fourth Commandment. The Creator of the universe does not make mistakes and knew exactly what He was doing when He wrote His Sabbath in His law instead of the Law of Moses, which had all the ceremonial sabbaths! God put His Sabbath precisely where it belonged. God is not a fool and “is not the author of confusion…” 1 Corinthians 14:33.
Some also claim that the Lord's Sabbath was not made at creation but scripture shows this incorrect also. The only reason why we have a seven day week is because God added the Seventh day Sabbath at creation. (Genesis 2:1-3) The word translated “rested” in our English Bibles in Genesis 2:3 is “shabbath” in Hebrew and means Sabbath! So the Sabbath was made at creation before sin and was part of God's original perfect plan. Thus the Lord's Sabbath existed a long time before the ceremonial law ever did which is just one more reason why the Lord's Sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law. Exodus 31:17 also confirms when God created the Sabbath day, “It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever:..” When and why was this? Because “...in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested [shabbath], and was refreshed.” Parentheses are added. And as per Genesis 2:3, the word “rested” in Exodus 31:17 is also “shabbath” thus saying God rested on the Sabbath after creating and was refreshed. See also is the Sabbath for Israel only.
Those guilty of antinomianism often claim that the moral law and the ceremonial law are the same but to make such a statement is no different from saying that when someone commits adultery, they must go and commit murder to make reconciliation for their sin. Or that Jesus died on the cross because people were using animals for sacrifices. This sounds ridiculous I know, but this is what they are effectively saying when they try to convince others that there is no difference between these two laws. It is easily seen that one law was about animal sacrifices that Jesus replaced, while the other is a law of love which defines God's character and is sin to break.
Some also claim that the moral law did not exist before the Ten Commandments were given but again scripture proves this false. (Genesis 26:5) These commandments, statutes and laws cannot be the Mosaic Law because this law was not given until 430 years later because the law was transgressed. But what law? (Galatians 3:17-19) The Ten Commandments had to be transgressed first and why the sacrificial law was added to make reconciliation for sin until the seed should come. It obviously cannot be the other way around. Note that this law was only until the seed (Christ) as He nailed this sacrificial law to the cross being the perfect sacrifice. Read what is the law in Galatians for more. We also find the Sabbath being kept before the Ten Commandments were codified in Exodus 20. Just before God first read the Ten Commandments, He said to Moses that He is going to test the people to see if they will keep all His law or not. The Sabbath is very much a test Commandment and most are failing miserably just as God's children did in Exodus 16:4-30. So how did God test the people to see if they loved Him enough to obey His Law? By seeing if they would specifically keep the Seventh Day or not. Did they keep the Seventh day as God commanded? No! And so God accused them of breaking all His law. As far as God was concerned, if they did not keep the fourth Commandment as He commanded then they were breaking all His Laws and Commandments. We find James confirms this same principle as God. (James 2:10-12)
Seventeen verses after the second reading of the Ten Commandments, Moses quoting God states in Deuteronomy 6:5 that to keep the Ten Commandments God wrote in stone is to love Him with all our heart, soul and might. Thus these Ten Laws, which of course includes the fourth Commandment are about loving God with all our heart and are therefore moral laws. So did you note that all Ten are love for God? The fourth being the Sabbath is also a Commandment of love because Deuteronomy 6:5 says that loving God with all your heart, soul and might is to keep each and every one of the Ten Commandments that had just been read. In no way does loving God supremely change one single Commandment. So we find from these points and many more that the Lord's Sabbath cannot be a ceremonial law. Read also was the Sabbath abolished.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
dad
Well-Known Member
Too bad the law brings death because no one could keep it. That is why Jesus died for us. No, the law is not some law of death. That is, if we could keep it. Since no one ever did, that is why we need Jesus.
"
Romans 7:5 explains Paul’s focus on the Law as leading to sin and death: “For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.” In contrast, the “way” or law of the Spirit is noted in Romans 7:6: “But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.” The Law itself is not sinful (Romans 7:7). However, the Law defined sin and stirred up our natural rebellion against God’s rules, resulting in sin and death.
Romans 7:10–11 speaks of how sin, death, and the Law are connected: “I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death. For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.” This death refers to spiritual separation from God. Shackled by our depraved nature, we naturally opposed the Law, and we found that God’s life-giving Word served only to sentence us to death. It is because of this that Paul can refer to the Law as the “law of sin and death.”
The conclusion of Romans 7 shows the need of the gospel to deliver us from the consequences of sin under the Law:"
What is the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2)? | GotQuestions.org
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
What she means is this matter of working in the field and building of God has nothing to do with a person working to save themselves. The saved person is saved. They will be saved. Paul is saying it's a matter of whether or not you're going to show up at the resurrection alone with no one to show for your labor in the field and building of God, or whether some of your 'work' is going to come with you. The people you successfully minister to in this life will be your reward on the other side. That's why Paul says we should be careful how we build. You don't want to show up with no one to show for your labor for God here on earth. There's no reward for that.
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Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
LOL I tell you what I will give you a homework assignment.
NIV Bible 1978
NASB Bible 1971
These are two of the more creditable Bibles. So most of the fracturing of Christ Church definitely occurred before 1971....so what other popular versions were people using between 1611 and 1971.
Martin Luther's Bible was a German translation and was not popular enough for to many too be translated into English.
The Geneva Bible, nicked named the Britches Bible....published 1560 It can take very little credit.
And of course Williams Tyndale's Bible can only take indirect credit.
So you tell me which Bible confused people enough to make 30,000 attempt to get it right. Understand that 30,000 denominations is a conservative estimate of worldwide denominations.
Mostly a process of elimination. The poetic nature of the language, although beautiful and elegant, can take some credit, for confusing people even today.
But I will warn you....remember my dry humor.
No version of the Bible can take all the credit....unknowledgeable people starting denominations and people that wanted to believe certain things take some of the credit....and people that focused on small elements of the Bible take credit....Baptists.... Pentecosts...Methodist etc. But most all of them were using the King James Version of the Bible.
And there were so many things in the KJV that lead people to false beliefs....
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The debt of the law, including the Ten Commandments got nailed to the cross and marked 'paid in full'.
Oceanprayers
Active Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
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