Must Read - Christianity Vs Islam - False Prophet

OK everyone. Let this be a hypothetical example of someone who is new to Islam and wants the questions answered:"So, Mr Muslim, I am thinking of converting to Islam and I have some questions for you after doing a little fact finding of my own".Islam is an Abrahamic religion in that it recognizes Abraham as a prophet and other prophets that are in the OT are also told of in the koran. This is correct?So why is the OT not part of the koran?Mr Muslim says: "Parts of the Old Testament are corrupt as it says here":As per quran :"And because of their breaking their covenant, We have cursed themand made hard their hearts. They change words from their places andhave abandoned a good part of the message that was sent to them.And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few ofthem. But forgive them and overlook(their misdeed). Verily! Allahloves the kindly". The Qur'an, Al-Maidah(5):13. Ok Mr Muslim I can understand that but which parts of the OT are regarded as un -corrupted and where is this written?

(Amy;19220)
Exactly where is it specified in quran which part is corrupted and which part is not.
"Dear Mr Muslim, I understand that the koran was revealed to Muhammad over a period of time. This revelation was from Allah - Am I correct?"Another question Mr Muslim: The koran was revealed by Allah but who revealed the Hadith"?Surely the koran has primacy over the Hadith?

Ricky W, (More hypothetical question from a potential muslim)I could wait any longer for a reply so I tried to answer the questions myself.Dear Mr Muslim here are some of my understandings of Islam:Sunna: The Holy prophets words, deeds and approvals.Sharia: Codification of law emerging from koranic principles.Ahadith/hadith: An account or statements and sayings attributed to the prophet.Koran: As revealed by Allah. Contradictions between the Sunna and the koran are always resolved in favour of the koran.So the argument about what is supposedy corrupt in the OT must surely be found in the koran and have primacy over any other statements or accounts. Is this a correct understanding?

(Ricky W)
(thesuperjag)
Now I got one question for you all muslims out there, I want you to answer this question for me please.Galatians 4:16 - Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?Much love from Jag.
Al Baqoroh(2):147 The Truth is from thy Lord; so be not at all in doubt.I'm not even surprised that you even quoted from the Qu'ran...I take that the fact that you completely ignore the question. it was a Yes or No answer.(Ricky W)
(thesuperjag)
If Allah is mighty wise and can do all things, why does Allah need two other gods (Jesus and Mary) to be with him? Surely Allah can live on his own? Surely Allah is all powerful that he needs no help?Much love, Jag
What supposed to be is this ? Are trying to say that Allah needs Maryam and Yeshua as others gods?Well, let's see Ricky, If anybody claims that their god is the right one...Thou must know that it can not lie, if it can not lie, Allah needs no other gods besides him, it needs no help, Surely he is more powerful then any of his creatures and he is mighty wise like no other? if it does lie, thou must know that it needs mens help to keep it standing. And Allah has lied numerous times...and therefore it needs men's help in building. It needs a shield that is made by hands in order to survive in this wicked world. (Ricky W)
(thesuperjag)
Thank you for the kind answer dear sweet sister in Christ. No wonder it gets into politics. It creates a clear contradictions to what their Qu'ran has said. I can answer that that was in green...They want to be the world largest religion in the world...yet it is vain.Much love, Jag
Sorry Jordan, but i have to disagree with you regarding on this. We don't want to be world largest in the world, NO NOT AT ALL.We just want people WORSHIP GOD ALONE, NOT WORSHIP IDOLS, STATUE, PERSON, OR OTHERS BESIDES HIM. We want people can go to the place we were belong, by WORSHIPING HE THE MOST ONE, NONE GODS BESIDES HIM. World is only a tiny part of universe, we don't need that at all. We want all of human as slave of God, and realize that we are just a tiny creature being that should see infront of GOD THE MOST HIGH.And again it's not contradict, it just you and others perhaps don't understand it. It sigh that you have made your own judgment before learning with clean and truth heart.Then why does Allah and Muhammed has to lie if Islam doesn't want to be the largest religion? Why does your prophet Muhammed has to ask pagans to cast down their idols and worship your god and promise them to keep the name of their god added unto Allah? Why does your god wants us to slave so badly if what you say is truth?To be quite frankly, I know where this is going.-------------------------------------------------------------------Extended Postami)
I have one question. In the Coran somewhere allah told mohammed if he has doubts on the revelations that he has showed him, he told him to go and refer to the Tora(OT). One time the Coran says the Tora is corrupted and the othertime it uses the Tora as a reference. These two are contradictory for me. Anybody who can answer this?
Yes it is contradictory, my dear ami. And if Allah says that, then it's clear that he is not God, but an idol.-------------------------------------------------------------------Much love Jag.Lovest ye in Christ Yahshua our Lord and Saviour.

(ami;19217)
I have one question. In the Coran somewhere allah told mohammed if he has doubts on the revelations that he has showed him, he told him to go and refer to the Tora(OT). One time the Coran says the Tora is corrupted and the othertime it uses the Tora as a reference. These two are contradictory for me. Anybody who can answer this?
Actually, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that the Taurat (Torah) or the Injil (Gospel) have been corrupted. The various "corruptions" (tahrif) that are sometimes used to "prove" that the Bible has been corrupted actually refer to the interpretations (i.e., meanings) or concealment. It never once say that the text itself is corrupted. Early Muslim leaders tell us that they believe that there is corruption in meaning, but not in the text (i.e., the manuscripts, scrolls, itself). There was no Arabic translations of the Bible in the 7th century A.D. It was only later that Muslims were able to read the Bible translations, and they realized that there are some things that do not fit:1. No revelations about Muhammad, which the Qur'an said there was.2. Contradiction in message in Bible and Qur'an.The first allegations that the Bible was textually corrupted came about around the 11th century A.D.

So you are saying the reason Islam says the Bible is supposedly corupt is because it doesnt mention Mohammed?? Very telling sense the Torah can be proved acurate through the dead scrolls written 100's and some books thousands of years before Christ.That it has not changed but for a few small words.As a Christian I can only think we are warned of many false christs

(yaqub;19259)
Actually, nowhere in the Qur'an does it say that the Taurat (Torah) or the Injil (Gospel) have been corrupted. The various "corruptions" (tahrif) that are sometimes used to "prove" that the Bible has been corrupted actually refer to the interpretations (i.e., meanings) or concealment. It never once say that the text itself is corrupted. Early Muslim leaders tell us that they believe that there is corruption in meaning, but not in the text (i.e., the manuscripts, scrolls, itself). There was no Arabic translations of the Bible in the 7th century A.D. It was only later that Muslims were able to read the Bible translations, and they realized that there are some things that do not fit:1. No revelations about Muhammad, which the Qur'an said there was.2. Contradiction in message in Bible and Qur'an.The first allegations that the Bible was textually corrupted came about around the 11th century A.D.
As far as corruption of the Old Testament: In the Koran the only written accusations of the supposed corruption appear not to be an accusation of corruption as a text or corruption of Gods word - but the inability of the Jews to follow God's word as laid out in the first covenant. I am not an expert but this does seem to be the assertion in the koran.

Thank you Yaqub,If the first arabic translations of the bible were after the 7th century(after the koran was revealed) how would Muhammad have learned of the Torah and Injil/Would this have been an oral or non Arabic text?

Out of the above translations (Yusufali, Pickthal, Shakir)which are consider the purist/ish?

A'udzubillaahiminasysyaithonirrojiimBismillaahirrohmaanirrohiim(Amy)
And what exactly I need to be careful about when I move to another country?
Gee Amy, is that wrong if i'm wishing you ok, nothing that hurting you and you are safely on your way to your destination ?It's a common for Asia(not only Asia perhaps) people when their friends/family's go to some where or others places, they are always saying take care, or be careful on the way etc.Don't negative on me.Wallahu a'lam.

That is because as Ricky says parts of torah / bible are corrupted but if you ask them to show you where it says in quran which parts are corrupt, they'll say that you are twisted
If I've followed the discussion correctly, The Quran claims that parts of the bible are corrupted. (we'll stick with the bible as its something the audience is familiar with).Amy has presented where the Quran states the bible is corrupted. But Amy somehow wants it (The Quran) to refute the Bible by verse?The problem with that Amy is that you have not said which 'version' of the bible you would like refuted?But I guess with your line of reasoning Amy, you would answer back with:"Well since it refutes the bible, it should state which version it is refuting.. where does it state the version its refuting?" :naughty:You see.. since there have been many versions and revisions of the Holy Bible since the Quran came into existence, its hardly a sensible request.Would you agree?The questions you should really be asking Amy is:"What parts of the Quran, contradict the teachings of the XYZ version of the Bible..?"

Hi Bruv,I understand you may be confused. As I understand there is only one Bible and the versions to which you allude refer to the language it was translated into and the time the translation was ratified. For example the King James version is the same Bible as the New International version but using language contemporary to the period it was produced.Hope this is useful, friend.

(Amy;19265)
Here is the reference from quran and you may like to check whatever version of Al-Madina (5):13 ....The only thing it dose not say is, which parts was changed, altered or corrupted.
I do have to disagree with you, Amy.I used to believe for quite some time that the Qur'an actually says that the Bible has been corrupted. However, after much careful study, I fail to see it. Before I go on, let's see a post by Amy near the beginning of this thread (#5):
Muslims should note that nowhere in the Qur'an there is even a suggestion that the Christian Biblical text has been altered or corrupted. The word "tahrif" is never used with reference to the Christian Gospels (Injil). The Qur'an occasionally accuses the Jews of altering their Scripture (like in Sura 5:13); but it never levels this accusation at Christians. It in no way implies that the text of the Gospel of Jesus (Injil) has been corrupted. In fact, the Qur'an attests to the validity of the Christian Gospels, Zabur (Psalms) and the Torah.
So, assuming that you still agree with it, it means that only the Jewish scriptures is in contention here. With that, let's take a closer look at 5:13 (btw, the surah name is al-Maidah, not al-Madinah) in context, using the popular Muslim translation of Yusuf Ali:5:12 God did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And God said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to God a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."5:13 But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them - barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for God loveth those who are kind.5:14 From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will God show them what it is they have done.We see that the Jews have been cursed because they have breached the covenant, and also they "changed the words from their (right) places" and "forget a good part of the message that was sent them".Forgetting part is easy to understand, as it has nothing to do with the underlying text. But, what does "change the words from their places" mean? Does it mean the actual text has been corrupted?For that, let's go down some verses in the same surah to 5:41:O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews, - men who will listen to any lie, - will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, "If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!" If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment.Admittedly, the verse is a bit convoluted, but it says that the Jews were actually doing something to the Qur'an: "They change the words from their (right) times and places"!Now, no Muslim in their right mind actually believe that Jews have corrupted the Qur'an. For if the Jews did corrupt the text, then the Jews also did corrupt the text of the Qur'an. Not good for the Muslim.So, what does it mean really? Early Muslim scholars tell us that it has to do with interpretations of the text, where the Jews conceal, forget, twist the meaning. For example, ibn Abbas, ibn Kathir, at-Tabari, etc, all interpret it as referring to changing the meaning (as they were read), and not to the text itself.On the other hand, the Qur'an often refers to the previous scriptures that were in the hands of the Jews and the Christian, and doesn't point out that these were corrupted. In fact, we were told to judge by it. For example, two verses after the text concerning what the Jews did to the Qur'an, it says:But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them? - therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith.This verse is important because the Jews were asked why they came to Muhammad for decisions when they already have the law (Torah)? Why, it would be a perfect place to say that they should follow Muhammad because it was corrupted. Instead, Muhammad affirmed that it was a plain command from God!Evidently, the Muslim is in a catch-22 situation. If the Bible is corrupted, then why does the Qur'an tells the Jews and Christians to judge by it and doesn't say which parts were corrupted)? And if the Bible is not corrupted, why does the Qur'an not agree with the "previous scriptures"?For the Qur'an translations, try http://quranbrowser.com. It has 10 different translations.[Sorry, had to make it as concise as possible as this thing keeps timing me out when I tried to reply. ]

(Wise Haven;19264)
Thank you Yaqub,If the first arabic translations of the bible were after the 7th century(after the koran was revealed) how would Muhammad have learned of the Torah and Injil/Would this have been an oral or non Arabic text?
Probably Oral.There were Jewish tribes and Christian living in Arabia. Muhammad had one of the Jewish tribe slaughtered (men beheaded, women and children sold as slaves). Muhammad's cousin-in-law was a Christian who read the scriptures.Also, one of the things that were available were Aramaic Targums (paraphrases in Aramaic).