All you're doing is talking and avoiding a simple question.Stranger said:Indeed I believe the Bible. But you add nothing against what I have said other than you don't interpret it that way.
Read again my reply #38. Do you believe the Bible?
It appears to me you make claims but then fail to give Scriptural support. You then accuse the one debating with you of not understanding, or being out of context, or misinterpreting etc. etc., but you never show proof of you argument. You then resort to " no need to discuss with you".
How can you prove that God is impassible? How can you prove that God didn't feel grief when Jesus His Son died on the cross? What is your proof that Jesus on the Cross was not The Son, the Second Person of the Trinity?
Stranger
The Impassibility of God.
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Well, Scripture means something to me.StanJ said:
If you have some 'original language understanding' please share it.
You revert back to 'you don't understand so you must not speak anymore'.
Stranger
I revert to 'you don't understand', when people don't understand, such as yourself, so there really is no use expending more effort and more words for somebody who just cannot understand.Stranger said:
If I really didn't want to see your posts anymore I would just put you on ignore which may just end up being my only choice, because it appears you just like the sound of your own voice more than anything else. I say that metaphorically of course.
justaname
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You state Jesus stopped being God. This is your heretical mind confusing you. For Jesus to be God He remains being God, always. There can be no pause else He is not God but something lesser.StanJ said:
Fully God, fully man.
You can talk about me, and Calvin, and the Pharisees all you like. That is only deflection and adds nothing to your argument. You would have us all dead in our trespasses.
7 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life,
8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice,
9 that he should live on forever and never see the pit. - Psalm 49:7-9
Again all you're doing is deflecting and not really dealing with the issue. Why would Jesus say "my God my God why have you forsaken me", if God had not left him? It's a pretty simple question now let's see an answer.justaname said:
If you followed your own conversations rather than others you may figure out what the issue is but again you can't and you continue to deflect into anything but the issue between you and I.Stranger said:
justaname
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Let's look to the phrase first.StanJ said:
It seems Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22:1. This is a Psalm that goes on to proclaim, "From the horns of the wild oxen you have rescued me … in the midst of the congregation I will praise you” (vv. 21–22) It can be argued that Jesus always had redemption in mind while making this statement. But it is only speculation that Jesus was actually quoting the Psalm, let alone that He was intending meaning from the remaining of the Psalm to be rendered to this brief phrase.
But more telling is the usage of the words "My" God and then emphasizing again "My" God. In this expression there is a trust being conveyed. Even in this moment of darkness and despair, Jesus proclaimed trust in His Father through maintaining His relation by expressing "My God, My God." His humanity is self evident in such an expression and I relate to His crying out after God while also possibly crying for help.
In His human suffering Jesus experienced the rift of sin between Him and the Father. Him who knew no sin, He made sin for us. (2 Corinthians 5:21) This is something we finite sinners can only conclude is a mystery. We do not experientially or intimately know the relationship between the Father and Son as Jesus experienced, neither during His life, nor at that moment on the cross with death nearing His mortal body all while God was reconciling Himself to humanity. Yet nothing in Scripture nor in this passage suggests Jesus lost His divinity on the cross.
Divinity is not something to be attained. Divinity is not something that can be lost. Divinity is never put on pause. Divinity simply is. Either you are God, or you are not God. Jesus is/was/will always be God.
Jesus never ever claimed to be God, what upset the pharisees was that He claimed to be "equal" to God. If Jesus was God, how could He forsake Himeself, and how can God sit at the right hand of God.
justaname
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John 10:30mjrhealth said:
"I and the Father are one."
Jesus is the Logos of God. (John 1:14) Divine of the Divine, God above all gods, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity, and the Trinity is one God in three persons. God is One; Jesus is God. There is only one God.
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
This does not say the Logos is equal with God, it says the Logos is God.
This is basic Christianity. A lack of comprehension or a twisting of the Scripture here is paramount to worshiping a false god or inviting someone less than God to be your Savior.
justaname
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Concerning impassibility and the OP and my brief exploration of it:
This subject is concerning the First person of the Trinity, God the Father; theology proper. God is not subject to anything involuntary, yet He is capable of experiencing genuine relation to His creation. All of His active being (thoughts, words, actions) emanates from His nature or essence. For God to be love it is difficult to also make Him impassible. I do see God being immutable, yet I am not convinced that He is impassible.
I myself see the attribute of the passibility of God more applicable, although my research is not complete. Here is an excerpt:
The doctrine of the passibility of God does not teach that God is fickle, has mood swings, or cannot control His responses. God is never the victim of circumstance. The doctrine of passibility does teach that God is emotionally invested in His creation; He is involved because He cares.
https://gotquestions.org/impassibility-of-God.html
This subject is concerning the First person of the Trinity, God the Father; theology proper. God is not subject to anything involuntary, yet He is capable of experiencing genuine relation to His creation. All of His active being (thoughts, words, actions) emanates from His nature or essence. For God to be love it is difficult to also make Him impassible. I do see God being immutable, yet I am not convinced that He is impassible.
I myself see the attribute of the passibility of God more applicable, although my research is not complete. Here is an excerpt:
The doctrine of the passibility of God does not teach that God is fickle, has mood swings, or cannot control His responses. God is never the victim of circumstance. The doctrine of passibility does teach that God is emotionally invested in His creation; He is involved because He cares.
https://gotquestions.org/impassibility-of-God.html
Well if you did look at the Hebrew for Psalm 22 you see that it is not the same as Mark and in fact the language in Mark is Aramaic. Just because you think it may sound the same as Psalm 22 does not mean he was quoting it.justaname said:
You use words like 'seems' or 'it can be argued', simply to justify your opposition but in actuality they don't.
It's funny how you can conclude this is a mystery but still have your own opinion rather than accept what the words clearly tell you? That's pretty convenient.
There is nothing in Hebrews 1:3 that indicates the hypostasis that got undertook could not be reversed at his will. John 1 tells us that the word became flesh and dwelt among us, that does not mean that he could not unbecome flesh. You are imposing your predisposition on to the text where there is no scriptural support for you to do so. If God is the God of the impossible, as Jesus said, then he could do anything he wants to do and as such one thing we know for sure is that God will not reside with sin.
The hypostasis was a spiritual one not a physical one because if it were also a physical one then Jesus never could have died because God can't die.
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