Jesus is a human being but not the one true God

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mjrhealth

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We would not know of the need to have the Word of God written in our hearts if we didn't have that doctrine in Scripture
Oh yes we would, just that many people prefer teh written letter that killeth and not that spoken word from Him through teh Holy Spirit that gives life, Here again denying Gods power.

We have some that quote scripture rather well dont you think, yet none of it is from God, all head knowledge even to teh point of being twisted to make teh truth into a lie, simply to make teh bible agree with them. We can start a whole new religion if you like, simply by quoting scripture.

It is by teh spirit we judge al things but as teh "bible: says

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

and as it says

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

no longer of the letter, no more by the flesh, no more by learning but by the spirit, that what Jesus died for,

again

Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

and that is where our life comes from Him not teh bible as He said,

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

and so you have none
 
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OzSpen

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God works where He works, not where we decide He is able to work. During the lifetimes of the 12 original apostles [Judas replaced in Acts 1] and the belated apostle Paul, there was no written NT available for believers. Did this mean that God was not already writing His Word on people's hearts? The written Bible is a useful tool but unopened and unread it will be like a hammer never removed from the tool box. It will never secure anything together by striking a nail.



So then strike down the teachings of the disciples of Christ who worked after the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and prior to the availability of a written text. When the text became available it was a good thing, but without the Holy Spirit quickening the words in the hearts of men, it was dead... even as Jesus was dead hanging on the cross until he resurrected by the power of God.




Are they indeed? Or are they simply the dead carcass of Jesus awaiting the empowering of the Holy Spirit in someone who has consumed them?

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

When I was growing up in a small town in central California, my mother always had a Bible laying open on the table in her living room. No one ever read that Bible in all of the years I lived there. I was the only one who attended a church anywhere during those years even though everyone in the house carried the label of Christian. How much Life did any of us receive from that always open, never read, Bible? None!




I agree that the writings were inspired by God. But, as I already said, remaining in an unopened, unread, Bible they remain dead like Jesus on the cross after he said, "It is finished" and before he was resurrected. The resurrection occurred through what power?

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

And the promised Holy Ghost was first poured out in Acts chapter 2 with the power to resurrect in us the dead words which we had consumed from the carcass of Jesus, which we call the Bible. This is the beginning of the rebirth of which Jesus spoke here:

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

We had all been dead, effectively born dead from our mother's wombs until we met the Master and received the quickening Spirit.


Yes, God is perfect and Jesus told us what?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Impossible? Did Jesus come for nothing?

"And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." Mark 10:26-27

Yes, for God all things are possible and who is it that is in us working to perfect us?

"To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: " Col 1:27

So then should we not now begin to understand that which a mystery?

amadeus,

I only have the time to pick up on a couple of your points.

Your presupposition about no NT during the life of the apostles meant that God was writing his Word on people's hearts, needs to be examined. We know from history that there was oral tradition that passed on the teachings of the apostles and early church. It is a danger to consider that 2 presumptions follow:

(1) Written traditions didn't happen until after a considerable amount of oral tradition. How did Luke begin his Gospel?

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught (Luke 1:1-4 NIV, emphasis added).​

While much of the 'handed down' material could have been oral, there is not an exclusion of that which is written being handed down. Who handed it down? Those who were eyewitnesses of the word!

There was more than enough information around between the death of the apostles and the complete written NT. The Muratorian Fragment, dated AD 170-180, contains a list of 22 of the 27 books of the NT. A thorough scholarly investigation of the dating of NT books by John A T Robinson concluded that all books (with qualifications and alternatives) were written prior to the Fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 (Robinson 1976:352).

Earle Ellis argued for 'a considerable degree of probability for some written transmission of Gospel traditions from the time of Jesus' earthly ministry' (in Robinson 1976:346).

(2) A second presupposition that oral tradition was succeeded by written tradition, needs to be noted. That is the transmission of the written traditions were depended on, copied from other literary pieces, like Matthew depending on Mark. Robinson contends that 'there is every reason to think that both oral and literary processes went on concurrently for most of the first hundred years of the Christian church. The writing was earlier and the reign of the "living voice" longer than we have tended to suppose' (Robinson 1976:346).

You stated: 'During the lifetimes of the 12 original apostles [Judas replaced in Acts 1] and the belated apostle Paul, there was no written NT available for believers'. How do you know that? Luke depended on that which was 'handed down' to him from 'eyewitnesses' but there is no indication that it was all written tradition and no oral tradion - or vice versa.

Your view is that 'The written Bible is a useful tool but unopened and unread it will be like a hammer never removed from the tool box'. The Bible is a 'useful tool' when Scripture is clear that 'ALL Scripture is God-breathed' (2 Tim 3:16 NIV). Seems like your view is coming from your own mind, rather than directly from Scripture.

'When the text became available it was a good thing, but without the Holy Spirit quickening the words in the hearts of men, it was dead', is your perspective. The Bible says this of the NT writings of Paul:

'15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction' (2 Pet 3:15-16 NIV, emphasis added).​

Peter placed the Pauline letters among 'the rest of the Scriptures', i.e. Paul's writings were Scripture. What do we find in Paul's writings? 'You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts' (2 Cor 3:3 NIV).

I agree with you that human beings need to be quickened by the Holy Spirit in the human heart, but I learned that from Scripture, Paul's writing.

Oz



Works consulted
Robinson, J A T 1976. Redating the New Testament. London: SCM Press Ltd.
 

OzSpen

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"Seems like your doctrine of babies and young children have no sin comes from your or somebody else's imagination." [pia]

It may come from her personal face to face encounters with a man she calls Jesus.

It couldn't have come from God because Jesus is God and God said in Ps 51 and Ps 58 that we are sinners from conception, from birth.
 

mjrhealth

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It couldn't have come from God because Jesus is God and God said in Ps 51 and Ps 58 that we are sinners from conception, from birth.
according to teh bible, sin is breaking teh law, How may I ask and a baby brake a law it does not know of, How can a baby sin when it does not know what sin is?? what God do you worship????
 
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tabletalk

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No, I pointed out that the first time we hear Him referred to by God as His Son, was when He was Baptized. He had to be an ADULT without sin, in order to become The Son of God. The way God sees it, babies and young children have no sin, as they do not yet comprehend what it is...Jesus was most certainly born of God, through Gods seed, His Word, which became flesh, as is stated....He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin, which He had obviously done up to the time He was Baptized, when He then received the Holy spirit of God to dwell within Him, the first human being ever to do that, and thereby the last Adam...Even Adam and Eve did not have that, and thank God for that, as there would have been no remedy for mankind, if it had been so...
I hope I was able to explain myself a little better here ? Sorry English is not my first language, and even though I have been here a long time, I still find that I go amiss here and there and can't quite express what I mean..

No, the "first time we hear Him referred to by God as His Son..." was in Psalm 2:7

"“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You."
 

OzSpen

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He [Jesus] had to be an ADULT without sin, in order to become The Son of God.... He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin, which He had obviously done up to the time He was Baptized, when He then received the Holy spirit of God to dwell within Him, the first human being ever to do that, and thereby the last Adam...

pia,

I'm not understanding where this theology is taught in the Bible. Could you please assist me in identifying where this teaching is found in Scripture?

Oz
 

amadeus

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amadeus,

etc.

Should we presume that only those knowing without error all of the "important" man discovered extra biblical details about the Bible and early Church history will get into God's kingdom? Should we also presume that the "little walking by faith simple Bible reading and prayer" people will be left on the outside in deciding what is or is not God's truth? Should presume that any illiterate and/or semi-illiterate believers will miss God's kingdom because they cannot read the Book? Etc.

Pilate asked Jesus, "What is truth?" He really did not know and apparently had not even a inkling that "Truth" stood before him in a veil of flesh that Pilate would allowed to be defiled.

If we do not know who Jesus is in our hearts, what is in our minds in the end of the matter will be good for what?

Also...

"And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." I Cor 13:2
 
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pia

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pia,

This is your view: 'The way God sees it, babies and young children have no sin, as they do not yet comprehend what it is'.

Let's check out what the Bible teaches. It states:
  • For I know my transgressions,
    and my sin is always before me.
    4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
    and done what is evil in your sight;
    so you are right in your verdict
    and justified when you judge.
    5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
    sinful from the time my mother conceived me. (Psalm 51:3-5 NIV, emphasis added)
  • 'Even from birth the wicked go astray;
    from the womb they are wayward, spreading lies' (Ps 58:3 NIV, emphasis added).
Ps 51 confirms that David was sinful from birth, from the time he was conceived. We are no different, we are born in sin. Original sin is a biblical teaching.

Babies and children don't need to comprehend their sin. The Bible is clear that they ARE sinners from conception. Seems like your doctrine of babies and young children have no sin comes from your or somebody else's imagination. It's not from the Bible.

The Aussie bloke from Brissy,
Oz
They are born into sin because of the fall of man, but they CANNOT commit sin, before they are old enough to understand what it is.....I know this from Jesus, as I had a child of 5 when I saw Him and she was unbaptized.
So if you want to take it up with Him and tell Him He is wrong, go right ahead...I actually don't care what you think the writings say, if He says it's so, it is so ! Take it or leave it, when we stand before the Lord at the end, we stand alone with Him, unable to point to anyone else as to why we thought, said or did a certain thing, because He will just say back:" Yes, but why did you?" " Why didn't you come to Me?"
 
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amadeus

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It couldn't have come from God because Jesus is God and God said in Ps 51 and Ps 58 that we are sinners from conception, from birth.

Do those Psalms really say that or are you adding yours or someone's else interpretation to the words?

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 KJV
"Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 YLT

The 51:5 verse seems to be saying that his mother was a sinner and that she did evilly conceive him rather than that he was evil when he first came forth. If I am in error please show me where or how?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3 KJV
"The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3 YLT

The first phrase of 58:3 doesn't clearly state that they inherited wickedness, does it?

That "they go astray" as soon as they are born would seem to mean that after their birth they began walking the wrong way and making the wrong decisions. Could you explain why you believe it might not mean that?
 
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pia

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pia,

I'm not understanding where this theology is taught in the Bible. Could you please assist me in identifying where this teaching is found in Scripture?

Oz
No I couldn't...Jesus told me this face to face, when my oldest was 5 years old and not baptized. Because He showed up like that, I had to completely turn everything I thought I knew, 180 degrees ( had been brought up in an atheist family )...So I asked Him if it was true that a baby or child went to hell if they were not baptized , and He said plainly:" No, no they have that all wrong. ALL children belong to God"....AS I just had to write to someone else. I can't care if you believe it or not as I am not responsible for what you choose to believe, take it up with Him, if you know how?
 
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pia

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No, the "first time we hear Him referred to by God as His Son..." was in Psalm 2:7

"“I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You."
That was a prophesy, long before He came....And the same words spoken when Jesus was here on earth as a man still.
 

OzSpen

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Should we presume that only those knowing without error all of the "important" man discovered extra biblical details about the Bible and early Church history will get into God's kingdom? Should we also presume that the "little walking by faith simple Bible reading and prayer" people will be left on the outside in deciding what is or is not God's truth? Should presume that any illiterate and/or semi-illiterate believers will miss God's kingdom because they cannot read the Book? Etc.

Where have I stated or inferred that? Nowhere! Therefore your questions here commit a strawman fallacy. It is erroneous reasoning.

If we do not know who Jesus is in our hearts, what is in our minds in the end of the matter will be good for what?

Which Jesus?
  • The Mormon Jesus?
  • The JWs' Jesus?
  • Islam's Jesus?
  • 'Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many' (Matt 24:4-5 NLT).
  • Jesus: 'Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves' (Matt 7:15 NLT).
  • Ex-pastor, Rob Bell, denies hell and supports same-sex marriage.This is another Jesus.
  • The Buddhist Jesus?
Oz
 

OzSpen

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They are born into sin because of the fall of man, but they CANNOT commit sin, before they are old enough to understand what it is.....I know this from Jesus, as I had a child of 5 when I saw Him and she was unbaptized.
So if you want to take it up with Him and tell Him He is wrong, go right ahead...I actually don't care what you think the writings say, if He says it's so, it is so ! Take it or leave it, when we stand before the Lord at the end, we stand alone with Him, unable to point to anyone else as to why we thought, said or did a certain thing, because He will just say back:" Yes, but why did you?" " Why didn't you come to Me?"

I have 3 children. They sure knew how to commit sin at a very early age with their temper tantrums and selfishness, especially when another child was born.

I'm very happy to face Jesus with the understanding that all people are sinners from conception. That's what his Bible teaches. I have not read it teach that children 'CANNOT commit sin, before they are old enough to understand what it is'.

Oz
 

mjrhealth

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are sinners
Being a sinner and having sin is two completely different subjects. You know here in Sydney that a person going for there P plates if they are over 25 dont need a log book, seems at that age teh government has deemed them old enough to be responsible, Some JEwish info for you,

So what does it mean to become a bar mitzvah? Under Jewish Law, children are not obligated to observe the commandments, although they are encouraged to do so as much as possible to learn the obligations they will have as adults. At the age of 13 (12 for girls), children become obligated to observe the commandments.

God has so much to show us, just that so few listen.
 
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OzSpen

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Do those Psalms really say that or are you adding yours or someone's else interpretation to the words?

"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 KJV
"Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me." Psalm 51:5 YLT

The 51:5 verse seems to be saying that his mother was a sinner and that she did evilly conceive him rather than that he was evil when he first came forth. If I am in error please show me where or how?

"The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3 KJV
"The wicked have been estranged from the womb, They have erred from the belly, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3 YLT

The first phrase of 58:3 doesn't clearly state that they inherited wickedness, does it?

That "they go astray" as soon as they are born would seem to mean that after their birth they began walking the wrong way and making the wrong decisions. Could you explain why you believe it might not mean that?

Of Ps 51:5,

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
5. Behold, I was shapen] Better, Behold, I was born. Acts of sin have their root in the inherited sinfulness of mankind. It does not appear, as some have thought, that the Psalmist pleads the sinifulness of his nature as an excuse for his actual sins. Rather, in utter self-abasement, he feels compelled to confess and bewail not only his actual sins, but the deep infection of his whole nature (Job 14:4; Romans 7:18). Moreover this verse forms the introduction to Psalm 51:6, which, as the repetition of ‘behold’ indicates (cp. Isaiah 55:4 f; Isaiah 54:15 f), stands in close connexion and correlation with it. He contrasts his natural perversity and liability to error with the inward truth and wisdom which God desires, and which, he is confident, God can communicate to the pardoned and regenerate soul.

5–8. He has inherited a sinful nature; and yet, so he is confident, God can and will make it conform to His desire. The emphatic ‘Behold!’ marks the beginning of a new stanza.​

C H Spurgeon preached/wrote in Treasury of David on Ps 51:5,

EXPOSITION

Verse 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate.​

As for your belief that Ps 58:3 does not teach inherited sinfulness, it states: 'The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies' (ESV).

I agree with the issue you have stated about Ps 58:3. However, I understand that there are some verses in Ps 58 that are extremely difficult to translate. Some Bible students have found it almost impossible to translate 58:9, especially the end of the verse. We can see the difficulty when we compare different Bible translations of these verses.

There are additional problems in interpreting 58:3 literally (remember that the Psalms are poetry). This verse states that 'the wicked ... go astray from birth, speaking lies'. I have never heard a 1 day old baby speaking lies. Have you?

Ps 58:6, in speaking of the wicked who are estranged from the womb, 'O God, break the teeth in their mouths' (ESV). Teeth from birth! That's a new one on me. Therefore, taking things literally when poetic language is used is dangerous interpretation.

Amadeus, do you believe the Bible teaches original sin, that all human beings are sinful from the moment of conception? Romans 5:12-21 (ESV) contains Paul's teaching on original sin.

Oz
 

OzSpen

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No I couldn't...Jesus told me this face to face, when my oldest was 5 years old and not baptized. Because He showed up like that, I had to completely turn everything I thought I knew, 180 degrees ( had been brought up in an atheist family )...So I asked Him if it was true that a baby or child went to hell if they were not baptized , and He said plainly:" No, no they have that all wrong. ALL children belong to God"....AS I just had to write to someone else. I can't care if you believe it or not as I am not responsible for what you choose to believe, take it up with Him, if you know how?

pia,

I also believe that babies and children go to heaven when they die at a young age. However, I didn't get that teaching from a face-to-face encounter with Jesus, but from the Bible.

I have written about the biblical teaching in, Children and Heaven.

Oz
 

amadeus

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Where have I stated or inferred that? Nowhere! Therefore your questions here commit a strawman fallacy. It is erroneous reasoning.

I don't believe that I quoted your own words or argued against your own words. I made my own statement. You of course do not have to agree. Hopefully, you will not insist that others agree with you.

Which Jesus?
The Jesus which is.

He is defined fairly well by I Corinthians chapter 13 and by Matthew chapters 5-7. How close are we to being as he was when he walked planet Earth as a man? He's still working on me. Until I have it all I try make sure He is in it before I throw away anything.


  • 'Jesus told them, “Don’t let anyone mislead you, for many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah.’ They will deceive many' (Matt 24:4-5 NLT).
  • Jesus: 'Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves' (Matt 7:15 NLT).
Very good words! Give God the glory!

Oz
I don't know the man nor have I heard of him. I do not normally support any marriage but that between one believing man and one believing woman. Of course, God's words to Hosea make me slow down on individual cases.

I believe in hell for the Bible certainly speaks of it, but I may understand what it says differently than some other believers.