Jesus never said he was God Almighty
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Helen
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Oh, a Hot Potato thread! 
It is good to see that while there is disagreement , everyone is still " playing nice". That is how discussions should be.
As for me...Isa 9:6 is where I stand.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
It is good to see that while there is disagreement , everyone is still " playing nice". That is how discussions should be.
As for me...Isa 9:6 is where I stand.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
ScottA
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Ah, I have missed so much!
The answer is...Yes, but No.
But now if we also come on the scene and speculate, we add error to error. But their error was from blindness, which we too, either have or do not have, as we proceed unto "all truth." But let us not make the same mistake of "leaning on our own understanding."
Now then, the answer is Yes...because "the End" is God, but the answer is also No...because "the Beginning" is Christ. You see, when Paul said, "to live is Christ", He was not claiming to be Jesus, He was claiming to be acting in the role of Christ, meaning..."the Word become flesh." This is the very thing that Jesus did, for which Peter rightly called Him the Christ. Of this, He was "the First" "of many."
So now we come to "all truth" regarding Christ: Christ is Emanuel, God with us...and if He (God) has come into us as Jesus promised, "and we in Him" and so forth, then for us also "to live is Christ", just as Paul experienced and claimed...in which case "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me." And this is what is meant by saying we are "His body"...and why no body of Jesus was found (which is a whole other discussion).
Thus, Jesus was Almighty God (Isaiah 9:6) "before the foundation of the world", "who was and is and is to come" (Revelation 1:4), but "lowered" Himself to the level of "Son of Man", meaning "Christ" until "It is finished" and "all truth" has been revealed to men. "Then comes the end."
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Oh, a Hot Potato thread!
It is good to see that while there is disagreement , everyone is still " playing nice". That is how discussions should be.
As for me...Isa 9:6 is where I stand.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
Helen: I just want you to know that the last two expressions you placed in bold were manipulated and not true English translations.
The short version: 1. original letters in original parchments of Hebrew or Greek were all caps with no spaces, or punctuation. Words ran together.
2. MIGHTY GOD should have been in English 'Mighty 'god' '(not God Almighty). Most other places in scripture had the casing correct except this one and a few others, purposely.
3. The translation of Everlasting should mean the 'for the age' or for last ages', and not forever and forever. Remember, Jesus will return the Kingdom back to God at the end of the last age.
4. The Father, also should not be capitalized. The 'father' of the new creation of believers is meant here. Jesus was the father of this new creation, not his Father.
Bless you,
APAK
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Jesus was in a humbled state, but He loved perfectly/was without sin. He was in perfect union with His Father. He took on the sins of the world. He was and is divine
Who then is the subject of Micah 5:2; John 17:5,24;Phil.2:6;Col. 1:15-17; 1 Peter 1:20; Hebrews 10:5-7 and the entire first chapter of Hebrews? Sorry, but the Biblical evidence of the pre-existence of Christ is overwhelming. Obviously, He did not have a physical flesh and blood body has He had when on the earth...His Father was Spirit therefore so was the Son, but of His pre-existence there can really be no doubt. Your contention is dangerous also in the effect that has on our redemption. You are suggesting that the offering made was but a human sacrifice. If it were a human law against which transgression had been made and required atonement, then fine. But the laws that were broken were divine laws...only a divine sacrifice could be the propitiation for the transgression of divine law.
Now of course we get into trouble with the trinitarians, because I would add that Jesus did really truly die on Calvary...He died the second death...resulting in complete separation from God. Trinitarians cannot abide this. They say that the trinity is indivisible. That God cannot die. Therefore a part of Jesus did not die. Then the propitiation becomes a sham...just a show that looks good, but really cost God nothing. Not so. The Father risked the loss of His own Son if Jesus had transgressed or sinned in just the minutest manner. Praise God He didn't, and gave the Father the right to resurrect Him. But if Jesus had sinned, (and it was possible for Him to do so,) then we all would have been utterly lost. And Jesus also.
God truly gave His Son to humanity. Not just to die, but to continue to be human for all eternity.
bbyrd009
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i wouldn't be trying to define God until you have found Word at least wadr
that changes quite a bit in the original, fwiw. God the father is never invoked thereOh, a Hot Potato thread!
It is good to see that while there is disagreement , everyone is still " playing nice". That is how discussions should be.
As for me...Isa 9:6 is where I stand.
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace".
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@brakelite ...
Brakelite: Brother to brother, I want to share with you some of my research and beliefs as my reply to you. God be the glory and to our Lord in the heavens. I will have to reply to you over a few posts because you have given me so much homework to do....
(Mic 5:2) But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. (ESV)
(Mic 5:2) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days. (BBE)
(Mic 5:1) ואתהH859 בית לחםH1035 אפרתהH672 צעירH6810 להיותH1961 באלפיH505 יהודהH3063 ממךH4480 לי יצאH3318 להיותH1961 מושׁלH4910 בישׂראלH3478 ומוצאתיוH4163 מקדםH6924 מימיH3117 עולם׃H5769
(HEB OT)
In Hebrew text it is Mic 5:1 not Mic 5:2
Now for my own Hebrew translation…with modern day conjunctions and punctuations to make sense of it.
“You, Beth-lechen-Ephratach, the smallest in the Jehudah tribe, although from out of you will rise a ruler of Israel, a family descendent, whose time of going out (of being born into the world) was appointed and concealed a very long time ago.” (APAK version)
The key expression here is “going out/coming forth” means time of the beginning of birth. It is saying that the birth of the Messiah has been set from the beginning of time/creation…
Judah knew that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem at an appointed time, as Christ would point this out to them later while he was earth.
It has ZERO to do with God Almighty or Jesus pre-existing before he was born. A classic case of overreach.
The complimentary NT scripture is the following:
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
(Mat 2:4) and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
(Mat 2:5) They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
(Mat 2:6) “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
There is NO record of a Jesus incarnate on earth at any time. It would be clearly an odd and crazy thought to any Judahite.
Now to the next chosen verse.
(Joh 17:5) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
The key term to understand this verse is ‘foreknowledge.’ And that John was the poetic, original language writer.
Jesus was told whilst on earth that God would glorify his son. God had planned this glory for his son from the beginning of time. God had foreknowledge of his plan and its outcome before Jesus was born.
Jesus was praying to his Father that his glory would come soon. The trials that he was enduring were becoming unbearable. His glory would be in his transformation of his earthly human body to one of power and spirit with authority over earth and heaven.
The common mistake of the modern reader is not understanding the more primitive expressions and usage of words. “I had with you before the world existed’ clearly points to the plan of salvation (logos -word) generated by God alone, before the world was ‘created.’ And a part of the plan was to glorify his son in the end. Jesus know of this plan and his glorification could not come too soon for him.
As another example, in the NT believers were given grace before the beginning of time. We know believers did not exist before the beginning of time; it was only God’s plan that existed.
The same explanation goes for John 17:24
(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (ESV)
Now to Philippians 2:6, explained this one recently to someone else..I have to cut and paste it…too long..
Look at the entire scripture area……
(Php 2:1) So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
(Php 2:2) complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
(Php 2:3) Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
(Php 2:4) Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
(Php 2:5) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
(Php 2:6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(Php 2:7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(Php 2:8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(Php 2:9) Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
(Php 2:10) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ALL ESV)
The focus of this passage (2:1-5) is about a believer having the mind of Christ given by the spirit of God.
The focus of this passage (2:6-11) is about Christ, who had/has the mind of God and never once took credit that it was his own mind and power performing the miracles and words that God spoke though Jesus.
In verse 6 it is worth noting that someone already being God would not grasp equality of being God if he was in the first place. Why grasp for something you already possess? Sounds quite odd and something to consider seriously here is verse 6..
So, Jesus did not consider himself to be equal with God just because he spoke, acted and performed miracles, because God caused all of it. Jesus stayed humble as a servant throughout and allowed his Father to work through his mind without taking any credit. He gave all the credit to his Father and our Father as he was obedient throughout.
God gave him a glory higher that any creation in heaven and on earth so that all must honor and bow to him as our Lord that is the glory of God.
Now for a little technical stuff…
Php 2:6 -8
The word ‘form’ is in Greek ‘morphe’ this word means ‘outer’ appearance, likeness, or image and not inner nature. If Jesus was meant to be mean God, there would be no need to ‘beat around the bush’ and say, ‘a form of.’ As we are ‘a form’ of Christ in mind, although not Christ. It would have stated he was God in the flesh.
Now the Greek word ‘morphe’ is usually interchangeable with the Greek word ‘schema’ for the English word ‘external appearance.’ There is no hint of ‘inner nature’ here.
It is good to find another verse describing Jesus and his outward appearance.
Look at Mark 16:12-13
(Mar 16:12) After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.
(Mar 16:13) And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. (ALL ESV)
We see in verse 12 that the Greek word ‘morphe’ is used to indicate the change in Jesus’ outward appearance. Jesus did not change his ‘inner nature’ in front of these two apostles. He had a changed appearance and the apostle did not recognize him at first. Luke tells this story in full.
When the Jews translated the Septuagint and the RCC sanctioned Apocrypha, from Greek into Hebrew they always translated, ‘morphe’ as ‘outer appearance’ and never inner nature.
We can understand that ‘a form of’ or ‘an image of’ is not the genuine article, right? Jesus was not intended to be called God here.
Bless you brother,
APAK
PS I will get another post out when I can, on the rest of your post I'm responding to..
Brakelite: Brother to brother, I want to share with you some of my research and beliefs as my reply to you. God be the glory and to our Lord in the heavens. I will have to reply to you over a few posts because you have given me so much homework to do....
(Mic 5:2) But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. (ESV)
(Mic 5:2) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days. (BBE)
(Mic 5:1) ואתהH859 בית לחםH1035 אפרתהH672 צעירH6810 להיותH1961 באלפיH505 יהודהH3063 ממךH4480 לי יצאH3318 להיותH1961 מושׁלH4910 בישׂראלH3478 ומוצאתיוH4163 מקדםH6924 מימיH3117 עולם׃H5769
(HEB OT)
In Hebrew text it is Mic 5:1 not Mic 5:2
Now for my own Hebrew translation…with modern day conjunctions and punctuations to make sense of it.
“You, Beth-lechen-Ephratach, the smallest in the Jehudah tribe, although from out of you will rise a ruler of Israel, a family descendent, whose time of going out (of being born into the world) was appointed and concealed a very long time ago.” (APAK version)
The key expression here is “going out/coming forth” means time of the beginning of birth. It is saying that the birth of the Messiah has been set from the beginning of time/creation…
Judah knew that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem at an appointed time, as Christ would point this out to them later while he was earth.
It has ZERO to do with God Almighty or Jesus pre-existing before he was born. A classic case of overreach.
The complimentary NT scripture is the following:
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
(Mat 2:4) and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
(Mat 2:5) They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
(Mat 2:6) “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
There is NO record of a Jesus incarnate on earth at any time. It would be clearly an odd and crazy thought to any Judahite.
Now to the next chosen verse.
(Joh 17:5) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
The key term to understand this verse is ‘foreknowledge.’ And that John was the poetic, original language writer.
Jesus was told whilst on earth that God would glorify his son. God had planned this glory for his son from the beginning of time. God had foreknowledge of his plan and its outcome before Jesus was born.
Jesus was praying to his Father that his glory would come soon. The trials that he was enduring were becoming unbearable. His glory would be in his transformation of his earthly human body to one of power and spirit with authority over earth and heaven.
The common mistake of the modern reader is not understanding the more primitive expressions and usage of words. “I had with you before the world existed’ clearly points to the plan of salvation (logos -word) generated by God alone, before the world was ‘created.’ And a part of the plan was to glorify his son in the end. Jesus know of this plan and his glorification could not come too soon for him.
As another example, in the NT believers were given grace before the beginning of time. We know believers did not exist before the beginning of time; it was only God’s plan that existed.
The same explanation goes for John 17:24
(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (ESV)
Now to Philippians 2:6, explained this one recently to someone else..I have to cut and paste it…too long..
Look at the entire scripture area……
(Php 2:1) So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
(Php 2:2) complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
(Php 2:3) Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
(Php 2:4) Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
(Php 2:5) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
(Php 2:6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(Php 2:7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(Php 2:8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(Php 2:9) Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
(Php 2:10) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ALL ESV)
The focus of this passage (2:1-5) is about a believer having the mind of Christ given by the spirit of God.
The focus of this passage (2:6-11) is about Christ, who had/has the mind of God and never once took credit that it was his own mind and power performing the miracles and words that God spoke though Jesus.
In verse 6 it is worth noting that someone already being God would not grasp equality of being God if he was in the first place. Why grasp for something you already possess? Sounds quite odd and something to consider seriously here is verse 6..
So, Jesus did not consider himself to be equal with God just because he spoke, acted and performed miracles, because God caused all of it. Jesus stayed humble as a servant throughout and allowed his Father to work through his mind without taking any credit. He gave all the credit to his Father and our Father as he was obedient throughout.
God gave him a glory higher that any creation in heaven and on earth so that all must honor and bow to him as our Lord that is the glory of God.
Now for a little technical stuff…
Php 2:6 -8
The word ‘form’ is in Greek ‘morphe’ this word means ‘outer’ appearance, likeness, or image and not inner nature. If Jesus was meant to be mean God, there would be no need to ‘beat around the bush’ and say, ‘a form of.’ As we are ‘a form’ of Christ in mind, although not Christ. It would have stated he was God in the flesh.
Now the Greek word ‘morphe’ is usually interchangeable with the Greek word ‘schema’ for the English word ‘external appearance.’ There is no hint of ‘inner nature’ here.
It is good to find another verse describing Jesus and his outward appearance.
Look at Mark 16:12-13
(Mar 16:12) After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.
(Mar 16:13) And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. (ALL ESV)
We see in verse 12 that the Greek word ‘morphe’ is used to indicate the change in Jesus’ outward appearance. Jesus did not change his ‘inner nature’ in front of these two apostles. He had a changed appearance and the apostle did not recognize him at first. Luke tells this story in full.
When the Jews translated the Septuagint and the RCC sanctioned Apocrypha, from Greek into Hebrew they always translated, ‘morphe’ as ‘outer appearance’ and never inner nature.
We can understand that ‘a form of’ or ‘an image of’ is not the genuine article, right? Jesus was not intended to be called God here.
Bless you brother,
APAK
PS I will get another post out when I can, on the rest of your post I'm responding to..
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all
I have another question. stranger, you said, "The Son always existed with the Father.". and you believe that the Son is God, according to Hebrews. but you said, "the Son was given a body, Who we know as Jesus Christ."
ok good, but my question is this if the Son was with the Father, are you saying that the Son is a separate PERSON from the Father? yes or NO.
PCY.
@brakelite ..more home work completed.....two more sections of scripture to go......I do have to admit I did get a great start of doing homework in full because of the nuns that taught me...I do credit them with all their efforts to keep me a honest and God-fearing bloke....
Anyway he is some more scripture and explanations that should ignite and burn your support posts of belief away...
Brother, I praise God for allowing me to share my thoughts with you....Glory to him and our Lord as my spiritual head and covering.
Now to Col 1:15 – 17…making me work a bit…..
(Col 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(Col 1:16) For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
(Col 1:17) And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
(Col 1:19) For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Col 1:20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ALL ESV)
The key to understanding this scripture is context and careful word usage in context.
The Colossians had to be reminded/reprimanded that Jesus was the head of the body of believers, and no one else. These Colossians were even worshipping angels at the time.
Now in verse 15 we read the word “image” Greek word ‘eikon.’
If I were to paint a picture of someone, it could be considered an original painting of the real person.
If I were to make a sculpture of someone, it could be considered an original sculpture of the real person.
If I was made in the image of God, I could be considered having attributes or a likeness of God
If I was made in the image of Christ, I could be considered having attributes or the likeness of Christ which are the attributes of God because Christ is the image or likeness of God
So, does this mean I or Christ are God. NO, never!
If the writer wanted to say Jesus was God, he would not have to use the word ‘image’ which means something completely different.
Now if Christ is not God Almighty, the what does it mean that Jesus is the first born of all creation.
‘Creation’ here simply means that Jesus is the first in being a believer in God. The first to be raised from the dead. The first and the head of all future believers as the head of the body of Christ. When the Colossians were worshipping angels, they had to be set right. Angels were the first of creation although Christ was the first of the body of Christ of believers. They had to know the difference.
(Col 2:18) Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
(Col 2:19) and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. (ALL ESV)
Now in Chapter 1, verse 16, the writer is describing what Jesus in creating since he was in heaven. He ‘created’ ‘all’ things that will benefit his believers, now and in the future. The word ‘all’ here is an expression that has a limitation. It is directly related to Christ being the first of new believers of God as the head of the new creation of future believers in God. The ‘all things created’ here is not the creation performed by God Almighty in all the universe of terra firma, seas, bird, and animals. It would be an obvious misapplication if used here if we acknowledge the context of scripture used and ideas conveyed here.
The ‘creation,’ the ‘all’ and the ‘things’ are used in a limited capacity. Remember the point of discussion was to get the Colossians back in line and acknowledge Jesus wad the head of them not anyone or anything else.
The thrones, powers, rulers, authorities are required and were created to manage and lead the body of Christ for his purpose on earth and in the heavens.
Now in verse 17, the expression ‘before all things’ is very misleading if taken of context and applies it as modern language and understanding.
Now the word ‘before’ from the Greek word ‘pro’ is a very ‘bad’ translation. It should be translated ‘in-front of’ or ‘superior’ in terms of rank. Nothing to do with time displacement.
So Jesus was and is superior and the head of all these things he just created and said in verse 16. There is no pre-existing Jesus to be found here. And in Jesus as the head of the body he holds it all together power.
The meaning of verse 18 should now be self-explanatory.
Verse 19 although not used to try and prove a pre-existent Jesus and that he all created everything, it is still used in vain today to try and prove Jesus = God.
It is an interesting verse though and this what it really means in plain English.
It goes back to what I have written in my OP. God is the ultimate source of power and Jesus uses a large chunk of it today to run his body of believers. He possessed the fullness of God’s power, right after his Baptism. God was pleased to give him this as the spirit ‘fell on’ him.
And therefore, Jesus reconciled himself to us and all the things he created for his purpose, since him on the cross and his glorification in heaven, with POWER (from the Jesus’ Baptism) of God. This is how he runs the show today as head of the true believers.
Bless you,
APAK
PS two more areas of Scripture and still no sign of a pre-existent Jesus or an incarnation of Jesus (or God)....
Anyway he is some more scripture and explanations that should ignite and burn your support posts of belief away...
Brother, I praise God for allowing me to share my thoughts with you....Glory to him and our Lord as my spiritual head and covering.
Now to Col 1:15 – 17…making me work a bit…..
(Col 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
(Col 1:16) For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
(Col 1:17) And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
(Col 1:18) And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.
(Col 1:19) For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell,
(Col 1:20) and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. (ALL ESV)
The key to understanding this scripture is context and careful word usage in context.
The Colossians had to be reminded/reprimanded that Jesus was the head of the body of believers, and no one else. These Colossians were even worshipping angels at the time.
Now in verse 15 we read the word “image” Greek word ‘eikon.’
If I were to paint a picture of someone, it could be considered an original painting of the real person.
If I were to make a sculpture of someone, it could be considered an original sculpture of the real person.
If I was made in the image of God, I could be considered having attributes or a likeness of God
If I was made in the image of Christ, I could be considered having attributes or the likeness of Christ which are the attributes of God because Christ is the image or likeness of God
So, does this mean I or Christ are God. NO, never!
If the writer wanted to say Jesus was God, he would not have to use the word ‘image’ which means something completely different.
Now if Christ is not God Almighty, the what does it mean that Jesus is the first born of all creation.
‘Creation’ here simply means that Jesus is the first in being a believer in God. The first to be raised from the dead. The first and the head of all future believers as the head of the body of Christ. When the Colossians were worshipping angels, they had to be set right. Angels were the first of creation although Christ was the first of the body of Christ of believers. They had to know the difference.
(Col 2:18) Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind,
(Col 2:19) and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. (ALL ESV)
Now in Chapter 1, verse 16, the writer is describing what Jesus in creating since he was in heaven. He ‘created’ ‘all’ things that will benefit his believers, now and in the future. The word ‘all’ here is an expression that has a limitation. It is directly related to Christ being the first of new believers of God as the head of the new creation of future believers in God. The ‘all things created’ here is not the creation performed by God Almighty in all the universe of terra firma, seas, bird, and animals. It would be an obvious misapplication if used here if we acknowledge the context of scripture used and ideas conveyed here.
The ‘creation,’ the ‘all’ and the ‘things’ are used in a limited capacity. Remember the point of discussion was to get the Colossians back in line and acknowledge Jesus wad the head of them not anyone or anything else.
The thrones, powers, rulers, authorities are required and were created to manage and lead the body of Christ for his purpose on earth and in the heavens.
Now in verse 17, the expression ‘before all things’ is very misleading if taken of context and applies it as modern language and understanding.
Now the word ‘before’ from the Greek word ‘pro’ is a very ‘bad’ translation. It should be translated ‘in-front of’ or ‘superior’ in terms of rank. Nothing to do with time displacement.
So Jesus was and is superior and the head of all these things he just created and said in verse 16. There is no pre-existing Jesus to be found here. And in Jesus as the head of the body he holds it all together power.
The meaning of verse 18 should now be self-explanatory.
Verse 19 although not used to try and prove a pre-existent Jesus and that he all created everything, it is still used in vain today to try and prove Jesus = God.
It is an interesting verse though and this what it really means in plain English.
It goes back to what I have written in my OP. God is the ultimate source of power and Jesus uses a large chunk of it today to run his body of believers. He possessed the fullness of God’s power, right after his Baptism. God was pleased to give him this as the spirit ‘fell on’ him.
And therefore, Jesus reconciled himself to us and all the things he created for his purpose, since him on the cross and his glorification in heaven, with POWER (from the Jesus’ Baptism) of God. This is how he runs the show today as head of the true believers.
Bless you,
APAK
PS two more areas of Scripture and still no sign of a pre-existent Jesus or an incarnation of Jesus (or God)....
I don't know quite what you mean as 'separate'. One God, yet three persons of the Godhead. Not separate as 'three gods'. But distinct Persons of the Godhead.
Stranger
Which part of Jesus do Trinitarians (of which I'm one) say didn't die?
I've never heard of this. Jesus DIED ON THE CROSS. Fully, physically.
101G
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reply. I was speaking of PERSONS. here's the reason why I asked.
the Lord Jesus is the ARM of God right... scripture, Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me".
how can the Lord Jesus be a separate person if he's God "OWN" arm?.
Pcy.
My own arm brought salvation unto me just means
I DID IT MYSELF.
Like in Ezekiel...I myself will be their shepherd, I myself will rescue them.
Ezekiel 34:11
101G
Well-Known Member
101G
Well-Known Member
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep".
Just look how Jesus say he is God. right in front of our faces.
PCY.
Just look how Jesus say he is God. right in front of our faces.
PCY.
101G
Well-Known Member
(Is. 63:1-6) speak to the Messiah when He comes in vengeance to destroy the unbelieving. Thus the 'right arm' is the arm of the Messiah, Jesus Christ when He returns.
Within the Godhead, the Son is a distinct Person as is the Father and the Holy Spirit. The Son, that distinct Person of the Godhead, became a man Who we know as Jesus Christ.
You keep wanting to use this term 'separate'. I am not saying 'separate'. I am saying, One God, three distinct Persons. (Is. 63:5) simply indicates that there is none to help in this aspect of salvation. Thus by His own arm, the Messiah, Jesus Christ, He wrought the vengeance and salvation needed.
Stranger
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