I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

bbyrd009 · May 10, 2018

pia said:
This was an instruction given by Jesus to one young ruler, who told Jesus, that he had followed the law all his life, and asking Jesus what he was lacking..........This was when Jesus said to give all away that he had to the poor, which saddened the young man ( it states ).....Jesus was making a point here, and I am 100% on board with all of us doing what we can to fill a need when we are able....However, I would not make it a law, that everybody must give away all they have to the poor at all times. Many people do this with some of the things written in the Bible, trying to force others into obeying these man made laws, while ignoring " Love others as I have Loved you"...

good point, i agree. it is the spiritual letting go that matters i'm sure. If you can be content with nothing then no worries there prolly. But nothing is really hard to be content with, at least for me. Sensory deprivation is a good test for this, but there are less intense ones too

Willie T · May 10, 2018

"Why is prophesy in the Bible?" That's a good question. Is it supposed to scare the Hell out of us? Or to remind us of where we are not following properly?

bbyrd009 · May 10, 2018

Naomi25 said:
I know, right? I don't understand where he's coming from either. But yeah...I think that's exactly what he's saying.

we are led to believe in Death More Abundantly bc that is what everyone on the planet is obsessed with, and so the Bible takes advantage of this blindness to juxtapose Life more abundantly, the authors completely well-knowing how "we are confident, i tell you, and also wish that we were already absent from the body..." will be interpreted (and even translated)

bbyrd009 · May 10, 2018

Willie T said:
We know that is not to be taken as a literal statement for us all, or else we would never hear a word about caring for our family, working for the future, and planning for inheritances for our children.

i agree, at a later point "now, take your purse" should be assimilated, sure

Naomi25 · May 10, 2018

brakelite said:
But is it what he means??? Our friend @bbyrd009 can tax the mind at times with his seemingly innocuous one-liners which at second reading cause the brain to fart and the reasoning powers to go awol. I'm sure he knows what he means but does anyone else apart from armadeus lol?

Oh! This got a laugh out of me! I so know exactly what you mean! Second...third reading. "Is he talking to me, or is just throwing that out into the ether?" "Is that supposed to have particular meaning, or is it just a vague comment in general?" "What does one even say to that?" "Can you even reply to it at all?" "Perhaps that's the point...?"
That's usually my thought processes when I read his 'one-liners'.

Naomi25 · May 11, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
i would reflect on the possibility that the Bible is taking ppls belief in a literal life after death a la Pharaohs and Ancient Chinese Emperors as a given, and using that "against" them in portraying a new life in Christ after ego death, which is meant to be lived in the here/now. Iow all of those vv that suggest some very uncomfortable things to most "believers" should be taken into account imo
no one knows where they go when they die
no Son of Man may die for another's sins
all go to the same place
you and your sons will be here with me
under the law almost everything is purified with blood
etc

Well, I'd hate to burst your bubble, but as Christians, we place "the beginning" with God and then trace history through our understanding of OT, interlaced with world history. Basically, why would you think the Paraohs and Chinese Emperors are what Christían's copied their beliefs off? They came after the Garden of Eden, after God's promise to Abraham and the establishment of the nation of Israel. The notion of the resurrection and life after death was well understood to the Jewish people, as was The Day of the Lord...that day when God would enact his final judgement upon the whole world.
I do believe we've danced this dance before. And, well, I do see you arguing against fairly blatant scripture. Repeated scripture. Pointed scripture. And I don't think just because a Christian believes that God has a 'end game', if you will, does not mean you cannot enjoy the spiritual benefits that he has for us now in this life. You seem to suggest that anyone who believes in an after life, of that Jesus will return, cannot be "living their best life" in Jesus. I don't see how the two cannot be in harmony. And going on the numerous bible verses that agree with me...well...I feel confident that the "Already, not Yet" is an accurate summation of the reality of God's plan.

hmm, you think?
"we take the exact and true meaning that God intends for us to"
seems awfully presumptuous to me wadr; i don't know the exact/true meaning of many passages right now

No, I'm not saying that we all have an infallible understanding. I'm saying that it is a more correct approach to bible study to come at scripture how they wanted us to. If they wrote a book as history, then they wanted us to read it as history, not as poetry. If they wrote it as letters, then they didn't want us to read it as prophecy. To read the bible "literally" requires us to ask "how did they write this?" rather than just going "I see here they are describing Jesus as a lamb, therefore he IS a lamb". Do you see the difference? Most people instinctively do this for most things (hence people don't actually see Jesus as an actual lamb), but when it comes to the more confusing parts of scripture (apocalyptic, for example) they try and fall back on their "literal" interpretation, but when we interpret apocalyptic writing literally, we must understand that that genre is packed with symbolism. It's still explaining deep truths that are undeniable and that teach us important things, but it is a mistake to try and be dogmatic on things that clearly are being used to symbolize spiritual truths, and have been done so before in the OT!

hmm, i dunno, i went 40 years without that lol. Tbh i even kind of realized it at the time, on some level

This is why we have teachers and pastors and the bible tells us to go to Church. Find a good one, and go. It's not rocket science! I don't know why so many Christians just go it alone these days. *head shake*

bbyrd009 · May 11, 2018

Naomi25 said:
and the bible tells us to go to Church

i'd have to read the Quote tbh, imo the Bible tells you to specifically avoid people with cemented beliefs and read with the Spirit as your guide for at least 3 years first.

DPMartin · May 11, 2018

Willie T said:
"Why is prophesy in the Bible?" That's a good question. Is it supposed to scare the Hell out of us? Or to remind us of where we are not following properly?

no its so when it happens to you, you will know it was God who saw that it was good to place you in hell. not because you slipped and fell into hell by accident.

the Lord made sure that Israel knew Babylon was going to tromp them severely, and it was His doing and will to do so.

how is it mention in revelations:

Rev_1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

therefore He is the One who casts you in to hell. no one goes to hell unless He says so, but it is He who says so. therefore it is understood by those who have read and heard this text.

Naomi25 · May 11, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
i'd have to read the Quote tbh, imo the Bible tells you to specifically avoid people with cemented beliefs and read with the Spirit as your guide for at least 3 years first.

Well...sure, it'd be nice to see that quote. But from what scripture tells us, gathering together is just sort of assumed as both important and wanted.

And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. - Acts 2:42

This is right after Peter's speech at Pentecost. The Church has just been 'born' and what do they do? Gather together under teaching for fellowship and prayer.

And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. - Heb 10:25

Hebrews stresses the importance of gathering together. And Paul in Romans let's us know that when we gather it is for instruction.

I myself am satisfied about you, my brothers, that you yourselves are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge and able to instruct one another. - Rom 15:14

And of course 1 Corinthians 12 talks about he spiritual gifts we receive and how we are to use them specifically for the good of the body of Christ...every day, but also when we gather together. We are all different parts of the body, and the body only works when it has all it's parts. If the legs want to "do their own thing", it makes the body incomplete, and the legs useless.

So, suggesting that Christians can function on their own, learn on their own...? Sure, maybe they can limp along. But it is not what God has designed for us. Only in fellowship with his body do we function as we should.

bbyrd009 · May 12, 2018

Naomi25 said:
So, suggesting that Christians can function on their own, learn on their own...? Sure, maybe they can limp along. But it is not what God has designed for us. Only in fellowship with his body do we function as we should.

imo they are really two diff subjects, and this might be illustrated by seeing that i can learn all on my own, surrounded by a crowd of ppl with varying opinions on a matter; iow i don't have to necessarily choose one opinion over another, thus limiting myself to Baptist friends, or whatever the case may be. Of course that is generally what we do, it's what i did, etc, but now i do not, and my level of socialization has only gone up, not down.

So iow i don't disagree with you, but at the same time there is an extreme end of a bell curve there that we would call "cliquing" or "clanning up" that i meant to speak to.

Surround yourself with various opinions, bam ya, but also honor how we all learn differently. Functioning is another matter, i would have said to definitely seek community for functioning, but there is even a dichotomy there i guess huh?

"outside the camp" is a spiritual concept that we are called to contemplate, in more than one place.
People can also be a distraction, and even a mask

bbyrd009 · May 12, 2018

Naomi25 said:
This is why we have teachers and pastors and the bible tells us to go to Church.

ha this is why Paul plainly warned us that those are all wolves i guess, although that isn't entirely fair; descended from wolves might be a better characterization maybe. Nothing wrong with being under servants until you are ready to inherit though, great place to prep a field etc, don't get me wrong ok.

We have politicians and government for essentially the same reasons, and both institutions have a place and serve a need

well, they are demonstrably the same institution, but nevermind

the rest of this post we just differ on definitions now too much for me to comment on constructively, but imo you make some good points.

If you post any Scripture you feel i am contradicting i will address them, but i see that you have not posted any, so what can i say there lol

Naomi25 said:
Well, I'd hate to burst your bubble

all i have is an opinion, see, so what you might burst here i am not sure of either.
i suggest that this is our chief misunderstanding fwiw.

bbyrd009 · May 12, 2018

Naomi25 said:
I think that's exactly what he's saying.

brakelite said:
But is it what he means?

i'm really not meaning to be coy there, sorry. We are basically discussing "inheritance" now, and we share a language but do not hold the same definitions. You guys are determinists, right, you believe that you could possibly declare some Absolute Truth from Scripture, and you likely believe that you know where you are going when you die, or that the Israelites all had the same clear, united notion that you do about "afterlife," which i'm pretty sure is not true; well, i know it isn't, it isn't even true today, just go ask a Jew their beliefs about hell for instance...but anyway, the point is that we are all subject to laboring under false pretenses, and the word "faith" is abused into the cure for them imo, namely by turning "faith" into "belief," and belief into absolute truth.

you guys might notice that practically speaking almost no one has "belief" any more, we all have what we consider "absolute truths" now lol, premises that we begin from, rather than end up at, right? We just still call them "beliefs," hypocritically

amadeus · May 12, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
you guys might notice that practically speaking almost no one has "belief" any more, we all have what we consider "absolute truths" now lol, premises that we begin from, rather than end up at, right? We just still call them "beliefs," hypocritically

Sometimes, some of us, in a serious discussion with someone or in a meditation all by ourselves, may recognize that we don't have absolute truth, but all of us, as you say, often act in our walk with God as if we did have absolute truth.

For God I believe there is absolute truth, but as we consider Him and think we have Him pegged precisely that is often when something comes along to bust our bubble. He has it but He will not fit into our prepared box. We, on the other hand, do not have absolute truth, at least, not in every specific. We may accuse Catholics of taking an absolute stand in their stratified rules and regulations in the things of God, but how often is it that non-Catholic believers effectively do the same thing?

What we need to believe sincerely is that God does always have exactly the answer needed for any situation. Unfortunately in too many situations we decide we already have the exactly correct answer so further communication with God at the moment would be a waste of time... and we proceed.

By trusting that God knows the Way and then leaning heavily on Him, we will not stumble even though we do not understand what or why He is doing what He is.

"Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths." Prov 3:5-6

bbyrd009 · May 12, 2018

nice

amadeus said:
Unfortunately in too many situations we decide we already have the exactly correct answer so further communication with God at the moment would be a waste of time... and we proceed.

to put it kindly, yes

brakelite · May 12, 2018

Lol, had to check what thread title we were discussing under.
There are absolute truths in God, and scripture. They come to us in two forms...statements regarding the character of God, such as "God is love" or "God cannot lie". Then we have the absoluteness of God's promises, premised upon what we know regarding His character. Such as
KJV Luke 11
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Or....
KJV 1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

brakelite · May 12, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
you likely believe that you know where you are going when you die, or that the Israelites all had the same clear, united notion that you do about "afterlife," which i'm pretty sure is not true; well, i know it isn't, it isn't even true today, just go ask a Jew their beliefs about hell for instance

Jesus had to correct some of the misconceptions of the Jews regarding the after-life. Jesus did not change what had been written. Sola scripture does come in handy when 'determining' truth. And as far as our personal destinies are concerned, there are absolute promises but they are also absolutely conditional.

Naomi25 · May 13, 2018

bbyrd009 said:
imo they are really two diff subjects, and this might be illustrated by seeing that i can learn all on my own, surrounded by a crowd of ppl with varying opinions on a matter; iow i don't have to necessarily choose one opinion over another, thus limiting myself to Baptist friends, or whatever the case may be. Of course that is generally what we do, it's what i did, etc, but now i do not, and my level of socialization has only gone up, not down.

So iow i don't disagree with you, but at the same time there is an extreme end of a bell curve there that we would call "cliquing" or "clanning up" that i meant to speak to.

Surround yourself with various opinions, bam ya, but also honor how we all learn differently. Functioning is another matter, i would have said to definitely seek community for functioning, but there is even a dichotomy there i guess huh?

"outside the camp" is a spiritual concept that we are called to contemplate, in more than one place.
People can also be a distraction, and even a mask

Well...I don't necessarily disagree with you either! I think it's good to learn in as many different ways you can...in fact it's probably wise NOT to get all your teaching from one source. And yeah...cliquing...not good, so I get you there.
And yes, I think it's good to consider other options, read critically, be open minded. You can't really defend your position until you've done those things, can you?

bbyrd009 said:
i'm really not meaning to be coy there, sorry. We are basically discussing "inheritance" now, and we share a language but do not hold the same definitions. You guys are determinists, right, you believe that you could possibly declare some Absolute Truth from Scripture, and you likely believe that you know where you are going when you die, or that the Israelites all had the same clear, united notion that you do about "afterlife," which i'm pretty sure is not true; well, i know it isn't, it isn't even true today, just go ask a Jew their beliefs about hell for instance...but anyway, the point is that we are all subject to laboring under false pretenses, and the word "faith" is abused into the cure for them imo, namely by turning "faith" into "belief," and belief into absolute truth.

you guys might notice that practically speaking almost no one has "belief" any more, we all have what we consider "absolute truths" now lol, premises that we begin from, rather than end up at, right? We just still call them "beliefs," hypocritically

Hmmm. A little wary of venturing this way again. But maybe. How about we start more at the basics. You obviously believe in God. What do you base that belief in? Do you see it as something you are "pretty sure of"...sure enough that you are willing to take a chance on? Or do you see evidence, in nature, in scripture or in some other way, that has your belief based on what you would also call "Truth"?
You see, I would say that most people who believe in God would have to start there, at the very least. God exists. That is an absolute truth that we build everything on...build our beliefs on. So...how about it? Do you see that as an AT? Or is not even that something you feel is 100% knowable?

bbyrd009 · May 13, 2018

Naomi25 said:
Well...I don't necessarily disagree with you either! I think it's good to learn in as many different ways you can...in fact it's probably wise NOT to get all your teaching from one source. And yeah...cliquing...not good, so I get you there.
And yes, I think it's good to consider other options, read critically, be open minded. You can't really defend your position until you've done those things, can you?

Hmmm. A little wary of venturing this way again. But maybe. How about we start more at the basics. You obviously believe in God. What do you base that belief in? Do you see it as something you are "pretty sure of"...sure enough that you are willing to take a chance on? Or do you see evidence, in nature, in scripture or in some other way, that has your belief based on what you would also call "Truth"?
You see, I would say that most people who believe in God would have to start there, at the very least. God exists. That is an absolute truth that we build everything on...build our beliefs on. So...how about it? Do you see that as an AT? Or is not even that something you feel is 100% knowable?

hmm, i'd say whether God exists as an AT or not might depend more upon how you define God than AT? A Creative Force is all but proven; an Old Guy with a beard, maybe not so much. Imo despising one's birthright, inheritance likely has a lot to do with the definition.

i guess an Old Guy with a beard is just a lot more likely to give us what we really want, red suit or not?
and having been raised in it from the cradle we don't even think about it any more, but if Christ was really being Proclaimed in churches we would not even be going there i guess, i mean who would pay a tenth for that lol; "Hate your family, hate your life, give everything you own to the poor--not us--and walk away from your life, and you'll be fine."

so--just like the Book says--the two have come up together, and the older serves the younger, and etc
"stay here for the present" worked a thousand years ago--ok, 800 years ago--and it will work 800 years from now, i guess
or as long as it takes us to learn that the present really is a gift

so then, i would like to present the present as a present, and compare the number of buyers to Christ's Message

bbyrd009 · May 13, 2018

brakelite said:
Jesus had to correct some of the misconceptions of the Jews regarding the after-life

"thief in the night" seems to be the chief addition NT i guess, but Jesus didn't even say that; exactly. Imo if Jesus had to correct their misconceptions it was likely bc they had recently crept in, and i guess stating "No Son of Man has ever gone up to heaven except the one Who came down from heaven" is clear enough
for the present

Christ assured them that their generation would not pass away before all of those things took place, right;

King James Bible
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Christian Standard Bible
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

Contemporary English Version
I can promise you that some of the people of this generation will still be alive when all this happens.

Good News Translation
Remember that all these things will happen before the people now living have all died.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I assure you: This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

υμιν personal pronoun - second person dative plural
humin hoo-min': to (with or by) you -- ye, you, your(-selves).

bbyrd009 · May 13, 2018

brakelite said:
There are absolute truths in God, and scripture. They come to us in two forms...statements regarding the character of God, such as "God is love" or "God cannot lie". Then we have

i'm thinking we need to come to a mutual def of Absolute Truth
again

and i invite you--also--to state one from Scripture, if you think you can.
bowling balls are always spheres

I'd like to have a calm, rational conversation about End Times...anyone?

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