JIF, allegories and parables are not literal facts. You're still taking it as literal.
Jesus Is the Overcomer in Revelation
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JIF, allegories and parables are not literal facts. You're still taking it as literal.
- Feb 24, 2015
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Warnings from Him is to be taken as literal no matter how it is given, especially when it involves a literal casting off into the bed of the great tribulation. There is nothing allegorical about that consequence for why any one should pay heed to that call to repent or else.
Thank you for sharing your comment though, brother.
JIF, Jhn 15 has nothing to do with the great tribulation. Warnings are in reference to sanctification and discipline. It has nothing to do with losing salvation.
- Feb 24, 2015
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I did not say it was about losing salvation, but there is a cutting off from the vines for not abiding in Him.
John 15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
John 15th chapter is about discipleship in bearing fruit so that our joy may be full. It is as you say, not about losing salvation, but being losing theier crowns and becoming a castaway for not abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes.
Paul touched on this consequence as disciples are to run that race for the crowns.
1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
So John 15:1-8 is about discipleship wherein by not abiding in Him is the consequence of not only losing their crowns, but being cast INTO the great tribulation as a result.
Oh ok, so you're referring to cutting off as quenching the spirit. Quenching the spirit does not equate to partial rapture. If you're quenching the spirit you are still considered to be inside the body of Christ because of the conception of the seed. That doesn't change.
I believe it's simply figurative language for the disciplining of His children, also figurative...
Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
https://www.wscal.edu/resource-center/discipline-in-the-church-revelation-2-3
Rev 3:19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.
paideuó: to train children, to chasten, correct
Original Word: παιδεύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: paideuó
Phonetic Spelling: (pahee-dyoo'-o)
Short Definition: I discipline, educate, train, chastise
Definition: (a) I discipline, educate, train, (b) more severely: I chastise.
Hebrews 12:6 V-PIA-3S
GRK: ἀγαπᾷ Κύριος παιδεύει μαστιγοῖ δὲ
NAS: LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES
KJV: loveth he chasteneth, and
INT: loves [the] Lord he disciplines he scourges moreover
Hebrews 12:7 V-PIA-3S
GRK: ὃν οὐ παιδεύει πατήρ
NAS: [his] father does not discipline?
KJV: whom the father chasteneth not?
INT: whom not disciplines [the] Father
Hebrews 12:10 V-IIA-3P
GRK: δοκοῦν αὐτοῖς ἐπαίδευον ὁ δὲ
NAS: For they disciplined us for a short
KJV: days chastened [us] after
INT: seemed good to them they disciplined moreover
Revelation 3:19 V-PIA-1S
GRK: ἐλέγχω καὶ παιδεύω ζήλευε οὖν
NAS: I reprove and discipline; therefore
KJV: and chasten: be zealous
INT: I rebuke and discipline be you zealous therefore
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- Feb 24, 2015
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I believe you are referring from another thread regarding your stance about quenching the Spirit whereas in that thread I had applied that as only meaning resisting the Spirit because we are forever Spirit-filled as a testimony that we are saved so we can tell others that Jesus is our Savior.
There is no degree or loss of the Spirit Himself in a Spirit-filled believer as per my stance when He is our seal of adoption unto eternal life; Ephesians 4:30
Cutting off in the discussion I am talking about in this thread is about being denied their first inheritance as well as being disqualified from their attendance to the Marriage Supper in Heaven at the pre great trib rapture event.
Tying the two stance that I hold to means that those cut off as in left behind, they still have His seal for why there are vessels unto dishonor in His House for not departing from iniquity before the Bridegroom had come; that includes former believers too. 2 Timothy 2:18-21 That is why the call to depart from iniquity should also be given to former believers so that they too may be received by Him in obtaining that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus of being that vessel unto honor in His House to attend the King's Supper in Heaven as this faithful saying confirms for even those left behind. 2 Timothy 2:10-13
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I understand your point of view, but being cast off into the great tribulation and spewing them out of His mouth is the same thing albeit, your reference is more allegorical than the obvious consequences stated to the church at Thyatira. All the 5 churches that do not repent will be cast into the great tribulation and if any believer do not hold fast in the 2 churches exhorted to do so, then they will be cast into the great tribulation as well.
Jesus is warning the churches to prepare and be ready in the same manner He had told His disciples in Luke 12:40-49, and so the consequences is being cut off in becoming castaways in receiving stripes as His servants to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
JIF, what you're describing is not biblical. If you are born again you're going in the rapture, and you will also be at the marriage supper. Partial rapture due to sin in a believers life is false. We get raptured because of our belief in Jesus Christ, not because we sin less. Partial rapture is equivalent to non-osas. It's the same teaching. Our testimony is a result of what God did for us, not what we can do for ourselves, as in sinning less to hopefully make the rapture.
1 Jhn 5:9-14 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
Rev 12:11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.
Rev 19:9-10 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.” 10At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
If they will be cast in the great tribulation then Jesus is speaking literally and not metaphorically. Again, Jesus is using metaphorical language in Rev 2-3 to describe the discipline of the church. For example, do you like to use allegories to prove OSAS is false, or do you pick and choose allegories based on what doctrine fits well with your belief?
- Feb 24, 2015
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What is the requirement for us as a believer in whom we are not to eat with in fellowship?
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. 12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? 13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Will God do any less for those saved believers found in unrepentant iniquity to be "put out" from attending the Marriage Supper in Heaven?
What is the purpose of the church excommunicating an unrepentant but saved believer?
1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Since Satan will be waging war on the saints in killing the saints during the great tribulation, the purpose of leaving unrepentant saints behind can be seen for the same reason if not literally moreso when God excommunicates unrepentant brethren from eating with abiding saints at the Marriage Supper.
God will be judging His House first and He is faithful in doing a good job in keeping the souls of the saints left behind that will suffer in the bed of the great tribulation. Why? Because they are saved, still having His seal, but failure to look to the author & finisher of our faith in running that race is to be disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in Heaven.
Paul hints to us throughout his letters not to associate with unbelievers, and I believe that "this man" who called himself a christian was just that, an unbeliever.
1 Cor 5:5 is saying that this man should go back out into the world to learn his lesson and ask God for forgiveness so that he can come to a true repentance and saving faith and become a real believer. The repentance of the church is also in 2 Cor 7.
1 Cor 5:11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.
https://www.easyenglish.bible/bible-commentary/1-corinthians-lbw.htm ......
Verses 11-12 Paul explains that he was talking about people who called themselves Christians. He meant Christians who continued to *sin. He spoke about:
3. the *worship of false gods. This is a *sin against the only real God. If a person does not *worship God, he will *worship something or someone else. He might trust in things that he thinks will bring him luck. He might make another person, like a singer or a man who is good at sport into an *idol. A person who does all this is not a real Christian. The other Christians should not even share a meal with him. To share a meal would make it seem as if they agreed with his bad behaviour.
Verses 12-13 Only God can judge those who do not belong to the church. God alone knows their hearts. But the members of the church must judge someone in the church who does wrong things. The people outside the church must see that the Christian *faith is a different way to live. If Christians refused to punish such a serious *sin, they were a poor witness to their new *faith. Paul gave a definite command, ‘Throw the man out’. He used words from Deuteronomy 17:7; 24:7. The Christian church in Corinth must put out evil people.
Paul makes it clear in his letters to Corinth not to associate with unbelievers, and I believe the man in 1 Cor 5 is in reference to an unbeliever.
1Co 6:6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!
1Co 14:22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.
1Co 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind?
2Co 4:4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2Co 6:14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
Tit 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Barnes' Notes on the Bible - "But now." In this Epistle. This shows that he had written a former letter. I have written to you. - Above. I have designed to give this injunction that you are to be entirely separated from one who is a professor of religion and who is guilty of these things.
Not to keep company - To be wholly separated and withdrawn from such a person. Not to associate with him in any manner.
If any man that is called a brother - Any professing Christian; any member of the church.
Be a fornicator ... - Like him who is mentioned, 1 Corinthians 5:1.
Or an idolater - This must mean those persons who, while they professed Christianity, still attended the idol feasts, and worshipped there. Perhaps a few such may have been found who had adopted the Christian profession hypocritically.
With such an one no not to eat - To have no contact or fellowship with him of any kind; not to do anything that would seem to acknowledge him as a brother; with such an one not even to eat at the same table. A similar course is enjoined by John; 2 John 1:10-11. This refers to the contact of common life, and not particularly to the communion. The true Christian was wholly to disown such a person, and not to do anything that would seem to imply that he regarded him as a Christian brother. It will be seen here that the rule was much more strict in regard to one who professed to be a Christian than to those who were known and acknowledged pagans. The reasons may have been:
(1) The necessity of keeping the church pure, and of not doing anything that would seem to imply that Christians were the patrons and friends of the intemperate and the wicked.
(2) in respect to the pagan, there could be no danger of its being supposed that Christians regarded them as brethren, or showed to them any more than the ordinary civilities of life; but in regard to those who professed to be Christians, but who were drunkards, or licentious, if a man was on terms of intimacy with them, it would seem as if he acknowledged them as brethren and recognized them as Christians.
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother, be a fornicator; or if any man that is a brother is called, or named a fornicator; or covetous, or an idolater; or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner, with such an one, no, not to eat. The apostle's meaning is, that in his prohibition of keeping company with men of the above character, he would be understood of such persons as were called brethren; who had been received into the church, and had been looked upon, and had professed themselves to be such;
- Feb 24, 2015
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I believe a born again believer can go astray for not being rooted in the word and the excommunication is to lead him to repentance; it is done not to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ when he had already known Him to be born again by at the calling of the gospel. The only thing the church is looking to from that saved believer in allowing him back in to fellowship is his repentance. He will have to stand before the congregation to bear witness to his asking the Lord for forgiveness and His help in repentance in order for that whole assembly to be informed to allow him back in to have company with any of them.
A born again believer can fall down if they "suffer a thief to break thru" of Luke 12:38-40 as He has warned believers about taking heed to His words so that they would not fall down ( Matthew 7:24-27 ) as they can claim all those "wonderful works of God" in their movements of the "Spirit" Matthew 7:21-23 as that iniquity is coming to God the Father in worship or prayer by way of the Holy Spirit rather than by the only way of the Son ( John 5:22-23 & Matthew 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24 & John 14:6 & John 10:1 & John 10:7 )
In 2 Thessalonians 2:1-15 we see Paul mentioning a falling away from the faith as happening first before that event of that son of perdition being revealed, in verse 3. Paul goes on to talk about both events as something the Lord will deal with but He will deal with the falling away first for why Peter said that God will judge His House first as He will keep the souls of those saints left behind to suffer in the bed of the great tribulation ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ). Paul goes back to how the son of perdition shall be revealed in his time in verses 4-6, and then goes back to the iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith to happen first in verse 7 that will lead up to that event of the son of perdition in the great tribulation in verse 8. Then Paul expounds more on that iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith more as it was happening in his day in verses 9-12. Then to stand against that iniquity by exposing it by reminding saved believers of the traditions taught of us as to when we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth and that was at the calling of the gospel in verses 13-15.
To prove that they are saved believer even when in the iniquity of falling down even more so, Paul goes on in the 2 Thessalonians 3:1-15 as addressing that we be delivered from wicked and unreasonable man that have not faith that not walk after the traditions taught of us but are disorderly as they are in falling down in confusion BUT yet we are commanded to withdraw from them, and have no company with them in verses 1-7, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers in verses 14-15 as they are still brothers even though they have fallen away.
Since 1 Timothy 4:1-2 prophesied that some shall fall away from the faith and give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, and why John said for believers not to believe every spirit but test them in 1 John 4:1-6, then that is why I believe professing believers living in iniquity are born again.
I reprinted all this because a fellow forum member did not believe those who profess Him would fall down in those movements of the "spirit" just recently today to give you an example how a saved believer can be led astray even into apostasy and yet he is still a born again believer.
So the "brother" in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter is a "brother" after all and to be treated as such in leading him to repentance when unrepented towards any iniquity for which he was excommunicated from the assembly for.
That is why God will excommunicate unrepentant believers at the pre great trib rapture event and why God will resurrect them at the end of the great tribulation. You cannot excommunicate nor cut off from the vine unless you were a part of the assembly of believers and of the vine.
You mean like preaching the false doctrine of partial rapture?
Matthew 7:1-3 King James Version (KJV)
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
- Feb 24, 2015
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When Jesus helps me to see that which the general populace of christianity is not seeing, and that is God will be judging His House at the pre great trib rapture event because of the falling away from the faith is why not all saved believers will be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes, then He has to help me take that stand to give that call of repentance to saved believers & former believers in getting ready to meet the Bridegroom when He comes.
You see what the general populace is not seeing, sounds like a mega church, how much i pay u
- Feb 24, 2015
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Going along with the general populace in christianity would be more like a mega church than the other way around.
I preach the gospel without charge and I defend the faith in Jesus Christ without charge since He is the One in me helping me to do this. And only God can cause the increase, brother. All I can do is ask you to pray normally at that throne of grace to Jesus Christ for help to see if there is anything that you may be refusing or unwilling to see and expect an answer that can be confirmed in His words in exposing the works of darkness you mat be in.
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The church is nowhere to be found on earth in Rev 6-19. It's all in your head.
- Feb 24, 2015
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Have you checked with Revelation 18th chapter about those whom were left behind from those rejoicing in Heaven? Remember; the second angel heralded the fall of Babylon between the 1st and 3rd angels in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Now after the 3 angels sets up the hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth.... note this below.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
So imagine all those who labor in unbelief and has come short of that rest in Jesus Christ as warned in Hebrews 4:1-11 when reading Revelation 18.
Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her. 21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. 22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee; 23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
That is why the invitation was given to come to the Bridegroom in this wise.
Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
And that is the whole point of preparing the 7 churches to be ready with 5 to repent and 2 to hold fast or else they all share the consequences of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
So don't kid yourself. It is a partial rapture because God is judging His House first by their works on that foundation to excommunicate unrepentant believers from attendance to the Marriage Supper in Heaven.
BTW the church at Thyatira can be of the Catholics, Pentecostals and Charismatics as Catholics do offer sacrifice of the Eucharist as an idol in their Mass and they do seek receiving the presence of the Holy Spirit at various times in church service as the Pentecostals/Charismatics do from which is why the Catholic Charismatics Churches do exists. The Catholic Church even referred to one of their earlier church fathers that cited that because tongues were still being manifested, it was a sign that the church was still maintaining the doctrines within her, thus having known the utter depths of Satan as they speak.
You don't get " for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived." in Revelation 18:23 without seeing the connection to the church at Thyatira.
So Isaiah 8:19 does connect vain & profane babbling tongues to 1 Timothy 4:1-2 as happening in the churches today for why believers need to repent by shunning tongues for private use, pray normally, worship normally, and read the KJV normally for their edification and chase no more after the "Holy Spirit" to receive after a sign thereby keeping their eyes on the Son because the Bridegroom will be coming soon.
Rev 14:1-5 is actually a reference to the throne room scene in Rev 4-5. You're grasping at straws.
- Feb 24, 2015
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You say that at great expense of what is written as a clear consequence for not repenting and that is to be cast into the bed of the great tribulation.
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