Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
God the Holy Spirit - third person of the Godhead
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
-
- Tags
- godhead holy spirit trinity
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
bbyrd009
Groper
- Nov 30, 2016
- 33,943
- 12,081
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States Minor Outlying Islands
Helen
Well-Known Member
- Oct 22, 2011
- 15,476
- 21,157
- 113
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- Canada
Oh agree Yes, he tried to warn him, ..yet instead of taking it gracefully , he was even rude back at lforrest!!
A statement can be made about you and me as adults, as humans, as people from Earth. Those statements would apply "to both of us" - but that does not make us "the same person".
Absolutely! But that doesn't change a thing about God, does it, whether it is the way I believe or the way you believe.
It changes the point so that you cannot argue "they are the same person" if some attribute that they both have is the same.
Shared attribute does not mean "same person" -- never has... never will
My point is that it is an unproveable thing by someone on one side to someone on the other side. God alone gives the increase. He may use men to do it, but not simply because a man decides it needs to be proven. Only because God sees the need.
JesusIsFaithful
Well-Known Member
- Feb 24, 2015
- 1,765
- 438
- 83
- Faith
- Christian
- Country
- United States
Only because Jesus is talking about the Omniepresence of God rather than the Three Witnesses within the One God to that woman.
There is every reason when God demands men to have two witnesses to give a true testimony ( John 8:17 ) and God cannot bear witness of Himself. John 5:31 God has to have two Witnesses to establish His word in creation ( Deuteronomy 19:15 ) just as He needs two Witnesses to judge any one of His creation ( Deuteronomy 17:6 ). What He commands of men, testify to the three Witnesses within the One God, because God is not a hypocrite.
No one here has proven the trinity is true. I am not trying to prove that it is not. I am simply wanting people to recognize that if they do believe it then it is simply by faith that they do so. What is it that God wants us to believe and why? Isn't that important? Is not God's will more important than ours? Why would it be His will for us to believe in a Trinity?
If it was not God's will to believe in the Trinity He would not have provided that truth in Scripture. Perhaps it is not your will to believe in the Trinity, but there are more than enough Scriptures to establish that doctrine through Scripture.
That it is an ESSENTIAL DOCTRINE for Christians is revealed in the words of the Risen Christ.
MATTHEW 28 KJB
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
As far back as the 4th century (or even earlier) there were attacks on the Trinity, and Athanasius spelled out this doctrine very clearly:
“Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith. Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally. Now this is the catholic faith: That we worship one God in trinity and the trinity in unity, neither blending their persons nor dividing their essence. For the person of the Father is a distinct person, the person of the Son is another, and that of the Holy Spirit still another. But the divinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, their glory equal, their majesty coeternal.
What quality the Father has, the Son has, and the Holy Spirit has. The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, the Holy Spirit is uncreated. The Father is immeasurable, the Son is immeasurable, the Holy Spirit is immeasurable. The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, the Holy Spirit is eternal. And yet there are not three eternal beings; there is but one eternal being.
So too there are not three uncreated or immeasurable beings; there is but one uncreated and immeasurable being. Similarly, the Father is almighty, the Son is almighty, the Holy Spirit is almighty. Yet there are not three almighty beings; there is but one almighty being.
Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Yet there are not three gods; there is but one God. Thus the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, the Holy Spirit is Lord. Yet there are not three lords; there is but one Lord. Just as Christian truth compels us to confess each person individually as both God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten from anyone. The Son was neither made nor created; he was begotten from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit was neither made nor created nor begotten; he proceeds from the Father and the Son. Accordingly there is one Father, not three fathers; there is one Son, not three sons; there is one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits. Nothing in this trinity is before or after, nothing is greater or smaller; in their entirety the three persons are coeternal and coequal with each other.
So in everything, as was said earlier, we must worship their trinity in their unity and their unity in their trinity. Anyone then who desires to be saved should think thus about the trinity. But it is necessary for eternal salvation that one also believe in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ faithfully..."
On the contrary - logic and reason still exist.
And we can all read.
Hence the OP regarding - the Bible support for the personhood and Deity of the Holy Spirit.
John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All thin 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are onegs that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one
Matt 12
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled,
Rom 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Acts 13
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
Heb 3
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
He gave us His Word -- our job is to "believe it" and accept such obvious details as we find listed there.
It's like a loaf of bread. Pieces were broken off and then after certain things had been fulfilled, those pieces will and have returned to the original loaf as it had always been. The same loaf but with different purposes. There is a piece of the loaf [HS] that is still around. That one encumpasses and represents the whole loaf and will return at the end of all things being fulfilled according to scripture....
I agree that it is a doctrine of many followers of Christ, but I would not call it essential as it is not essential to me and I am a follower of Christ. My walk with the Lord is as close to 24/7 as I am able and as I allow and as God provides I approach more closely. This is not a new thing with me. The kingdom of God and His righteousness have been first with me for many years. The trinity has never been essential to me even when I gave it passing approval. That approval was given before I had ever read the Bible for myself well over 40 years ago.
I don't and never have directly attacked the trinity doctrine. I simply don't believe it. No man has ever given me reason to do so and neither had God convicted me of the need. Do not we live for God by faith rather than by knowledge? I follow what I believe rather than the dictates of men who are not God.
Last edited:
But do all have the "eyes to see" and the "ears to hear" of which Jesus spoke? Logic and reason alone will not give access to truth. The truth comes to us through the Holy Ghost which in us is the "eyes" and the "ears":
"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
Why would the supposed personhood be important to anyone? To me it seems we would be better to spend our time on the reasons why Jesus came and what He brought to people. What did Jesus say to the powers of religion of his day?
" Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matt 23:23
"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
The details of which you speak are only obvious because men have elevated them and said they were important. Jesus never said belief in a trinity was important. As to His Word, what is that? Is it not what God writes in our hearts by the Holy Ghost?
On the contrary - logic and reason still exist.
And we can all read.
Hence the OP regarding - the Bible support for the personhood and Deity of the Holy Spirit.
John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All thin 7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are onegs that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
1 John 5
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one
Matt 12
31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled,
Rom 8
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Acts 13
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away.
Heb 3
7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:
“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
He gave us His Word -- our job is to "believe it" and accept such obvious details as we find listed there.
Everyone has free will. We can all "Choose not to see" though it is right there for us to read.
It would matter if the Word of God mattered to them. It is information God has conveyed to us in His Word.
Hint - John 16 and Matthew 12 and Matt 28 are "the teaching of Jesus" on the Holy Spirit. - and they point to the Holy Spirit as a person
But your response is "problematic" in that you seem to be hoping for "a better Bible" one that does not include the teachings of Jesus and other Bible writers that you prefer not to read. Have you thought that through??
Last edited:
That's your problem.
Your idea that Jesus gave us license to ignore any part of His Word, His teaching that we did not judge to fit our preferences -- is shot through with holes. You know that right?
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
In connection with the John 17:7,8 , the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Vol. 13, pp. 575, 576) observes: “So clearly does St. John see in the Spirit a person who takes Christ’s place in the Church, that he uses a masculine pronoun [e·keiʹnos] in reference to the Spirit even though [pneuʹma, spirit] is neuter in gender (Joh 16.8, 13-16). Consequently, it is evident that St. John thought of the Holy Spirit as a Person, who is distinct from the Father and the Son, and who, with the glorified Son and the Father, is present and active in the faithful (Joh 14.16; 15.26; 16.7).”
But did John really use the masculine pronoun despite the neuter gender of the word “spirit”? Was his purpose to show that the spirit is indeed a person? Why not reread the above quotation from John chapter 16? What is the antecedent of the pronoun “he”? Is it not the word “Comforter”? Yes, and the Greek word so rendered is pa·raʹkle·tos and is masculine in gender. Rightly, then, John used masculine pronouns in this passage because grammatical usage required it.
However, John did not use masculine pronouns when the antecedent was actually the neuter word pneuʹma (spirit). This can readily be seen from the readings of literal translations, such as the one by Rotherham. At John 14:16, 17, Rotherham renders Jesus’ words as follows: “I will request the Father, and Another Advocate [pa·raʹkle·tos] will he give unto you, that he may be with you age-abidingly,—the Spirit [pneuʹma] of truth,—which the world cannot receive, because it beholdeth it not nor getteth to know it. But ye are getting to know it; because with you it abideth, and in you it is.” Notice that the pronoun is masculine in gender (“he”) when the antecedent is the masculine noun pa·raʹkle·tos but neuter (“it”) when the antecedent is the neuter noun pneuʹma.
This fact is often concealed in Bible translations, as neuter pronouns are replaced with masculine pronouns. A footnote in The New American Bible on John 14:17 admits: “The Greek word for ‘Spirit’ is neuter, and while we use personal pronouns in English (‘he,’ ‘his,’ ‘him’), most Greek MSS [manuscripts] employ ‘it.’”
Thus we can see that Trinitarians point to personal pronouns when these seem to support their view but ignore them when they do not. A careful examination of passages used by Trinitarians, however, reveals that John’s use of pronouns—both neuter and masculine—is a matter of grammar and therefore does not support their claim that the spirit is a person, the “third person” of the triune God.
So, then, not just a majority of Bible passages, but all the Scriptures are in agreement that God’s spirit is, “not someone,” but “something.” A simple but careful reading of the Scriptures makes it clear that God’s spirit is indeed his invisible active force. In
Gender neutral (since God does not have a sex and does not procreate) is not the same thing as "not a person".
"When He the Spirit of Truth comes - HE will guide you into all truth" is the action of a person not necessarily of a male. HE will not speak on His own - but whatever HE hears HE will speak. So that person does have "His own" Word, His own thought - in addition to accurately conveying the word and thought of someone else.
We do not say "the phone will not speak its own word or convey its own thought - but the phone will convey whatever I speak into it" because that would be nonsensical.
Rom 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.
We do not say that someone "knows the mind of the telephone".
Acts 15 "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to lay on you any other burden"
We do not say "it seemed good to the telephone and to me that I tell you the truth".
It would make no sense.
John 14 "IF I go I will send you ANOTHER comforter" - We do not say "IF I go away I will send you another telephone just like me"
Last edited:
I believe His Word and I accept any obvious details provided by God. What is obvious to me may not be obvious to you and vice versa.
The choices are the Lord or mammon... not whether to read or not. Some people who choose the Lord are completely illiterate in the languages of men.
The choices are the Lord's Way or any other way.
"...but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
Being able to read our native language does not mean that we are able to see. Sight comes by and through the Holy Ghost.
"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18
This personhood of God is not written in my heart. In my heart is where God writes His Word to me. The Word of God matters to me. I read the Bible daily and sometimes God brings it alive to me. When He does not, where is the Word of God? When Jesus was dead on the cross before he resurrected, where was the Word of God?
Do you suppose that I have not read those chapters prayerfully many times? Do you suppose that I even respond to you for my own glory? You continue to ignore the important things for little things which even if they were correctly believed would not save anyone.
I read the entire Bible every year in three languages. This is only the reading. I also study. When I don't understand something or am in doubt I ask the Lord for help on it. Sometimes it's necessary to lay aside such questions for the moment, but there are no teachings that I prefer not to read or pursue. I don't look for as you say "a better Bible". I look for whatever God may have for me from the scriptures and from whatever other place He chooses to use to "increase me" in Him.
Yes my lack of belief in the trinity is my concern. You call it a problem, but I do not. So long as I am seeking first His kingdom and His righteousness what will I be lacking of importance?
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33
With regard to the Word of God, my question was not intended to be rhetorical. Many people, I believe, do not know what the Word of God is and as a result are hindered in their growth toward God. Knowing what the Word really is can make a favorable difference.
Similar threads
- Locked
