Regeneration before or after saving faith

SovereignGrace said:

Scripture does say this. I showed it to you.

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No, you showed me what you interpret the word to say
I disagree with your interpretation.

reformed1689 said:

Just before the place you were talking about IN CHAPTER 12 it is talking about the Greeks coming wanting to see Jesus, it is later in that same discourse that he says he draws all men to himself. That is both Jew and Greek.

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That’s everyone,

gentiles are all non Jews,,

thank you for proving me right

see, you still did not probe he spoke of individual people or a particular group of people (elect)

Eternally Grateful said:

That’s everyone,

gentiles are all non Jews,,

thank you for proving me right

see, you still did not probe he spoke of individual people or a particular group of people (elect)

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All people groups is not the same thing as all individuals.

I asked a few days ago what the jews used as an excuse to proclaim why God chose them

if you study the gospels. It was quite clear, they thought they were chosen because their fathers were so righteous, and because the gentiles or pagans were so evil

in romans 9, paul refuted this argument totally as he writes

10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, The older shall serve the younger.”


he used the OT to show, God chose them as a nation before the child was even born. He used this passage in

Genesis 25:23
And the Lord said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

we see here that God chose Jacob/Israel as a nation before the child was even born, not because of his or anyone else’s righteousness, and it was not because of any ones works.

We can prove he is not talking about individuals here, but nations, because esau NEVER served Jacob

if we continue in roman 9 we can prove this even further

13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

here we have a quote,from Malichi

Malachi 1:2
[ Israel Beloved of God ] “I have loved you,” says the Lord. “Yet you say, ‘In what way have You loved us?’ Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” Says the Lord. “Yet Jacob I have loved; 3, but esau I have hated....

you see here we have God long after the two children were dead declaring he had a special love for Jacob that he did not have for esau. Has nothing to do with two kids

so we can see here 2 different translations of romans 9

1 has 2 kids born, one condemned to hell before he was born and hated by God, and doomed to Hell with no hope

then second interpretation is Paul responding to the lie that God chose Isreal based on their good works. And that God chose the nation of Israel before the main father was even born, by his will, and his way (not mans, which would have given esau the birthright)

2 interpretation, it should not be so bad we attack or belittle each other, it’s an interpretation all difference not a salvic issue, no one will be saved or lost based on which interpretation you take.

rockytopva said:

Statements such as "I consider most calvinists my brother. But not you" simply is not kind and is not what the love of God looks like.

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forgive me

myself and the user in question have been at odds before,

I now have him on ignore

reformed1689 said:

All people groups is not the same thing as all individuals.

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Correct

it is all inclusive

Eternally Grateful said:

Correct

it is all inclusive

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Oh brother, no it is not. All people groups does not mean each individual in all groups.

Preacher4Truth said:

No one has attacked him not have any lied about him, yet he continues to libel me, and now is doing the same to you.

Hopefully he will be awakened to his huge amount of contradictory teachings not in line with Scripture, completely inconsistent as you've shown him above.

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I have a suggestion to make. Certain individuals are built to create controversy. Depending on my mood I could be calvanistic or armenian. And that leads me to a problem. The discussion is focused on how God works rather than how we are called to respond.

It is clear for some the emotional dispute is worth more than the subject, because without empathy and seeing as another sees, progress or enlightenment will not progress. My problem rests on Christs words about John the Baptist. He was Elijah returned or not, it was up to you. Some need the reassurance of our lostness, which is very true, and our security in Christ. Others want the cut and thrust of debate and going out and reaching others through their shinning the light within. So I wonder if some of our differences are more about what works for us, rather than a definitive line in the sand.

FollowHim said:

I have a suggestion to make. Certain individuals are built to create controversy. Depending on my mood I could be calvanistic or armenian. And that leads me to a problem. The discussion is focused on how God works rather than how we are called to respond.

It is clear for some the emotional dispute is worth more than the subject, because without empathy and seeing as another sees, progress or enlightenment will not progress. My problem rests on Christs words about John the Baptist. He was Elijah returned or not, it was up to you. Some need the reassurance of our lostness, which is very true, and our security in Christ. Others want the cut and thrust of debate and going out and reaching others through their shinning the light within. So I wonder if some of our differences are more about what works for us, rather than a definitive line in the sand.

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Thanks for the response! I'd invite you to read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James White.

Truth is not and has never been about "what works for us" but properly exegeted Scripture. The former causes truth to be subjective to us, the latter is objective truth from Scripture. The "what works for us" standard is precisely the problem today.

None of the arguments here against reformed doctrine are derived from contextually accurate interpretations, that among other issues are evidence of failing to implement 2 Timothy 2:15.

In the suggested book, if you take time to read it, will show the anti-Calvinist position takes every single text out of context to establish their position. Yes, every single one. Few of their interpretations are supported by commentary, church history, or scholarly works of godly men, let alone proper exegesis of the texts.

reformed1689 said:

Oh brother, no it is not. All people groups does not mean each individual in all groups.

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Unless otherwise stated

yes it does

you have Jews

mans you have non Jews (gentiles)

that includes every race

Preacher4Truth said:

Thanks for the response! I'd invite you to read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James White.

Truth is not and has never been about "what works for us" but properly exegeted Scripture. The former causes truth to be subjective to us, the latter is objective truth from Scripture. The "what works for us" standard is precisely the problem today.

None of the arguments here against reformed doctrine are derived from contextually accurate interpretations, that among other issues are evidence of failing to implement 2 Timothy 2:15.

In the suggested book, if you take time to read it, will show the anti-Calvinist position takes every single text out of context to establish their position. Yes, every single one. Few of their interpretations are supported by commentary, church history, or scholarly works of godly men, let alone proper exegesis of the texts.

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If scripture shows two views, then two views are real. Does love dominate or is rigidity the idol? Risking ones own standing is Jesus's way because truth will lead us deeper. It takes faith. Everything is under His sovereign will. He raises up and He brings down.

And we are given an opportunity to testify, to shine with His love despite opposition. This matters more, to lose because one has victory. God bless you

Eternally Grateful said:

Unless otherwise stated

yes it does

you have Jews

mans you have non Jews (gentiles)

that includes every race

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And race does not equal individual. ALL it means is that the Jews were not the only ones chosen for salvation

Preacher4Truth said:

Thanks for the response! I'd invite you to read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James White.

Truth is not and has never been about "what works for us" but properly exegeted Scripture. The former causes truth to be subjective to us, the latter is objective truth from Scripture. The "what works for us" standard is precisely the problem today.

None of the arguments here against reformed doctrine are derived from contextually accurate interpretations, that among other issues are evidence of failing to implement 2 Timothy 2:15.

In the suggested book, if you take time to read it, will show the anti-Calvinist position takes every single text out of context to establish their position. Yes, every single one. Few of their interpretations are supported by commentary, church history, or scholarly works of godly men, let alone proper exegesis of the texts.

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Try the book, " Why I am not a Calvinist" instead.

Preacher4Truth said:

Thanks for the response! I'd invite you to read The Potters Freedom by Dr. James White.

Truth is not and has never been about "what works for us" but properly exegeted Scripture. The former causes truth to be subjective to us, the latter is objective truth from Scripture. The "what works for us" standard is precisely the problem today.

None of the arguments here against reformed doctrine are derived from contextually accurate interpretations, that among other issues are evidence of failing to implement 2 Timothy 2:15.

In the suggested book, if you take time to read it, will show the anti-Calvinist position takes every single text out of context to establish their position. Yes, every single one. Few of their interpretations are supported by commentary, church history, or scholarly works of godly men, let alone proper exegesis of the texts.

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My problem is emotional with Calvin and all who would kill another for belief systems.

The reformation killed millions. So I can listen to those with a gentle heart. Loving ones enemy understands how they work and why they fail. All positions have a personal story and enemies can be friends and friends enemies. Testing times often shows who are who. And on forums this has proven true. Some enemies think they are friends because of polarised opposition and some trauma. God bless you

FollowHim said:

My problem is emotional with Calvin and all who would kill another for belief systems.

The reformation killed millions. So I can listen to those with a gentle heart. Loving ones enemy understands how they work and why they fail. All positions have a personal story and enemies can be friends and friends enemies. Testing times often shows who are who. And on forums this has proven true. Some enemies think they are friends because of polarised opposition and some trauma. God bless you

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Then don't focus on Calvin. I was "Calvinist" long before I ever heard of John Calvin, much less read John Calvin. In fact, I do not like calling myself a Calvinist because of the baggage that comes with it (deserved or not) and also I do not agree with Calvin on everything.

FollowHim said:

My problem is emotional with Calvin and all who would kill another for belief systems.

The reformation killed millions. So I can listen to those with a gentle heart. Loving ones enemy understands how they work and why they fail. All positions have a personal story and enemies can be friends and friends enemies. Testing times often shows who are who. And on forums this has proven true. Some enemies think they are friends because of polarised opposition and some trauma. God bless you

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That was the culture at that time. There were all the inquisitions where the RCC killed millions, iirc. Ppl viewed those who they deemed heretics worthy of death. It’s not just a John Calvin thing. I’m not defending that practice, but that was the culture of that time.

reformed1689 said:

Then don't focus on Calvin. I was "Calvinist" long before I ever heard of John Calvin, much less read John Calvin. In fact, I do not like calling myself a Calvinist because of the baggage that comes with it (deserved or not) and also I do not agree with Calvin on everything.

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I don’t have a problem being labeled a Calvinist. I tell ppl I am a five point Calvinist. It’s gives them a bullseye to aim at.

friend of said:

When does one become Regenerated? Does it happen before in order to empower us to believe or does it happen after we believe?

Play nice

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the moment we are saved

friend of said:

Okay so the Clavinist teaching that you have to be regenerated before coming to faith in Christ is in fact error.

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agreed